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Ulthien
Posted - 2006.03.27 13:27:00 - [1]
 

Well after relatively nicely training in diverse skills and equipping a kestrel and catalyst, me and wife endeavored to play together the eve online.

We both are veterans of MMORPGs, even having met online in Diablo in 1996, then went to UO, EQ, etc.

There are 2 areas of interaction with Eve-universe that give us trouble/are unsatisfactory:

a) GUI

I am a high tech computer engineer for the last 30 yrs. The mechanics of ship equipping/optimizing and using it through the UI is backward. Many things are missing or are difficult to use/find.

example 1) weapons optimal range: you have to click several times PER turret to read it out. Would not a graphics diagram with optimal distance that appears on click over the weaponry be more useful?

example 2) when being in a gang, you have to explicitly TELL them to what system you gate. Buddy list does not say where he/she is. If someone is afk, you have to verbally/textually negotiate your travels (!?). Talk about backward technology.

GUI is at the feel level of having to work with 2 finger per hand broken (deliberately).

b) world activites - whats to do:

Most of the activities are cut for a solo player: mine, travel, missions are all solo-oriented. I ganged with my wife likes we do in all games to cooperate. We had nice 2 ships. Then we warped around for ages to find a single rat to kill (took us an hour in .7 system) as most places including deadzones were camped, and there was nothing to do.

So, activities in gang = hang + wait, no action or contents.

==================================================================================

Due to the 2 abovementioned areas, EVE will always stay a game with below 30k active users. Due to complexity of using the interface, only more intelligent people will even attampt to stay, so the quality of players might be higher than usual web leet dood today which IS a +.

Nonetheless, the activity level will stay the "Dark Star" observatory:
..hang in space or travel, wait for something to happen (for ages). No, thank you.

This is Ulthien, signing off... *bleep*

DOGNOSH
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2006.03.27 13:38:00 - [2]
 

hope this makes you stay ;) (software engineer here too ;) )

a) GUI
1)use tactical overlay,no clicking required once on ;)
2)fair point but our lot always(100%) use teamspeak ! no typng needed and warfare tactics can be told quickly and easily :)
b)world
wow !
i do solo missions or missions with buddies where we share loot equally and we hunt too,so much to do in EVE i can't believe you can't see them :)
===============
30K players is a world record so i don't know what you are saying?Shocked
only game i know of where the universe is on one shard only and not multiple/regional servers

i have been here for 6 weeks and have subed for a year already and started a 2nd accountCool

R Dan
Infinite Improbability Inc
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2006.03.27 14:12:00 - [3]
 

Been with Eve now for 2.5 years :D

so:
1) optimal range etc.
theres a button labelled "tactical overlay" which shows ou your max lock range, and then when you hover your mouse over a module or gun shows you 1) its optimal and 2 its max fall off.
That should have you sorted :)
-and tbh afer a while you know what range your guns work best at with which ammo :)

2) move location
because Eve has no instancing there are areas/times where the nice bits are camped by people trying to do what you want too. I'd reconmend moving to another area, why? -because your probably still arround an area frequented by alot of newer players (like yourselves) which means that its artifically busy.

so load up the map. turn sec status / DED report on, and go for another system of the same security (or one with a sec rating you feel comfortable with (lower = harder)) or one with a complex you think you can take (you probably dont want anything harder than a 3/10 tbh)

As for this game being solo - oh hell no!
most of thethings I do require at least 1 more player to do them :)
be this Level 4 missions (normally me in raven corp mate in zealot as a standard, but having more friends along means the missions go faster! and safer)
or PvP - which can be a tough life on yourown.
to the big complexes - where an 8/10 complex once managed to kill 5 of my buddies in the time it took for me to log out and back in again (dont ask how)


hopefully thes have answered your questions. and maybe convinced you to stay.
Dan.


Xascor
Organized Combat Consortium
Posted - 2006.03.27 14:23:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Ulthien
example 2) when being in a gang, you have to explicitly TELL them to what system you gate. Buddy list does not say where he/she is. If someone is afk, you have to verbally/textually negotiate your travels (!?). Talk about backward technology.
This game is PvP first. If you could locate the system a player was in just by ganging with them it could and would be abused. It's not like it's that hard to ask anyways.

Buddy lists are used for more than just "friends" in EVE. They are a way of keeping track of enemies. Again, if the buddy list showed you their locations it would play havok for PvP.

It's not backwards technology. It's limiting technology to require human interaction. I think that's a good thing in a MMORPG.

Jobie Thickburger
Gallente
StateCraft Industries
Posted - 2006.03.27 14:25:00 - [5]
 

Quote:
We both are veterans of MMORPGs, even having met online in Diablo in 1996, then went to UO, EQ, etc.


Could that be the problem?

1) as the above poster pointed out, thats exactly what the tactical overlay does! You mouseover your turret, and it shows you the optimal + Max range (I think, Don't use Tactical Overview, A miner by trade...)

2)Teamspeak works well to solve this probem, although still you have to Communicate. COMMUNICATION is key in doing stuff. Haven't played another game where you actually showed you where someone was going, how they were going there, where they were... Of coures, Only been a Vet of EQ, Wow, EQ2 (still play off and on), Guild Wars...

B) most of the activities are cut to be ABLE to be done by a solo player. How many gripes do you remeber hearing about EQ not being able to be soloed at higher lvls? (Unless you were a necro, but I digress.) Not sure what a Kestrel is, (pretty sure its a frig, will look it up in a min) but With a catalyst in the group, as long as you have the skills, You should be able to handel ratting in .5 systems. There you will find a lot less people hunting rats, as well as a greater number of them. Noticed you were hunting in .7 space wich is really tame, .5 brings in a lot more rats w/o the risk of many PvP Pirates.

This is probally one of those 50.3% quotes, not resarched etc, but was told that WoW had a population of 5 million accounts. Not sure how many of these is an active account, but I'm sure not at 5 million, shoot, Most of that is brand loyalty any way! Was the same way about EQ when the other games came out. Anyhow, unless Blizzard (which I doubt) has highly upgraded their servers, If they can fit 30k people on one server, than I would think their entire system would crash. After seeing how the game would lag b/c there was a major battle on the other side of the world... Fleet battles happen all the time in eve and you would never know

Kylania
Gallente
Phoenix Industries
Sylph Alliance
Posted - 2006.03.27 14:54:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Ulthien

example 1) weapons optimal range: you have to click several times PER turret to read it out. Would not a graphics diagram with optimal distance that appears on click over the weaponry be more useful?


So the game sucks because you couldn't find the tactical overlay? Or can't rclick on your weapon once in dock and remember what your optimal range is? Oook... As others said, Tac Overlay does exactly what you said you wanted to be able to do.

Originally by: Ulthien

example 2) when being in a gang, you have to explicitly TELL them to what system you gate. Buddy list does not say where he/she is. If someone is afk, you have to verbally/textually negotiate your travels (!?). Talk about backward technology.



Name me one single game that's ever been made that allows you to move an AFK player across multiple zones in a group. What is this amazing forward technology game where you're able to move muplitple characters effortlessly anywhere in the gameworld without having to guide the other players in any way.

Try telling your wife to pay attention and learn to play the game. Being AFK in EVE Online is like asking to die. If you're not paying attention and guiding your character, you shouldn't be online.

The buddy list doesn't show where people are because EVE is a PvP game. Hunting down others is a big part of, there are location agents that tell you where people are but to really find someone takes work, like it should.

Originally by: Ulthien

Most of the activities are cut for a solo player: mine, travel, missions are all solo-oriented. I ganged with my wife likes we do in all games to cooperate. We had nice 2 ships. Then we warped around for ages to find a single rat to kill (took us an hour in .7 system) as most places including deadzones were camped, and there was nothing to do.

So, activities in gang = hang + wait, no action or contents.



What you're describing is spending ages standing in the starter town of Tristram looking for something to kill in Diablo than saying the game sucks because you couldn't find anything. There are 5300+ systems in EVE Online, and because you couldn't find more than one rat in a 0.7 system you think there's nothing to do? The game isn't meant to be played AFK ratting in a newbie system. There's plenty of content in EVE, you just didn't do any of it. Content isn't handed to you, you need to go out to it.

Originally by: Ulthien

Due to the 2 abovementioned areas, EVE will always stay a game with below 30k active users. Due to complexity of using the interface, only more intelligent people will even attampt to stay, so the quality of players might be higher than usual web leet dood today which IS a +.



I sure hope only intelligent people even attempt to stay. And as you pointed out, only people that take the time to learn the game and put effort into it will stay too. It's a shame you didn't do either. You've missed out on a tremendous amount of EVE by expecting it to be as dumbed down as a Diablo/WoW clone. As with any game, EVE is only worth what you put into it, and you my friend put nothing into EVE judging by your complaints.

You're missing out on a tremendous amount of the EVE Online world, but keep in mind content will not be spoonfed to you, you'll need to put in effort to put yourself in situtations where you can access that content. Missions, mining, PvP, player corps. It's all Risk vs Reward, get out there and risk something and I think you'll see that EVE is a completely different game compared to what you and your wife saw in your first few days. From your post though, you seem to expect the rewards to be handed to you without having to put forth any effort, which simply won't happen in EVE.

Ulthien
Posted - 2006.03.27 15:15:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Ulthien on 27/03/2006 15:17:50
Edited by: Ulthien on 27/03/2006 15:16:36
Originally by: Kylania
There's plenty of content in EVE, you just didn't do any of it. Content isn't handed to you, you need to go out to it.



Thank you for a typical fanboi post, Kylania. I retract the compliment about IQ of a typical EVE user.

Well i both researched and looked around for a week. I found 1 system .5 rating i was OK to hunt with my destroyer, but i cant invite my wife in fregate to get locked/destroyed there "for fun".

IF this game cannot lock my attention by offering rewards vs. investment, it does not generate fun for me as gameplayer. And i do write and play games for longer then most of you live :)

Will check again tactical display, think i remember it from tutorial.

Btw, GUI as well: you cannot enlarge the font for bigger LCD displays at all?

[still a click away from 'quit'. A game that does not motivate you after a week of playing is not much of fun.]
Sorry to not be a fanboi. Thanks much all for elaborate responses!

DOGNOSH
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2006.03.27 15:20:00 - [8]
 

evemail me(dognosh) and i will give you ideas about the fontsize(including replacement fonts that i don't think i can show you here,might not be allowed)

also if you got teamspeak you guys can join us and we can help,most of us on TS are not playing together,just doing our own thing,we use TS to plan things or just help each other out Cool

Tabet Saens
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
Brutally Clever Empire
Posted - 2006.03.27 15:31:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Ulthien
Edited by: Ulthien on 27/03/2006 15:17:50

Thank you for a typical fanboi post, Kylania. I retract the compliment about IQ of a typical EVE user.


woah that's rude.

Originally by: Ulthien

Well i both researched and looked around for a week. I found 1 system .5 rating i was OK to hunt with my destroyer, but i cant invite my wife in fregate to get locked/destroyed there "for fun".


Why can't you invite your wife? .5 systems are very fun to adventure in and fight rats. 2 frigs or 1 destroyer/frig should be totally kick ass in .5 space.

Originally by: Ulthien

IF this game cannot lock my attention by offering rewards vs. investment, it does not generate fun for me as gameplayer.



Um, well we all have preferences. But from my experiences so far, this game does very much offer rewards vs investment. The more quality time you put in, the better you get. The better you get, the harder stuff you can take on. But hey, it's not my job to convince you that the game is fun. If it isn't, it isn't.

Originally by: Ulthien

And i do write and play games for longer then most of you live :)


Why does that matter? What on earth does that have to do with anything? If maturity is what you're trying to prove, do it thru your actions. Statements like these do nothing and cannot be proven. A 60yr old, acting like a child, will be treated like a child.

Originally by: Ulthien

Sorry to not be a fanboi.


Sorry to burst your bubble, but I doubt anyone cares. I'm no fanboi either, but calling anyone who disagrees with you a "fanboi" is pretty lame.

Girdan Keirge
Black Thorne Corporation
Black Thorne Alliance
Posted - 2006.03.27 15:44:00 - [10]
 

Everyone else is spot on in their comments and I don't really have much to add in that regard, but I was wondering if you did the tutorial?

The info about the tactital overlay is shown to you pretty early on.
I know that people who are experienced in MMO's tend to hate tutorials because they are usually so basic and treat you like you don't know how to put on your pants, but in EVE, the tutorial is a must.
It doesn't tell you everything about the game but it gives you pretty much all the info you need to get started.
After that, your corp chat is pretty much the best place to ask questions, as the 'newbie help' channel tends to be flooded with questions and it can be quite a task to find the answer to your question with all that text scrolling by at 28.8kbs.
And you've obviously found the forums too, so that's a good place to get info. Read the stickies and browse the topics and see if you find anything you need to know.

There's also a nice reward at the end of the 8 mission tutorial arc.
You can use it or sell it for anwhere from 600k-2mil isk depending on what you get.

Oh, and about gang warping, I haven't spent much time in a gang, but I've been both the 'leader' and a Regular Joe.
When I was the leader, I thought there was a 'warp gang' function that would warp everyone together.
When I was Joe Nobody, I thought there was a 'warp to gang' function too.
I'm guessing that they may not work if you are not in the same system though.
Next time you play, gang up and right click in space and see if those options are there.
Like I said, I haven't had much gang experience, so I may be wrong, especially since no one else has mentioned it.
Also, if the Mrs. is afk for a minute and you want to travel, she should be using the autopilot function.
Set the destination and hit the little 'A' on the lower left of the tac readout and walk away.
It will only take you to the system and not a specific place, but it requires no input from the afk player.
Be advised that this can be a dangerous way to travel, so don't use it in low sec space, as that's just asking to wake up in a clone.
As you gain experience, you will learn what is and isn't safe to do. AFK or even ATK.

Ah, last thing, since I just brought it up, right click is your best friend.
I know the gui can be kind of odd, but right click can help you out a lot.
For almost every funtion in EVE, there are at least 2 ways to do things, so don't be confused if you ask a question and get a couple of different answers, as they both may be correct, just the user's preference.

Wild Fox
Posted - 2006.03.27 17:18:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Ulthien

There are 2 areas of interaction with Eve-universe that give us trouble/are unsatisfactory:

a) GUI

I am a high tech computer engineer for the last 30 yrs. The mechanics of ship equipping/optimizing and using it through the UI is backward. Many things are missing or are difficult to use/find.



I agree. GUI in Eve is just plain bad, sometimes bordering on ******ed. You do get used to it, somewhat, as time goes by, but it's still bad.

My latest peeve about the GUI -- it has windows and the concept of focus. But it does NOT show which window has focus! That by itself is cause to fail Interface Design 101...

Why does it matter? Well, let's say I'm in a fight and manoeuvring in space. I double-click on space background to change the direction of my movement. Will it work? Maybe. There i s NO WAY TO TELL. Why? Because if the background has focus at this particular time, the double-click will work and my ship will turn. But if the overview window has focus (and you can't tell by looking at it whether it has focus or not), then the double-click will just move focus to the background and my ship will NOT turn.

Originally by: Ulthien

example 2) when being in a gang, you have to explicitly TELL them to what system you gate. Buddy list does not say where he/she is. If someone is afk, you have to verbally/textually negotiate your travels (!?). Talk about backward technology.



That problem of yours is intended. The gameplay of Eve depends, to a certain degree, on travel being somewhat long and on the lack of global search for a person. In other words, you can hide. This is a deliberate design choice.

Originally by: Ulthien

Most of the activities are cut for a solo player: mine, travel, missions are all solo-oriented. I ganged with my wife likes we do in all games to cooperate. We had nice 2 ships. Then we warped around for ages to find a single rat to kill (took us an hour in .7 system) as most places including deadzones were camped, and there was nothing to do.


Here you are just wrong. Mining is definitely not solo-oriented. Even for mining in high-sec you want two people -- one to mine and one to haul ore. For mining in low-sec you want even more people because you need to have armed escorts, basically.

Travel is just travel, it's not an activity :-)

Missions can be done solo or can be done duo -- obviously the two of you can handle harder missions. For example Level 2 missions generally assume you are in a cruiser. But if you are duoing, most if not all of Level 2 missions are doable by a pair of frigates.

As to not being able to find rats, I don't understand your problems. I never have trouble finding rats -- on the average I find a rat spawn per 2-3 belts that I visit. In a system with 10 belts I would expect to find 3-4 rat spawns.

Of course, if there are three more players ratting in the same system, your chances of getting a spawn are much less :-) So don't hang around in heavily populated systems, travel a bit, find places less frequented.

Note that if a system is clean of rats it's not worthwhile to wait for them to respawn -- warp to a different system and look there. With two frigates you should be ratting in 0.5 systems, by the way...

HTH YMMV

Jobie Thickburger
Gallente
StateCraft Industries
Posted - 2006.03.27 19:34:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Ulthien
Edited by: Ulthien on 27/03/2006 15:17:50
Edited by: Ulthien on 27/03/2006 15:16:36
Originally by: Kylania
There's plenty of content in EVE, you just didn't do any of it. Content isn't handed to you, you need to go out to it.



Thank you for a typical fanboi post, Kylania. I retract the compliment about IQ of a typical EVE user.




Typical Fanboi responce of a WoW/Eq addict. I know, Was one for 5 years.... Goood times... good times....

Quote:

Well i both researched and looked around for a week. I found 1 system .5 rating i was OK to hunt with my destroyer, but i cant invite my wife in fregate to get locked/destroyed there "for fun".



THAT IS THE FUN! The chance of Dieing, and actually losing stuff rather than taking "damage" is one of the things I love about this game! You have no Idea how many times I've gotten over my head, and enjoyed it. That slim chance that you may win is whats fun! (Just think back to EQ, Your warrior has 20% health, Cleric is out of Mana, and the enemy is hitting you just as hard as you are hitting him, and he is at 22% health. DO you run? Or do you fight it out??)
Also, look harder, there's tons of .5 systems out there, not just one. Not sure where the link is mabey someone can help me, but there is a guy who has really good 2d maps that will help you find one

Quote:

IF this game cannot lock my attention by offering rewards vs. investment, it does not generate fun for me as gameplayer. And i do write and play games for longer then most of you live :)



Its cool that you write games, Hope to get into that kinda stuff one day myself. But remember, YOU DIDN'T WRITE THIS ONE! Remember, this isn't your dream of a game, its someone elses, either you love it or hate it, as any other game.

Quote:

Will check again tactical display, think i remember it from tutorial.



Pretty sure thats what you wanted, If not mabey someone else can help ya in game, or w/ a mod or something

Quote:

Btw, GUI as well: you cannot enlarge the font for bigger LCD displays at all?

I seem to remember there being font size buttons in the chat box, only 3 sizes, small med and Freakin Huge, but that may be what you need, assuming you are playing in 1600x1200 or some high widescreen res.

Quote:

[still a click away from 'quit'. A game that does not motivate you after a week of playing is not much of fun.]
Sorry to not be a fanboi. Thanks much all for elaborate responses!


Hate ta see ya go, but really won't affect me much in the end.


Oh yea, Why is there such communication problems w/ your wife? My parents when they play EQ have both computers in the same room to aid w/ that. Of course, if you two are far apart (assuming thats what it is) try using Teamspeak (more popular) or Skype (more like a phone service, but much better quality)

BlackMoon Thrawn
Stimulus
Posted - 2006.03.27 19:59:00 - [13]
 

I haven't used the Caldari ships but while training learnings i ratted in a 0.5 most days. I flew a Rifter with very basic skills (small projectile level 1, rockets level 1 you get the picture). This was solo btw.

I would suggest you try to find a corp that fits your style of play. There are many out there that are happy to help newbies, once you are in a player corp you can use the map interface to see where your corpmates are. Also on the map you can color the stars by # of players use this and other settings to find yourself some nice systems with lots of belts and fewer players. It may take some time but its well worth it.

You will find that most things in EVE that are worthwhile take some time to setup, E.G. trading,mining and ratting. The more you put into it the more you get out of it.

Neckbone
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2006.03.27 20:04:00 - [14]
 

Quote:
Thank you for a typical fanboi post, Kylania. I retract the compliment about IQ of a typical EVE user.


Because you didn't like one reply from 30000 active players? Wow. It's really going to be upsetting if you quit playing. Really.

Quote:
Well i both researched and looked around for a week. I found 1 system .5 rating i was OK to hunt with my destroyer, but i cant invite my wife in fregate to get locked/destroyed there "for fun".


I can't take my frigate (Rifter) ratting in 0.5 space, either. BECAUSE IT'S TOO FRACKING BORING. In order to get a challenge out of my frigate, I have to take on level 2 agent kill missions. Most of those are too easy, but occasionally I find one that's a rush.


Quote:
IF this game cannot lock my attention by offering rewards vs. investment, it does not generate fun for me as gameplayer. And i do write and play games for longer then most of you live :)


You might want to double check the average age of the EVE player before spouting that, unless you're like... 50 and helped design the Atari.

R Dan
Infinite Improbability Inc
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2006.03.27 20:31:00 - [15]
 

I, and many others in this thread have tried to help.
but basically EVE is not for everyone, it cant cater for everyone and still be the game that #i love to play and have done for the last few years.

OK, so you dont like its GUI - I hated WOW's
so you dont use the tools that CCP have provided for you (btw we didnt have tactical display when i was new - we had to remember the optimals ....not all that hard tbh, you should be using all gun slots with the same gun at any one time same 150mm rails, to aid damage output) - fine, but since they are there. you cant blame the game mechanics for it.

You are unable to find where people are on the map....well if you are in a player corp you can load up the map and its an option - "show corp members in space"..they show up green btw and if you hover your mouse over that star it ells you whos there.
If you are ganged...again theres this lovely option titled "show gang members in space" again they show up green.
If you cant be arsed with either of those, go for plain comunicaion - talking (TS skype, ventrillo, or in RL) or text... "I'm in Veisto..." "I'm in Yulai and heading towards Ibura"..."I'm jumps from Hakeri" (courtesy of the auto pilot).
Its really not that hard.
someone else mentioned the usefulness of the right click menu - yes, try it! it works, it really does. you can basicallly right click on anything and get the option your after.

ok. your worried your wifes frigate will get hurt...Rolling Eyes
1st: Big deal - wheres your sense of excitment? and its only a frigate!Twisted Evil
2nd: if you shoot the NPC's in your big though thing first most wont switch targets to another target.

You think this game caters too much to the solo player? omg! you have no idea, try 0.0 space. try a 5/10 complex and higher. Try one of the harder missions. try corp warfare.
do any of those alone and you are toast. Of course there are exceptions. but I'm telling you you wont last long alone in any of those situations....and I'm nearly a 3 year old character, skilled towards all aspects of combat. and I wont last long alone, although I do take risks, I am knowlegdable and "skilled" enough to last longer than most.


If you are still unconvinced theni say this: "good bye" and i hope that your perceptions of this game dont make you tell others not to try it...and this is really why I'm posting in the newbie section at all - incase they read a thread like yours and believe that you are right....having spent what? 14 days playing Rolling Eyes

Alexis DeTocqueville
Na Geanna Fiaine
Posted - 2006.03.27 20:35:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Alexis DeTocqueville on 27/03/2006 20:37:15
Most likely you would never have bothered to pay for it anyways. Can we move this thread to the Out of Pod Discussion where it belongs with all the other "Boo Hoo I don't like EVE and this is why..." threads?

Quote:

Most of the activities are cut for a solo player: mine, travel, missions are all solo-oriented. I ganged with my wife likes we do in all games to cooperate. We had nice 2 ships. Then we warped around for ages to find a single rat to kill (took us an hour in .7 system) as most places including deadzones were camped, and there was nothing to do.


Wow! high security space is densely populated?! YOU DON'T SAY! You answered your own question. Of course there's no rats in a 0.7 system.

Try and actually give the game a chance instead of this superficial crap and I might be sympathetic.

Juri Kral
Posted - 2006.03.27 20:36:00 - [17]
 

Before I reply to the content of the message, there are two points that need to be mentioned as preamble.

First, Ulthien: you're being very selective about the replies you are and are not taking into consideration. For that matter, the information and issues being discussed are also being done so in a very selective fashion. Given this focused approach, I've little reason to believe any ideas or answers provided will change your mind.

Second, EVE is a staggeringly complicated game, especially if you look under the hood. A quick perusal of the statistics listed for a single turret and its corresponding charger type will illustrate this. I don't know of any other game (mmo or otherwise) that requires at least a working understanding of radial velocity in order to be effective in combat. When you factor in transversal and relative velocities, signature radia, the sensor system, fall-off, projectile velocity, and different damage types (that actually have a function), you have what is easily the deepest series of "to hit" calculations I've yet seen implemented in a game. This system can be understood in its rudiments very quickly (a grand feat of information presentation), but it is to the players benefit to explore, experiment, and understand. Each of these statistics DOES serve a practical, "see the difference in combat" function, and that's only thinking about a straight "damage vs hp" combat model. A quick look at the Electronic Warfare section of the market will reveal that the tactical options in EvE go much, much deeper.

Originally by: Ulthien

The mechanics of ship equipping/optimizing and using it through the UI is backward.


While you made no specific examples of issues with the ship equipment interface, it's worth mentioning that there is a lot of information to take into consideration, and that information is never more than two clicks away.
The point about the tactical overlay has already been covered, so I'll move along.

Originally by: Ulthien

If someone is afk, you have to verbally/textually negotiate your travels (!?). Talk about backward technology.


OR they can warp the entire gang to the intended stargate. As others have mentioned, being able to see a location on player info would be an enormous PvP issue. As with this example, most objections I've found with the game already had solutions that I wasn't aware of.

Originally by: Ulthien

Most of the activities are cut for a solo player: mine, travel, missions are all solo-oriented.


Yes and no. While these activities are SOLOABLE, they are not necessarily solo. Mining, for example, CAN be done solo, but it's not advisable to do any serious mining without an escort. Starting missions may be done solo, but once your faction exceeds the "stealth tutorial" level and you gain access to more difficult missions, gangs become increasingly important (even more so as NPC's become more diverse in their combat abilities).

Originally by: Ulthien

Well i both researched and looked around for a week.... but i cant invite my wife in fregate to get locked/destroyed there "for fun".



It seems your research must have missed a few points. Many people consider frigates to be tactically superior to destroyers. This is another area where EvE is quite different from other games you may have played. Bigger != better.

Originally by: Ulthien

And i do write and play games for longer then most of you live :)



This entire discussion would have been better off without this sort of "credibility grab".

Tulthix
Posted - 2006.03.27 20:37:00 - [18]
 

I'll agree the gui (especially the font!) needs work. But I would not like the gui to become so automated it plays the game for you (ie decursive).

As for the rest of it, completely disagree. This game takes a longer attention span.

Eternal Fury
Rage of Inferno
Posted - 2006.03.27 20:48:00 - [19]
 

To the OP.

Eve is different then most games in that it doesn't lead you from mission to mission. You have to actively search them out.

First way. Every time you dock at a station, look on the right and see which agents are available to you. those that are available to you, add them to your address book. Then from then on they'll be listed under your agents.

this allone should net your 30 or so agents with hundreds of missions each, just from doing your tutorial missions.

After you've played a few weeks and want to focus on improveing your faction with one group, you can go through your Charactor sheet, go to standings, find the corp/group you want to improve faction with.

For example, Caldari Navy is a common one. Click on the info button for that..

In the new Caldari navy window, look under agents.

it'll list the different departments in the CN, and the agenst that are available to you.

You just find one that is say lvl 1 Quality 17 or 18 or so. Or as high as you can go. Add that contact to your address book, set them as the destination and go do their missions.

Basically rinse/repeat this till you are sick of missions, which should be around lvl 4. this will give you missions for as long as you want to play.

Most people seem to use missions for earning money, unless they are a miner/trader/rat hunter.

it's done me well for 2 months now, and paid for every ship I have. I'm currently saveing for when I can use a Battleship.


Some of the things in this game are backasswards. And if you are a technically inclined person, you probobly do what I do, and curse the dev team for doing some things the way they do.

For missles, I hanve't found a way to get their true MODIFIED stats while in space. But if you are in a station, and go to the fitting window, and right click/info on missles on the ship(not in the cargo hold, but already equiped) then you will see the MODIFIED stats.

This game has a LOT higher learning curve then most games.

If you are playing with your wife, you have part of the problem solved, in that you have someone to team with right off. this helps.

Stick it out, and keep trying.

Higher education isn't always fun, but it's a long term goal. Graduate, and things get better. eve is the same way. the first few months are a struggle as you learn things, figure things out, make mistakes, and learn from those.

but once you "Graduate" things improve gradually.


Solahn Merav
Posted - 2006.03.27 20:53:00 - [20]
 

I won't comment on the GUI issues as those have been discussed. I've been playing the game for just over a month now first as a trial then as a full subscriber.

Within a few weeks, both you and your wife should have the skills to rat in .5 or higher systems by yourself, which is the reason you find them boring working as a team. The first thing I would suggest is you try to find a level II agent who gives out kill missions and you both do them together in frigates. There are also many complexes out there which offer great challenges to groups of players and also have nice loot. There is a post in this forum for 2-D maps which has a pdf file with nice maps for all regions and shows you what systems have these complexes in them.

As for mining, have you tried one of you mining while the other hauls? Perhaps you could look at establishing a husband/wife manufacturing team. If you like fighting more, how about trying your hand at becoming the most feared pirate team in all of EVE. Join a corp, move to 0.0 space and defend a solar system in groups of like-minded players.

Beyond these suggestions, it may be possible that the game isn't to your liking which would be ok, I found EQ, EQ II, WOW and Anarchy Online all rather dull myself and can't believe I didn't try EVE sooner.

Tomoe Musashi
Gallente
Posted - 2006.03.27 20:55:00 - [21]
 

moderated

Wild Fox
Posted - 2006.03.27 21:00:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Eternal Fury

First way. Every time you dock at a station, look on the right and see which agents are available to you. those that are available to you, add them to your address book. Then from then on they'll be listed under your agents.



Dude :D

Let me give you a hint which will considerably improve your life. On the star map -- you know, the one you get when you hit F10 -- you can specify the display settings to shows you ALL agents available to you in the whole wide Eve universe! No need to travel from station to station searching them out...

And out of the game, of course, there are websites which will list all the agents and allow you to search for whatever you want.

Originally by: Eternal Fury

For missles, I hanve't found a way to get their true MODIFIED stats while in space. But if you are in a station, and go to the fitting window, and right click/info on missles on the ship(not in the cargo hold, but already equiped) then you will see the MODIFIED stats.



While in space, click on your ship to select it, right-click, choose Show Info, go to the Mods tab, look at your missiles. They will show up with the actual, modified by skills, etc. stats.

BootStrap
Veiled Justice
Posted - 2006.03.27 21:14:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Eternal Fury

For missles, I hanve't found a way to get their true MODIFIED stats while in space. But if you are in a station, and go to the fitting window, and right click/info on missles on the ship(not in the cargo hold, but already equiped) then you will see the MODIFIED stats.



Not as easy as guns but.. show info on your ship while in space, click on the 'modules' tab, scroll down to the fitted charges, click the blue 'i' next to your missiles. Its a bit hidden, and not as intuitive as for guns but its there.

Ogodei Ra
Posted - 2006.03.27 21:16:00 - [24]
 

Probably not much point in replying since the original poster probably wont read this .... but anyways ...

"Then we warped around for ages to find a single rat to kill"

Im playing now with my girlfriend. We do kill missions. We just started doing L3 kill missions. It takes about 10 seconds to get a mission. Most missions are in the same system as the mission agent. If not, its usually 1 jump away. A quick L3 mission has 5+ frigates and 3+ cruisers to kill. A hard L3 mission has multiple levels and 20+ frigs and 10+ cruisers per level.

Thats non-stop combat action without anyone else interfering with me and my GF. Our own private combat area. I can get mission after mission. Theres social skills that boost your standings with corps if you want to get to the good missions faster.

So if you wanted combat with your wife, theres no reason you couldnt get non-stop action with missions.

Also, if you were ratting in belts and couldnt find anything, you might have been in heavily populated noob zones. Of course they are overhunted. I have no trouble finding rats to kill away from the noob zones. The only problem I have is that the ones worth killing are in low sec. So I stick to missions for action.

O.

Wild Fox
Posted - 2006.03.27 21:17:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Juri Kral

While you made no specific examples of issues with the ship equipment interface, it's worth mentioning that there is a lot of information to take into consideration, and that information is never more than two clicks away.



Two clicks??

Let's take a favorite newbie question: how far do my missiles fly? And let's assume the newbie knows how to get to the information which is not exactly obvious.

1. Left-click -- select your ship.
2. Right-click -- get the menu
3. Click -- select Show Info
4. Click -- select the Mods tab
5. Click -- select the blue info square for the missile

Five clicks, are we done? Not by a long shot! See, in Eve you must work to get your info and YOU WILL LIKE IT!

6. Click -- to bring up the calculator
7-8-9... Tap-tap-tap enter the velocity, enter the flight time, calculate range.

But is it the right range? OF COURSE NOT! Silly rabbit, you didn't think it would be this simple, did you?

First, the flight time shown drops the decimal part. So if your actual flight time is, say, 6.5 seconds you'll only see 6. That will make a difference.

Second, missiles do not accelerate instantly which means the actual range of a missile will be a few kilometers less than the nominal range calculated by multiplying speed by flight time...

Bletch.




Lygos
Amarr
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2006.03.28 02:25:00 - [26]
 

I agree with most of your points except the optimal range/info thing. There's more important info in that box than just range, and most people tend to know their optimals after awhile anyhow.


ISD Santiago Cortes


Caldari
ISD Interstellar Correspondents
Posted - 2006.03.28 05:47:00 - [27]
 

Please resist the urge to flame posters even if you disagree strongly with their point of view.

There is quite simply no excuse for some of the language used in this thread.

Juri Kral
Posted - 2006.03.28 14:55:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Ulthien
The mechanics of ship equipping/optimizing and using it through the UI is backward.


Originally by: Juri Kral

While you made no specific examples of issues with the ship equipment interface, it's worth mentioning that there is a lot of information to take into consideration, and that information is never more than two clicks away.



Originally by: Wild Fox

Two clicks??



Context is everything.

Aomori Hasuka
Free Market Enterprizes
Posted - 2006.04.09 17:20:00 - [29]
 

Regarding OP topic about GUI, my friend, who can only play games like Mario Bros. for short periods of time, called this "the wordiest of word games" he had ever seen. I personally like complex games, and its not like the game is going to be setup perfectly for everyone.

Just my .02 ISK

Hoshi
Hedron Industries
Red Dwarf Racketeering Division
Posted - 2006.04.09 19:37:00 - [30]
 

One way to see where your friends are is to use the map. There is a Show Corp Members in Space and Show Gang Members in Space option. Not perfect sometimes useful.


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