open All Channels
seplocked Ships and Modules
blankseplocked Tech 2 ammo penalties stacking!
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Author Topic

Ethan Tomlinson
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2006.03.21 21:54:00 - [1]
 

Is this going to be fixed in kali or are penalties allways going to be multiplied by the number of guns. its ****ing lame and i believe it needs a fix at least by kali if not sooner.

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2006.03.21 21:56:00 - [2]
 

Yep. Plz fix as follows:

1. Remove T2 amo.
2. Rework T2 amo to do secondary effects, not damage.
3. Readd new T2 amo.
4. Add faction missiles.

Norvys Kerens
Gallente
Terror Knights
Posted - 2006.03.21 21:57:00 - [3]
 

I agree the penalties are too severe when applied to each individual gun, it should just be one effect to the ship regardless of how many guns are loaded with tech II ammo.

out of interest is the way t2 ammo works now a bug or was it designed to have multiple penalties?

ParMizaN
Body Count Inc.
The Requiem
Posted - 2006.03.21 22:01:00 - [4]
 

/agree with maya

failing that, at least balance them plz!

Agnar Koladrov
Gallente
Posted - 2006.03.21 22:01:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Maya Rkell
Yep. Plz fix as follows:

1. Remove T2 amo.
2. Rework T2 amo to do secondary effects, not damage.
3. Readd new T2 amo.
4. Add faction missiles.


Has there already been a discussion on what those secondary effects might be like?
What should the term "secondary effects" mean regarding a reworkj of the current tec2 ammo?

Mike Yagon
Minmatar
The Nest
Posted - 2006.03.21 22:06:00 - [6]
 

If I remember right someone asked the devs about this on the Las Vegas thing, their answer was that they T2 items were designed around these penalties stacking, so it's not a bug but rather working as intended.

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2006.03.21 22:33:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Agnar Koladrov
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Yep. Plz fix as follows:

1. Remove T2 amo.
2. Rework T2 amo to do secondary effects, not damage.
3. Readd new T2 amo.
4. Add faction missiles.


Has there already been a discussion on what those secondary effects might be like?
What should the term "secondary effects" mean regarding a reworkj of the current tec2 ammo?


Ideas which have been mooted include...

energy neutralisation, sig radius bloom, minor* versions of most current ECM effects, webbing...and a lot more. All minor, but significant in some situations.

(*talking less than a light drone per turret)

Note that different damage TYPES should still be possible, just with slightly reduced damage over the default. And give minmatar a very low damage AC amo which hits straight to structure. Plus T2 missiles with splash damage, or 100% more speed but 5% less damage.

Barrage type amo's with lower damage I also have no problem with, but sniper types I do in general. (+60% range is enough, thanks).


I posted a LOT of ideas back before they hit TQ.

Maxlis
Caldari
Max Enterprises
Posted - 2006.03.21 22:42:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Mike Yagon
If I remember right someone asked the devs about this on the Las Vegas thing, their answer was that they T2 items were designed around these penalties stacking, so it's not a bug but rather working as intended.


Yep, the devs said that T2 ammo was working exactly as intended. Sorry guys, but if you want the benifits, you gotta take the nerfing. Extra damage on that level isn't going to be free. And it doesn't make sense to put actual fitting reqs(CPU/Grid) so they hit cap and speed.

Shayla Sh'inlux
Eve Space Exploration Guild
Posted - 2006.03.21 23:13:00 - [9]
 

If they at least SAY it:

"Tech II ammo is working as intended. Our goal was to create several ridiculously overpowered ammo's such as the large sniper ammo which is ruining the whole idea of mixed fleets and makes tech 1 fitted battleships a joke for alliance scale fleet fighting. We also wanted to have a lot of utterly useless ammo's such as all the medium longrange gun ammo's as well as for example Hail ammo that gets 4 penalties for a little bit of extra damage. We also created 'omgwtfpwn precision missiles of undoing missile changes' to give the caldari some love after their missiles stopped BBQ'ing every ship out there, but to compensate we made rage/fury missiles that gimp your ship to the point of it being pointless to fly. Everything is fine and we are not looking at it anymore".


j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.03.22 00:19:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: j0sephine on 22/03/2006 00:20:05

"Ideas which have been mooted include..."

One thing i'd like to see about tech.2 ammo would be...

* the base damage being identical with matching tech.1 ammo, and the exact degree of 'secondary effect' attached to it scaling up with one's level in relevant specialization skill.

e.g. for say, 'tracer' ammo which affects the signature radius of ship it's being fired at, the exact effect goes 3% -> 6% -> 9% -> 12% -> 15% depending on specialization skill level. These 'debuffs' are treated like effects of regular modules, that is stack with one another and with regular EW ... meaning, loading more than 3-4 turrets with single tech.2 ammo type has no further benefits, so might as well try to mix them some.

(maxed out effect of such full 'stack' of ammo of given type should perhaps be similar to what a single matching ship module can do, to keep things reasonable o.O;

Ashelth
Caldari
The Raven Warriors
Posted - 2006.03.22 00:21:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
If they at least SAY it:

"Tech II ammo is working as intended. Our goal was to create several ridiculously overpowered ammo's such as the large sniper ammo which is ruining the whole idea of mixed fleets and makes tech 1 fitted battleships a joke for alliance scale fleet fighting. We also wanted to have a lot of utterly useless ammo's such as all the medium longrange gun ammo's as well as for example Hail ammo that gets 4 penalties for a little bit of extra damage. We also created 'omgwtfpwn precision missiles of undoing missile changes' to give the caldari some love after their missiles stopped BBQ'ing every ship out there, but to compensate we made rage/fury missiles that are completely useless unless you're shooting a POS that isn't moving without guns fitted because you'll die almost instantly with a full rack of those equipped. Everything is fine and we are not looking at it anymore".




Sorry had to fix that for ya ;)

From my experience... precision cruise missiles are the only think keeping the stealth bombers from being a joke. And work really well on inty pilots who wander into web range (if they have half a brain and stay out of web range you do 2 damage).

On the other hand, I can go fit a t1 gunboat bs and instapop frigs from 100km with much less effort, cost and thought on my part.

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.03.22 00:30:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: j0sephine on 22/03/2006 00:31:53

"From my experience... precision cruise missiles are the only think keeping the stealth bombers from being a joke."

uhmm stealth bombers already have the 'hidden' built-in bonus to explosion radius of cruise missiles, that brings the base of regular cruise missiles down to 50 m (37m with precision skill) ... short of maybe firing at interceptors charging at full speed what do you need precision cruises for..? o.O;

(and it doesn't really change bombers from being a joke either way, because they're utterly dumb as far as the very ship concept goes...)

Macky Oriley
Posted - 2006.03.22 00:38:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: j0sephine
Edited by: j0sephine on 22/03/2006 00:31:53

"From my experience... precision cruise missiles are the only think keeping the stealth bombers from being a joke."

uhmm stealth bombers already have the 'hidden' built-in bonus to explosion radius of cruise missiles, that brings the base of regular cruise missiles down to 50 m (37m with precision skill) ... short of maybe firing at interceptors charging at full speed what do you need precision cruises for..? o.O;

(and it doesn't really change bombers from being a joke either way, because they're utterly dumb as far as the very ship concept goes...)


An inty travelling over a set speed (this speed is easily attainable with mwd switched on) gets very little damage from cruise missiles fired by a manti, either normal or precision...

The precision missile makes the manti slightly better against intys as those intys that fly in the buffer zone between stopped and max speed will take larger damage, but overall even the greater explosion velocity of the precision missile is not enough to hurt an inty...

I know this for a fact as I flew mantis extensivly in pvp, and throughout the only ship I trully feared was the inty. Everything else I would happily fight against, but even at great range I would think twice about uncloaking my manti to fire at an inty.

Why did I just post this? Not really sure - just wanted to clarify some points...

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.03.22 00:56:00 - [14]
 

"An inty travelling over a set speed (this speed is easily attainable with mwd switched on) gets very little damage from cruise missiles fired by a manti, either normal or precision..."

That's why i asked what difference does picking the precision cruises make ^^; because when firing at something other than interceptor they aren't really different from regular cruises, and when firing at interceptors the difference isn't exactly that much ... so just puzzled how they make the bomber 'not a joke' ^^;;

Ishen Villone
Gallente
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.03.22 00:58:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Macky Oriley
Originally by: j0sephine
Edited by: j0sephine on 22/03/2006 00:31:53

"From my experience... precision cruise missiles are the only think keeping the stealth bombers from being a joke."

uhmm stealth bombers already have the 'hidden' built-in bonus to explosion radius of cruise missiles, that brings the base of regular cruise missiles down to 50 m (37m with precision skill) ... short of maybe firing at interceptors charging at full speed what do you need precision cruises for..? o.O;

(and it doesn't really change bombers from being a joke either way, because they're utterly dumb as far as the very ship concept goes...)


An inty travelling over a set speed (this speed is easily attainable with mwd switched on) gets very little damage from cruise missiles fired by a manti, either normal or precision...

The precision missile makes the manti slightly better against intys as those intys that fly in the buffer zone between stopped and max speed will take larger damage, but overall even the greater explosion velocity of the precision missile is not enough to hurt an inty...

I know this for a fact as I flew mantis extensivly in pvp, and throughout the only ship I trully feared was the inty. Everything else I would happily fight against, but even at great range I would think twice about uncloaking my manti to fire at an inty.

Why did I just post this? Not really sure - just wanted to clarify some points...


Makes sense to me that an interceptor counters a bomber ;)

Grape Juice
GoonWaffe
SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
Posted - 2006.04.09 13:22:00 - [16]
 

Sorry to bring back an oldish topic just to whine, but what's the point of having T2 ammo if you're going to make it pointless to use?

Why bother training the skills up to use it if a freighter could beat you to a gate?

Why spend the ISK to buy the ammo?

I could almost understand it if the penalties were only applied while you were firing, but ALWAYS?

It's like making T2 ships do little to no damage in return for extra defenses, or like making the doomsday weapons the only weapon available to the Titan, and you have to wait 20 minutes between shots. (I have no idea how they actually work, I'm taking a stab in the dark.)


The extra time spent training the skills necessary to use T2 ammo and the extra ISK spent on it should be rewarded with an added bonus without trying to 'balance' with T1 ammo. T2 ammo should be better than it's T1 counterpart because it costs more time and money wise.



Looking at the above quotes, however, it seems like they're not going to do anything about it. They WANT to gimp the T2 ammo. It makes absolutely no sense to me.

Again, sorry about the whining. I try to refrain from it, but this is beyond messed up.

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.04.09 15:24:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: grape Juice

Looking at the above quotes, however, it seems like they're not going to do anything about it. They WANT to gimp the T2 ammo. It makes absolutely no sense to me.

Again, sorry about the whining. I try to refrain from it, but this is beyond messed up.


Personally i dont see the point of having severe penalties for using tech 2 ammo either. What are they going to do when tech 3 ammo is introduced - make the ship take more damage from incoming fire perhaps?

Grape Juice
GoonWaffe
SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
Posted - 2006.04.09 15:47:00 - [18]
 

It's like paying full price for a Farrari and getting one with a 4 cylinder engine.

Malthros Zenobia
Posted - 2006.04.09 15:57:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Maya Rkell
Yep. Plz fix as follows:

1. Remove T2 amo.
2. Rework T2 amo to do secondary effects, not damage.
3. Readd new T2 amo.
4. Add faction missiles.


QFT

Destruct
Octavian Vanguard
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2006.04.09 23:46:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: grape Juice
It's like paying full price for a Farrari and getting one with a 4 cylinder engine.


no, you get pedals.
this is a bug no matter what they say.

Litus Arowar
Posted - 2006.04.10 00:35:00 - [21]
 

I'm amarr and am lucky that most amarr ammo doesn't face these issues

but they're gonna run into more and more problems as a result of the sniper ammos and ones with huge penalties

what they should do is rethink the whole tech2 ammo setup... as was said by Maya, ammo should have a racial benefit designed with balance in mind... everything else about the ammo should be the same, maybe add a minor penalty across the board (perhaps one you can reduce with higher levels of the spec skill?)

as mayas examples went, these could involve targetpainting ammo, webbing ammo (perhaps a 2% web that stacks for 3-4 seconds, could be useful with rapid-firing guns, but anyway), nos/neut ammo, shield/armor-piercing rounds... whatever, but they should merely add another element to the game rather than be things you MUST or must not use due to its insane bonuses (sniper ammo) or insane drawbacks (certain missiles, etc)

I do wanna point out that "And give minmatar a very low damage AC amo which hits straight to structure." is a bad idea simply because it'd be an IWin button against all tanks (cause no one will ever fit a hull repper on their combat ship, not willingly anyway)

just my thoughts

Dampfschlaghammer
Minmatar
Dusk and Dawn
Posted - 2006.04.10 01:01:00 - [22]
 

Quote:
2. Rework T2 amo to do secondary effects, not damage.


Best idea I've read on the forums in a really long time.

I think you shouldnt restrict that to some variation of existing effects like nosferatu or dampening though.

Nice effects would include things like a stun gun, rusting of armour/structure over time, causing damage relative to the charge level of the capacitor etc....

Maybe even some day make the complexity of their use similar to Guild wars spells and abilities?

Dont know if T2 Ammo should be the vessel of these changes alone.



 

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only