open All Channels
seplocked Features and Ideas Discussion
blankseplocked Inlining War Declaration Costs
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Author Topic

Mihail d'Amour
Posted - 2006.03.16 15:24:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Mihail d''Amour on 19/03/2006 12:16:04
Premises:

1. Being able to declare war on another corporation without their consent was intended as a game play dynamic - based on the availability of non-consenual war declarations.

2. Declaring war on a corporation against their consent was intended to be costly enough to warrant discretion - based on the pre-eveflation cost of 1M isk.

3. Piracy in high-sec is not intended without harsh penalties - based on the Concord response to acts of piracy in systems with a security status of .5 or higher.

4. 1M isk is a trivial amount for any character/corporation within the game for a reasonable duration - based on personal experience.

Issue:

Considering the above and evaluating the game mechanics, it is possible for the current war-declaration system to be abused in order to bypass the Concord response to acts of piracy against a corporation in high-sec space at very limited cost to the pirate corp by simply war-dec'ing a junior corporation.

Goal:

To mitigate the problem at hand and only the problem at hand. Namely, to re-allign the intended opportunity cost (currently 1M isk) with the reality of the current Eve economy (in which this amount is now trivial). A simple raising of this bar, however, would make war declarations for younger corporations cost prohibitive and would remove from them an option that was intended to be available. Failing to raise this bar for senior corporations creates a bully-system where pirates can deprive younger corps of ever getting off the ground. Therefore, I've set my goal at making a modification that does not hurt younger corps trying to make war, does not remove or significantly alter non-consensual war declarations from their intended design, nor leave the current ability to pirate in high-sec without repercussion so long as a young corp exists.

Solution:

Non-consensual wars will have their costs changed to a floating value based on the participants. This value will be tied to the skillpoints of both corporations.
RP - Declaring war on a seriously inferior corporation is much more politically expensive. Concord officials have considerably more difficulty spinning the war's legitimacy and those who will take the risk of doing so will only do so at a greater lining of their own pockets.
The formula would be around 1M * (1+2*(total skillpoints of declaring corp/total skillpoints of target corp)^3 + ((total skillpoints of declaring corp/member count)/(total skillpoints of target corp/member count))^3.
With this formula, a corp with twice as many skillpoints pays around 25M isk/week vs two balanced corps costing ~4M per week. The skillpoint per member factor helps balance out corps made entirely of one small but highly-trained wolfpack.

To prevent abuse of this sytem, a hiring-freeze would have to be enacted for the declaring corporation (I had originally set this for both, but currently a corp that is war dec'd can join an alliance and it is hard to abuse something that requires the other person to initiate the action in the first place, in short, it's a risk the declaring corp should be willing to take).

Relief:

Certain wars are so unbalanced they create a humanitarian disaster. 10 percent of all non-consensual war charges over 50M/week go to the target corp as relief payments.

K Shara
Caldari
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.03.16 16:37:00 - [2]
 

so....

the fact that my corp has at least a dozen people with 30+ mil sp means that it will cost us a bil to war dec ?

also dont have your indy alts in corp that will make the war dec cost more.

your idea is stupid and based on a wrong assumption.

The cost is supposed to be a token. the same way an allaince dec is a token to an alliance.

Why should it cost more to dec. If you want rotection get PvP people in your corp , get protection from mercs, join an established corp. This game isnt about fair or even playing grounds.

Eve is a dog eat dog world. tell me what corp you are in and ill show you.

Mihail d'Amour
Posted - 2006.03.16 16:46:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: K Shara
so....

the fact that my corp has at least a dozen people with 30+ mil sp means that it will cost us a bil to war dec ?



No, it means it will cost you a bil to war dec as a means to pirate in high-sec. You can have consensual wars. You can have inexpensive wars against companies that are truly competitors of yours that are non-consensual. If, on the other hand, you want to bully someone just because you can, you either do it in low-sec, take the security hit (there's a reason we have those), or pay the bill.

Quote:


also dont have your indy alts in corp that will make the war dec cost more.

your idea is stupid and based on a wrong assumption.

The cost is supposed to be a token. the same way an allaince dec is a token to an alliance.



Given the cost of lower-end tech 1 items that have been available since the war cost was decided upon, the amount does not look 'token' in comparrison. And I still remember when 1M isk was not a token amount to me by any stretch of the imagination.

Quote:


Why should it cost more to dec. If you want rotection get PvP people in your corp , get protection from mercs, join an established corp. This game isnt about fair or even playing grounds.



Why should you get to tell someone else how they have to play the game in high-sec just because you are wealthy and bored? Why should you get to ignore the policing system, security rating system, etc, just because another corp is newer, poorer, and smaller?

Quote:


Eve is a dog eat dog world. tell me what corp you are in and ill show you.


Insults, threats.. nothing of any value in the form of a legitimate argument, though...

Dutarro
Matari Munitions
The Fendahlian Collective
Posted - 2006.03.19 15:37:00 - [4]
 

Mihail, I agree with the purpose of your proposal, but IMO it would not have the intended effect. Using skill points to detect grief wars may work at first, but in time players would learn to bypass or exploit the new rules.

Adira Saxx
Gallente
Posted - 2006.03.19 17:18:00 - [5]
 

I agree with the general idea as well. I'm sick to death of small pirate outfits in HACs that declare war on corps with 90% of the playerbase in frigates. The one million credits is a joke. A player that knows what he's doing will make that within 12 hours of creating his character.

Unfortunately, suggesting war costs based on the corps' sizes, total SP, the sec rating in which the war will take place in, or any other factor, is usually rather badly received by the eve forum-community. Usually such suggestions are flamed straight to kingdom come, followed by a few sudden ingame war declarations from people who can't separate a well intended forum suggestion from the game itself.

I absolutely think something should be done about the players that insist on ganking defenceless corps on a daily basis, while enjoying the safety of CONCORD's protection from pirates. I don't consider this a part of EVE. I consider it plain griefing.

Unfortunately, it would seem that CCP doesn't agree with this opinion, or something would have been done a long time ago. After all, suggestions like this appear at least 2-3 times a week and they are still being ignored.

Adira

Bolderine
Caldari
Posted - 2006.03.19 18:14:00 - [6]
 

I know of one 10 player corp that had PVPers as well as miners. All 5 of the PVPers got ganked in the first five minutes of the war. So musch for that idea! A small corp is small because they have not been able to recruit enough members. Until they are established, they don't have the numbers to fight back against seasoned players.

Join another older corp? But I don't want to play the game the way they want me to. I have my own goals and ideals, I don't see how I can be what I want to be by being told what to do by someone else. I came to this game to enjoy playing it, not to be someone else's lacky just because they have been playing longer than me.

I am probably one of the few who stay in empire and actually want to PVP at a later date but not until I have the skills to survive more than a few microseconds. I thought this was the whole idea of the safety aspect in Empire.

I saw in another forum thread, someone mentioned that no matter what you do to try to prevent it, someone will find a way around it. I think that has already happened with greifing small corps in highsec by using the war dec to get around it?

Griefing is exactly what it is. Not fair competition or "just a fact of life in Eve". The devs created the system in Empire to allow players to gain experience and become skilled enough to hold their own in lower sec regions and corps to become established before venturing into lowsec and below, not so some elite corp of highly skilled players can have a bit of easy target practice.

The way it comes across to a noob is:
Quote:
Lets chase these noobs out of 'our game' and teach them that they are not welcome here.

Noob logs off and goes to play some other game that allows them to actually get somewhere before being killed. At least in games like WoW, you have a fighting chance by the time you are forced to leave the safe areas and the safe areas are just that - SAFE, so that characters can build themselves up enough to have that fighting chance.


Mihail d'Amour
Posted - 2006.03.21 14:31:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Dutarro
Mihail, I agree with the purpose of your proposal, but IMO it would not have the intended effect. Using skill points to detect grief wars may work at first, but in time players would learn to bypass or exploit the new rules.


Well, the whole point of an ideas forum is for us to think like mice and make a better mouse trap. With the hiring freeze for the declaring corp, I think I've killed the biggest exploit threat, but could be missing something. Put your thinking cap on, how would you exploit this if you wanted to be a high-sec pirate using war declarations to get around Concord?

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2006.04.03 19:55:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Maya Rkell on 03/04/2006 19:55:33

Skillpoints is a meaningless measure - if a corp has, for example, 10 industrialists with 30 mil SP between then, and a corp wardeccing them has 20 PvPers with 5 mil SP between them, the PvPers will have a substancial advantage. Which your system dosn't model.

There are people who WILL come to the defence of truly unfairly targeted corps. When one investigates, 90% of these wars are started by the "young" corp via smacktalk, attempted piracy or corp theft.

PLAYER justice is the answer. Asking for a pony isn't.

Edmar
Ship Depot
Posted - 2006.04.03 20:17:00 - [9]
 

I agree 100% that 1 mil is too little to pay to start a non-consentual war as the rules are now. It needs to be way more than than that. It should always be a significant cost to the corp. How that is calculated is the hard part...

K Shara
Caldari
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.04.04 00:01:00 - [10]
 

but why should it be significant ?

Also if you want your own corp with your own goals etc prepare to be a target for the big guys out there.

Eve isnt a fluffy cuddly game, its cruel and nasty and brutal. which I why i love it.

If you are war dec'd and cannot fight you have a few choices....

Surrender and pay wht ever ransom the corp demands.

Leave the corp.

High mercs to fight for you.

get powerful friends who will dec the corp.


Edmar
Ship Depot
Posted - 2006.04.04 01:01:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: K Shara
but why should it be significant ?

Because a license to kill a tiny newly forming corp with low abilities and small numbers with nowhere to run should at least cost something or other. They stuck a 1 mil price tag on there for a reason, probably back then it was considered significant. If not why even bother with 1 mil?

Koroke
Posted - 2006.04.04 03:51:00 - [12]
 

Why not just make wardec's invalid or non-functioning in highsec(>0.7)?

K Shara
Caldari
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.04.04 07:01:00 - [13]
 

you fail to see the point. No place in eve is safe.

its that simple

Mihail d'Amour
Posted - 2006.04.04 14:32:00 - [14]
 

OK, hopefully in order -

Maya - Skillpoints to some degree are a measure of time in the game. An all industrial corp will be at a disadvantage, no system is perfect, but it can be argued that those corps are senior, made choices around training, and probably have friends by now. Yes, it does mean that having an industrial alt corp puts that corp at risk of very inexpensive war decs, the same as the system is now. It isn't asking for a pony, it is inlining the costs just like the title says. Get a grip.

Koroke - War declarations and particularly non-consensual ones do add a quality to Eve and shouldn't go away. They prevent corps from doing nasty things in low-sec and then hiding out in high-sec all the time.

K Shara.. then why not just remove concord? Why is Concord there if not to keep general law and order? You managed to craft a reply completely ignoring the points made in the initial post, which I intentionally made BEFORE the solution text. Right now this is a system which is exploited for piracy in high sec. Piracy wasn't intended for high-sec. This is demonstrated by Concord responding. In other words, it is using a game mechanic to subvert another game mechanic. Inlining the war declaration costs won't completely alleviate this issue, but it will make it much less attractive. Being a big PvP corp shouldn't give you a carte-blanche to grief other corps in order to extort them. At least not without paying for it.

From a roleplaying perspective, allowing giant piracy-oriented corps to declare war on small industrial startups would require far more political maneuvering and would naturally incur greater costs than would be incurred to sanction hostilities between two behemoths or two small startups.


Dutarro
Matari Munitions
The Fendahlian Collective
Posted - 2006.04.04 16:01:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: K Shara
but why should it be significant ?

Also if you want your own corp with your own goals etc prepare to be a target for the big guys out there.

Eve isnt a fluffy cuddly game, its cruel and nasty and brutal. which I why i love it.

If you are war dec'd and cannot fight you have a few choices....

Surrender and pay wht ever ransom the corp demands.

Leave the corp.

High mercs to fight for you.

get powerful friends who will dec the corp.




And the easiest response of all ... hole up and wait until your enemies get bored and retract the war dec. Griefer/ganker types usually have short attention spans, it won't take long.


K Shara
Caldari
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.04.04 16:07:00 - [16]
 

Concord is there to stop random deaths by ganking.

War decs give you 24 hours notice

Attack a non war target who hasnt nicked your can in high sec and die by concord. if you avoid it you are exploiting

wars arnt griefing, simple as that. You dont want pvp, dont undock. or join a nub corp.

Dutarro
Matari Munitions
The Fendahlian Collective
Posted - 2006.04.04 16:19:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: K Shara
...wars arnt griefing, simple as that...


Wars don't equate to griefing, no, but they can be used as a tool of griefing. By 'griefing' I mean the desire to cause other players misery, either to extort money or just because one likes making people miserable. Some wars are declared to cause grief, others are declared for worthier reasons (territorial dispute, business rivalry, etc.)

Mihail d'Amour
Posted - 2006.04.04 18:27:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: K Shara
Concord is there to stop random deaths by ganking.

War decs give you 24 hours notice

Attack a non war target who hasnt nicked your can in high sec and die by concord. if you avoid it you are exploiting

wars arnt griefing, simple as that. You dont want pvp, dont undock. or join a nub corp.


And my suggestion doesn't take away the ability to war dec anyone you want, so what is your issue with it? It only makes it reasonably priced for most corps and painfully expensive for people exploiting the war system to pirate in high-sec. Concord is there to stop piracy in high-sec.

Capt Raistlin
Posted - 2006.04.04 23:10:00 - [19]
 

Myself, I'd Rather see a lockdown on Joining/Leaving a Corp during war. And or, the possibly to declair single wars One Player on One Player. Without mentioning names, I have been wronged anuff to declair a war all of twice. both times the Corp. Had all players leave the corp, and hide in Noob Corps Untill the war ended, then the never leaving the station alt, lets everyone back in, or they just stay in Noob Corp's which can not be wardec'ed

Hire/Quiting Freeze would stop such from happoning, and stop reinforcement except in a pre-planned ahead war.

You cant really allow corps to wardec noobcorps or nobody new would be playing this game for long. but a single char wardec, might be the ticket, same as a normal war but only for the single player


Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2006.04.04 23:20:00 - [20]
 

Mihail d'Amour, you have a grip on something certainly, but you fail to justify why code time should be wasted on a change that you admit is badly - and afaik fatally - flawed.

Capt Raistlin, great, so I can lock down a corp's membership with an alt corp wardec. WOO!

Dutarro
Matari Munitions
The Fendahlian Collective
Posted - 2006.04.05 04:13:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Capt Raistlin
...You cant really allow corps to wardec noobcorps or nobody new would be playing this game for long. but a single char wardec, might be the ticket, same as a normal war but only for the single player..


An alternative to that -- when a character is expelled from or quits a player corp, they become the sole member of a new 'dummy corp'. The dummy corp cannot join alliances, has max membership of one and an uninspiring name like 'Amarr Corporation 732984', but can be wardec'ed as usual. The result is that nobody can hide in NPC corps except noobs.


K Shara
Caldari
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.04.05 08:47:00 - [22]
 

the premis that war decs shoudl be expensive is wrong.

Also I disagree with blocking members from leaving a corp during war, that is griefing.

If you want to leave the corp during warthere is 2 reasons.

1, you dont want to help teh corp in which case they wont let you back when teh war is over.

2, you are leaving top avoid the war dec but still working for the corp. Unfortunately this is allowed and nothing can be done aboutit.

Eve is all about non consentual pvp, not about fluffy cuddly carbearism.


TheDevek
Posted - 2006.04.05 14:18:00 - [23]
 

Shooting fish in a barrel is not PvP.


Mihail d'Amour
Posted - 2006.04.05 14:32:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Maya Rkell
Mihail d'Amour, you have a grip on something certainly, but you fail to justify why code time should be wasted on a change that you admit is badly - and afaik fatally - flawed.

Capt Raistlin, great, so I can lock down a corp's membership with an alt corp wardec. WOO!


I never said badly or fatally. I said it doesn't cover every instance where war-declarations result in unbalanced wars. And, quite frankly, that wasn't really my goal. The goal was twofold. 1. to try to reduce exploiting the current system. 2. try to make the costs represent the corps player make-up. Again, senior players have been around, know the deal, and have a few tricks they can use or friends they can involve. A large industrial corp with senior players is going to have resources to deal with pirates trying to exploit the war-dec'ing. And, they have to deal with it now. The upstarts, which don't yet have the contacts, are still vulnerable as well, it just costs the declaring corp enough that it isn't worth it for the ability to pirate a corp in high-sec anymore. Think of Chris Rock's idea of making bullets cost 1000 dollars. You'd only shoot someone you were really angry with. But the inlining formula allows the RP wars between larger factions to continue without becoming prohibitively expensive. And this doesn't affect alliances at all. The only people negatively affected are corps who exploit war-dec'ing.


 

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only