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blankseplocked Arazu - Bonus change needed?
 
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Kaiu
Black Nova Corp
KenZoku
Posted - 2006.03.10 00:58:00 - [1]
 

Does the Force (NOT combat) Recon ship for the Gallente, the Arazu needs either a second EW bonus, as i believe was intended. Same as the Falcon. Else it needs some Drone bonus.

The Amarr ships have drone bonuses? Confused

Any thoughts on this?

Hoshi
Hedron Industries
Red Dwarf Racketeering Division
Posted - 2006.03.10 01:46:00 - [2]
 

It has 2 EW related bonuses
5% bonus to Remote Sensor Dampener effectiveness per level
10% bonus to warp disruptor range

Aramova
Reikoku
KenZoku
Posted - 2006.03.10 01:46:00 - [3]
 

I agree 100%, I own an Arazu and it's bonuses are lacking for a ship of it's cost and the skills needed to run it. Not to mention it's biggest bonus is BROKEN. Evil or Very MadConfused

Aramova
Reikoku
KenZoku
Posted - 2006.03.10 01:47:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Hoshi
It has 2 EW related bonuses
5% bonus to Remote Sensor Dampener effectiveness per level
10% bonus to warp disruptor range


The Sensor dampener effectiveness is the base cruiser bonus that belongs to the cruiser the Arazu is based off of.

A nice addition would be a bonus to optimal range of the RSDs.

Meridius
Destructive Influence
IT Alliance
Posted - 2006.03.10 01:52:00 - [5]
 

The 10% warp disruptor optimal range bonus needs to be upped to 20% imo.

10% is meh. It just turns normal ruptors into a domination disruptors. The minnie recons get a web bonus that pushes there optimal to officer web ranges.

Kaiu
Black Nova Corp
KenZoku
Posted - 2006.03.10 01:59:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Hoshi
It has 2 EW related bonuses
5% bonus to Remote Sensor Dampener effectiveness per level
10% bonus to warp disruptor range


Sensor Damps arent 'great' anyway...and yes to copy the bonuses from the T1 cruiser? Kind of lame imo...

10% bonus to scram needs to be upped.

The Medium Hybrid DMG bonus needs to be replaced by either Drone DMG bonus and/or Drone Capacity

Vishnej
Demonic Retribution
Pure.
Posted - 2006.03.10 02:24:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Meridius
The 10% warp disruptor optimal range bonus needs to be upped to 20% imo.

10% is meh. It just turns normal ruptors into a domination disruptors. The minnie recons get a web bonus that pushes there optimal to officer web ranges.


I'd agree it should be 15 or 20%/level.

Aramova
Reikoku
KenZoku
Posted - 2006.03.10 04:13:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Vishnej
Originally by: Meridius
The 10% warp disruptor optimal range bonus needs to be upped to 20% imo.

10% is meh. It just turns normal ruptors into a domination disruptors. The minnie recons get a web bonus that pushes there optimal to officer web ranges.


I'd agree it should be 15 or 20%/level.


\o/ Agreed! Laughing

Cyberstrike2027
Gallente
Focused Annihilation
Detrimental Imperative
Posted - 2006.03.10 04:30:00 - [9]
 

wot he said ^^

Hoshi
Hedron Industries
Red Dwarf Racketeering Division
Posted - 2006.03.10 10:52:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Aramova
Originally by: Hoshi
It has 2 EW related bonuses
5% bonus to Remote Sensor Dampener effectiveness per level
10% bonus to warp disruptor range


The Sensor dampener effectiveness is the base cruiser bonus that belongs to the cruiser the Arazu is based off of.

A nice addition would be a bonus to optimal range of the RSDs.


So is 2 of the EW bonuses the falcon get, only force recon related ew bonus it gets are 5% strenght per level while the arazu here get 10% scrambler range.

I am not saying that arazu couldn't need another bonus but to say it somehow missing a bonus compared to a falcon is wrong. It just have different bonuses.

JC Weyland
Caldari
Endgame.
Posted - 2006.03.10 12:25:00 - [11]
 

Either change it to a bigger value on the percentage to warp disruptor, or change it all together to affect warp scramblers, and make its bonus ~60% per level. I hate the fact that it feels like you need to use faction disruptors on this ship to make it worthwhile.

A base 10km webber on Huginn/Rapier can get you to 40km, an increase of 4x. A base 11km nos on a curse can get yo to 33km, an increase of 3x. A base 20km disruptor on Arazu/Lachesis can get you to 30km, an increase of 0.5x. It doesnt seem right. But a 80km, or 60km disruptor doesnt seem right either ofc.

madaluap
Gallente
Anthrax Foundation
Posted - 2006.03.10 13:10:00 - [12]
 

make it 20%, that will do for sure. if i use a 20 k i get to 28 k thats just crap for spending 120 mil on this ship. i could just aswell buy a scorp and fit that with a dark blood scram.

20% would do well, that would be 20* 1.8 = 36 km

with a relative cheap scram (24-26k) you would get:

26*1.8 = 46.8 km, this ship neeeeeds range you cant tank it it needs that extra range.

Velsharoon
Gallente
Arcane Velshologies
Posted - 2006.03.10 13:14:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: madaluap
make it 20%, that will do for sure. if i use a 20 k i get to 28 k thats just crap for spending 120 mil on this ship. i could just aswell buy a scorp and fit that with a dark blood scram.

20% would do well, that would be 20* 1.8 = 36 km

with a relative cheap scram (24-26k) you would get:

26*1.8 = 46.8 km, this ship neeeeeds range you cant tank it it needs that extra range.


thing is you can fit 4 disruptors and thats like 4 dark blood scrambs...or 200m worth

Grimwalius d'Antan
Gallente
Posted - 2006.03.10 13:53:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: madaluap
[...]this ship neeeeeds range you cant tank it it needs that extra range.

The what now? Since when did these kinds of ships become solo PVPers? Since when did ship balancing ever become about 1on1 proficiency?

Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.03.10 14:20:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Rod Blaine on 10/03/2006 14:21:15

Originally by: Grimwalius d'Antan
Originally by: madaluap
[...]this ship neeeeeds range you cant tank it it needs that extra range.

The what now? Since when did these kinds of ships become solo PVPers? Since when did ship balancing ever become about 1on1 proficiency?


It's not, but the 10% bonus is a tad low imo indeed.
Make it 15% and we can call it a deal Wink

A damp range bonus sin't really needed, they have the range needed to cover teh disruptor range. The main guns (200mm or 250mm rails) have about the same max usable range (with decent ammo fitted) on the arazu as damps and disruptors have. So all in all the ranges (assuming change of bonus to 15% or 20%), combine perfectly. A range bonus on damos wouldn't do much since you wouldn't be able to use the scramblers at that range anyway.

Hebus Zanheros
Gallente
ICE is Coming to EVE
Tau Ceti Federation
Posted - 2006.03.10 14:37:00 - [16]
 

I think that my Arazus is fine with this bonus.

I have a falcon to, and I take one or other in function of the need.


Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2006.03.10 14:38:00 - [17]
 

Well, let's use the other recons as a model, specifically the combat recons (now looking at only EW bonuses). At level 5

Rook. Range is ~150km, strength is boosted by 50%, and cap is reduced to half. Comparable bonuses with dampeners.
Curse. Range is boosted to 30km+ (by +200%), and strength is boosted by 100%. Comparable bonuses with disruptors BUT THIS IS HIGH SLOT.
Huginn. Range is boosted to 40km (by +300%). Comparable with disruptor.

Now, all things equal, the disruptor bonus should be well comparable with the Huginn's bonus, while the bonuses to dampeners should be comparable with the Rook. Does this sound like too much? Not really. Remember that disruptors and dampaners occupy the same slot position, and remember, too, that both the Curse and Huginn recieve bonuses to short range modules expanding to ~40km, for the Gallentean ones we are talking about a medium range ewar module expanding to a much shorter range.

That said, let me just say that the missile damage bonus that the Huginn and Lachesis get is just damnable. We're fed the impression that they are EWar ships but they get a damage bonus? (Interceptor-bonuses versus role ring a bell?) The same missile damage bonus for the Rook is a bit of a "meh" as it's something that the other's have from the basic ship while the Rook doesn't.

As to the specific case of the Arazu - why on earth does a cloaked ship, that has no problem in the world getting close, have a range bonus?

As it stands, the Minmatar Recons are slightly sub-par, while the Gallentean Recons are completely inferior. The Caldari and the Amarrian ones fill their roles very well (nasty general purpose and small-scale combat master respectively), while the Minmatar ones are clearly a battleship support getting both a targets speed and signature to levels where torpedoes do lots of damage.
Anyone know a good role for the Gallentean one? It's got too low scrambling strength to gate camp and it's got way too short scrambling range to function as a long range tackler, while the strict electronic warfare capability is in no way better than the (extremely cheaper) Celestis.

20% scrambling range bonus makes it slightly useful, but it's not until strength 2 scramblers start reaching the 30km area any such bonus would start to shine and let the ship have a clearly defined role (long range tackler). This would require a 60% range bonus, which would put the strength 1 disruptors in the range of 80km.
Is this too radical you think?

(Should be noted that I'm one of those who do not consider scramblers doing any danger, since they don't affect your ships combat operation in anyway. After all, all they do is drain cap from the attacker and prevent the recipent from getting out of danger. And we're talking range here, not strength, so I've seen not a single argument in the WCS debates by the pro-WCS people which could be used to say this would overpower scramblers - they simply, conveniently, forget about the scrambler's range limitation)

Eyeshadow
Caldari
The xDEATHx Squadron
Posted - 2006.03.10 15:09:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Eyeshadow on 10/03/2006 15:49:27
Change the bonus to effect warp scramblers rather than disruptors and up it so that a standard scrambler will get 30km. With faction scrams you could hit 40km for -2 scrambling. That IMO, is a good bonus

Id still rather see it scrapped for a an RSD optimal range bonus, in the order of 20% per Recon Level. This would bring it more in line with the others imo (RSDs have pretty crap optimal as it is)

Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.03.10 15:10:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Rod Blaine on 10/03/2006 15:11:16
Quote:

20% scrambling range bonus makes it slightly useful, but it's not until strength 2 scramblers start reaching the 30km area any such bonus would start to shine and let the ship have a clearly defined role (long range tackler). This would require a 60% range bonus, which would put the strength 1 disruptors in the range of 80km.
Is this too radical you think?



Good point, and it offers an idea.

How about a bonus only applicable to str 2 scramblers ?
One that extends their range to about 30km max.

With no bonus on disruptors at all. I do think that 80km on a tech1 disruptor would be a tad OTT tbh Wink. Yet strength 2's at 30km would not be overpowering, it would make the arazu be able to scramble for a total of 4 on a normal setup that includes damps as well.

After all, then a comination of an arazu and a rapier would be a default long range winner tackling team against any single ship or small ship group even. At 70km the taget could never lock any of the two, yet could be comfortably scrambled and webbed to prevent escape or approach. At 70km fof's wont do it much good either.

So yeah, that would be overpowering the Arazu somewhat...

madaluap
Gallente
Anthrax Foundation
Posted - 2006.03.10 15:52:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Grimwalius d'Antan
Originally by: madaluap
[...]this ship neeeeeds range you cant tank it it needs that extra range.

The what now? Since when did these kinds of ships become solo PVPers? Since when did ship balancing ever become about 1on1 proficiency?


wtf? who is talking about 1 vs 1, im talking about getting ****d if i start dampening bs from below 35 k..

Kaiu
Black Nova Corp
KenZoku
Posted - 2006.03.10 16:04:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: madaluap
Originally by: Grimwalius d'Antan
Originally by: madaluap
[...]this ship neeeeeds range you cant tank it it needs that extra range.

The what now? Since when did these kinds of ships become solo PVPers? Since when did ship balancing ever become about 1on1 proficiency?


wtf? who is talking about 1 vs 1, im talking about getting ****d if i start dampening bs from below 35 k..


Precisely.

The Arazu cannot do the job it is designed to do. Not in anyway close to it infact.

Even if you tank it and purely scram/RSD any decent dmg dealer will knock seven shades of **** out of you long before you buddies could get in system and warp to you.

If the ship is designed as a covOPs big brother, as a stealthy tackler, then wth can it not do its job? Razz

I'm only really angry because this mean i have to waste 20days+ skill training on cald cruiser to 5 for the falcon Mad


 

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