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Gadfly Hawke
Posted - 2006.03.09 22:46:00 - [1]
 

Doing some calculations using the ore calculator at http://www.evegeek.com/orecalc.php. I've suspected for some time that refining the common ores (I mine massive scordite) yields a lower price than the ores. I haven't checked the exotic ores but I suspect that the result is probably about the same. Using my standing in my base refinery and pumping up my skills, and using spot market prices for ore, trit, and pyr, the total sales price for the trit and pyr is less than the sales price for the ore. It's my opinion that the only way this could possibly happen is if the market is manipulated, for whatever reason. Any thoughts?


Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.03.09 22:52:00 - [2]
 

Are you using buy order prices for minerals or bulk sell order prices (more accurate)?

Are you assuming perfect refining?

SadisticSavior
Caldari
Posted - 2006.03.09 22:57:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: SadisticSavior on 09/03/2006 22:57:46
One thing that I hadnt considered before last night: Not all reprocessing is equal.

So while the minerals you extract might not have more value than the ore to you, someone else might be able to buy your ore and extract minerals out of it that ARE worth more than the ore. Skills affect how much waste is produced when you refine ore.

So if you've got the skills, you can (I assume) get more for the minerals than the ore. If your skills suck, it is more worth your while to sell the ore sometimes.

Thats my impression of how the system works and it makes sense to me.

Gadfly Hawke
Posted - 2006.03.09 22:58:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Dark Shikari
Are you using buy order prices for minerals or bulk sell order prices (more accurate)?

Are you assuming perfect refining?

I used buy order prices. For a seller, why would sell order prices be more accurate? Using the highest refining possible (it's not perfect, but nearly so) at Refining Efficiency 5 and Scordite Specialization 5.


Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.03.09 23:00:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Dark Shikari on 09/03/2006 22:59:46
Originally by: Gadfly Hawke
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Are you using buy order prices for minerals or bulk sell order prices (more accurate)?

Are you assuming perfect refining?

I used buy order prices. For a seller, why would sell order prices be more accurate? Using the highest refining possible (it's not perfect, but nearly so) at Refining Efficiency 5 and Scordite Specialization 5.


Because they are most likely doing one of two things with the ore:

1. Buying it to supplement their own mineral buying for production. In this case, only sell orders matter. You can't buy from a buy order.

2. Buying it to resell AT SELL ORDER PRICES. They're not reselling to the low-priced buy orders.

P.S. Refining 5/4/2 or 5/5/1 is perfect.

Gadfly Hawke
Posted - 2006.03.09 23:13:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Dark Shikari
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 09/03/2006 22:59:46
Originally by: Gadfly Hawke
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Are you using buy order prices for minerals or bulk sell order prices (more accurate)?

Are you assuming perfect refining?

I used buy order prices. For a seller, why would sell order prices be more accurate? Using the highest refining possible (it's not perfect, but nearly so) at Refining Efficiency 5 and Scordite Specialization 5.


Because they are most likely doing one of two things with the ore:

1. Buying it to supplement their own mineral buying for production. In this case, only sell orders matter. You can't buy from a buy order.

2. Buying it to resell AT SELL ORDER PRICES. They're not reselling to the low-priced buy orders.

P.S. Refining 5/4/2 or 5/5/1 is perfect.

Yes, you don't need 5/5/5 to get perfect -- I just used that to eliminate any questions about using high enough skill levels.

Somebody buying ore to refine it to minerals for resale has to buy at the offer (seller price), but he has to sell the minerals at the bid (buyer price). The difference between ore and minerals makes buying ore to sell minerals outrageously unprofitable.


Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.03.09 23:14:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Gadfly Hawke

Somebody buying ore to refine it to minerals for resale has to buy at the offer (seller price), but he has to sell the minerals at the bid (buyer price). The difference between ore and minerals makes buying ore to sell minerals outrageously unprofitable.


No, he doesn't. He can create his own sell order, you know? Wink

The purpose of most buy orders is not to actually buy what someone needs but to sc**** off the bottom of the market by offering a lower price.

Gadfly Hawke
Posted - 2006.03.09 23:30:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Gadfly Hawke

Somebody buying ore to refine it to minerals for resale has to buy at the offer (seller price), but he has to sell the minerals at the bid (buyer price). The difference between ore and minerals makes buying ore to sell minerals outrageously unprofitable.


No, he doesn't. He can create his own sell order, you know? Wink

The purpose of most buy orders is not to actually buy what someone needs but to sc**** off the bottom of the market by offering a lower price.

Sure he can create a sell order. This will work if the relative volume of sell orders is small and the relative volume of buy orders is large (that is, if demand exceeds supply, which is frequently the case for ores), but that isn't normally the case. Typically, volumes seem to be roughly equal, without going into a calculation. In any case, the seller may be stuck with a long wait, if he's waiting for a buyer to match his offer. Sellers with a closer time horizon will sell at the bid and beat out the waiter.


Suren Segolia
Posted - 2006.03.10 00:13:00 - [9]
 

I place sell orders for all my mins. I review both the buy and sell orders and look at the market history. I also write down what my previous sells were for. Then I place a sell order for what I feel will sell for 1) the most and 2) within 2 weeks. I'm never really ever strapped for cash and most of the mins sell with in a week time. I've boosted my trade skills so that I can have bunches of sell orders out there. Once a sell order for trit is done, I put another one out there from the stuff I've been mining.

Once I've gotten my refining skills up there, I've never sold for less then what I could have gotten for the ore. I do spot check weekly just to make sure.

But, while the trit is close, the isogen isn't - I mine kernite mostly, but I move into a belt and just start with kernite, then the lesser ores until I'm done for the night (belt empty or it's time for bed).

Hope this helps,

Suren.

Hope this helps

Gadfly Hawke
Posted - 2006.03.10 00:24:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Suren Segolia
I place sell orders for all my mins. I review both the buy and sell orders and look at the market history. I also write down what my previous sells were for. Then I place a sell order for what I feel will sell for 1) the most and 2) within 2 weeks. I'm never really ever strapped for cash and most of the mins sell with in a week time. I've boosted my trade skills so that I can have bunches of sell orders out there. Once a sell order for trit is done, I put another one out there from the stuff I've been mining.

Once I've gotten my refining skills up there, I've never sold for less then what I could have gotten for the ore. I do spot check weekly just to make sure.

But, while the trit is close, the isogen isn't - I mine kernite mostly, but I move into a belt and just start with kernite, then the lesser ores until I'm done for the night (belt empty or it's time for bed).

Hope this helps,

Suren.

Hope this helps

Do you have max recovery skills? This isn't relevant to the issue that I raised, just curious. Smile


Suren Segolia
Posted - 2006.03.10 00:29:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Gadfly HawkeDo you have max recovery skills? This isn't relevant to the issue that I raised, just curious. [:)





My refining skills are enough for 0 loss at a 50% station. I think it's Refining V, Refining Efficiency IV and Ore Specifics at least to III (working on 4 do to T2 crystals).

I also have my tax down to about 2%. That takes a bunch of work.

Hope this helps,

Suren

Livia Tarquina
Amarr
Posted - 2006.03.10 01:12:00 - [12]
 

I've made way more money selling the minerals than what it cost to buy the ore. The volume of minerals you get from refining makes a lot of money. 10,000 units of veldspar might go for 4.50 per unit on average. Thats 45,000 ISK. Tritanium might go on a good day around 1.50ISK that's lower right?

But 10,000 of veld is actually 87,500 of trit with no refining skills. So when you sell it you make 131,250ISK.

Livia Tarquina
Amarr
Posted - 2006.03.10 01:20:00 - [13]
 

Yeah, don't believe the buy orders. They're are way more people buying immediately at the sellers price and that doesn't get shown. I've sold many items that the market window said nobody was buying in the region. Nope, people were buying furiously.

Gadfly Hawke
Posted - 2006.03.10 02:20:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Livia Tarquina
I've made way more money selling the minerals than what it cost to buy the ore. The volume of minerals you get from refining makes a lot of money. 10,000 units of veldspar might go for 4.50 per unit on average. Thats 45,000 ISK. Tritanium might go on a good day around 1.50ISK that's lower right?

But 10,000 of veld is actually 87,500 of trit with no refining skills. So when you sell it you make 131,250ISK.

According to the Ore Calculator, 10,000 veld yields 27,488 trit. At $1.50, that's 41,232 ISK for the trit, which is just a tad below the 45,000 ISK for the veld, for zero refining skills.


Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.03.10 02:35:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Gadfly Hawke
Originally by: Livia Tarquina
I've made way more money selling the minerals than what it cost to buy the ore. The volume of minerals you get from refining makes a lot of money. 10,000 units of veldspar might go for 4.50 per unit on average. Thats 45,000 ISK. Tritanium might go on a good day around 1.50ISK that's lower right?

But 10,000 of veld is actually 87,500 of trit with no refining skills. So when you sell it you make 131,250ISK.

According to the Ore Calculator, 10,000 veld yields 27,488 trit. At $1.50, that's 41,232 ISK for the trit, which is just a tad below the 45,000 ISK for the veld, for zero refining skills.



Considering that even regular, non-dense/condensed veldspar gives 30,000 trit per 10k veld or so, that ore calculator sounds like it sucks.

Gadfly Hawke
Posted - 2006.03.10 02:49:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Gadfly Hawke on 10/03/2006 02:50:51
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Considering that even regular, non-dense/condensed veldspar gives 30,000 trit per 10k veld or so, that ore calculator sounds like it sucks.

At max recovery, it's 31,414 units of trit for 10k of veld, which gives 47,121 ISK. But she specified no refining skills, which yielded the lower recovery. And in any case, it's way below the 87,500 trit that she indicated.


Velen Gulden
Posted - 2006.03.10 03:13:00 - [17]
 

Have you tried to look at other systems for a better price.
For example my latest load of Isogen would have fetched 4,000,000 at the station I was at but 11 jumps away I got 7,000,000, so spending half an hour travelling earned me 3 Mil.
Makes quite a bit of difference to shop around, I learned quickly that one must get comfortable with moving between systems if one wants to get ahead.

Lygos
Amarr
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2006.03.10 03:38:00 - [18]
 

If refining took time and resources, there would be more of a market in this area perhaps.

It would also free up/replace less relevant time sinks, such as can chasing, or miner cycle time.

Gadfly Hawke
Posted - 2006.03.10 04:19:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Velen Gulden
Have you tried to look at other systems for a better price.
For example my latest load of Isogen would have fetched 4,000,000 at the station I was at but 11 jumps away I got 7,000,000, so spending half an hour travelling earned me 3 Mil.
Makes quite a bit of difference to shop around, I learned quickly that one must get comfortable with moving between systems if one wants to get ahead.

I viewed the market region wide, but I haven't examined the more exotic ores or minerals, just trit and pyr. But my question isn't about price in one system versus another, I've found large discrepancies for trit across just a couple of systems. My observation (assuming that it's valid) is that there is insufficient value added through refining to justify refining compared to just selling the ore. I haven't looked at a comparison of regions. Such a comparison may yield balancing discrepancies that cause the galaxy as a whole to add value for refining, but I haven't found a quick way to compare regions.


Gadfly Hawke
Posted - 2006.03.10 04:22:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Lygos
If refining took time and resources, there would be more of a market in this area perhaps.

It would also free up/replace less relevant time sinks, such as can chasing, or miner cycle time.


Actually, refining does consume resources, in the form of refinery fee, the cost of the skill books, and the time spent training refining skill that could possibly be spent on more profitable training.


Lygos
Amarr
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2006.03.10 04:56:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Gadfly Hawke

Actually, refining does consume resources, in the form of refinery fee, the cost of the skill books, and the time spent training refining skill that could possibly be spent on more profitable training.




Yeah, but it's over as soon as you click the button. If you clicked the button and had to wait till morning to get the end product, CCP would be free to nerf other downtimes and also to create a real estate boom with POS and similir structures.

Gadfly Hawke
Posted - 2006.03.10 05:28:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Lygos
Originally by: Gadfly Hawke

Actually, refining does consume resources, in the form of refinery fee, the cost of the skill books, and the time spent training refining skill that could possibly be spent on more profitable training.




Yeah, but it's over as soon as you click the button. If you clicked the button and had to wait till morning to get the end product, CCP would be free to nerf other downtimes and also to create a real estate boom with POS and similir structures.


Why? CCP does that with research and manufacturing now. Why would refining be any different? I think the reason that refining is instantaneous is to avoid making newbies put up with long wait times. By the time they get to manufacturing they know what to expect.


Livia Tarquina
Amarr
Posted - 2006.03.10 06:42:00 - [23]
 

Might it be Macroers having an effect? They like veld and scor. But so do corps building big ships so I don't know.

Livia Tarquina
Amarr
Posted - 2006.03.10 06:57:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Livia Tarquina on 10/03/2006 06:57:33
I know it's not exactly like real life but this game is closer than most games. Companies are always trying for more effiency, less wasted time, higher yields, cheap and faster manufacturing. It's simply replicating to some degree real problems.

And for many industry is their profession so their time is being spent in the right area

Marcus Tedric
Gallente
Tedric Enterprises
Crimson Steel Empire
Posted - 2006.03.10 09:14:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Gadfly Hawke
Edited by: Gadfly Hawke on 10/03/2006 02:50:51
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Considering that even regular, non-dense/condensed veldspar gives 30,000 trit per 10k veld or so, that ore calculator sounds like it sucks.

At max recovery, it's 31,414 units of trit for 10k of veld, which gives 47,121 ISK. But she specified no refining skills, which yielded the lower recovery. And in any case, it's way below the 87,500 trit that she indicated.




Please may I ask where these figures are coming from? I ask, because I buy both Ore and Mins and have a very easy spredsheet to help out determining which is better...

The refining packet size for Veldspar is 333 units, which will give a grand total of 1,000 Tritanium (whether or not you have perfect refine or any taxes).

So, 10,000 Veld will yield 30 refining packets with a little bit left over - giving exactly 30,000 Tritanium.

So, to someone with perfect refine and no taxes - Veld at 4.5 (very high IMHO) and Trit at 1.5 are exactly the same.

BTW - You can get perfect refine at a 50% station with only Refining V, Ref Eff III and Ore Spec II and then Standing to the NPC Corp of 6.67

Regards

Gadfly Hawke
Posted - 2006.03.10 14:32:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Marcus Tedric
Originally by: Gadfly Hawke
Edited by: Gadfly Hawke on 10/03/2006 02:50:51
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Considering that even regular, non-dense/condensed veldspar gives 30,000 trit per 10k veld or so, that ore calculator sounds like it sucks.

At max recovery, it's 31,414 units of trit for 10k of veld, which gives 47,121 ISK. But she specified no refining skills, which yielded the lower recovery. And in any case, it's way below the 87,500 trit that she indicated.




Please may I ask where these figures are coming from? I ask, because I buy both Ore and Mins and have a very easy spredsheet to help out determining which is better...

The refining packet size for Veldspar is 333 units, which will give a grand total of 1,000 Tritanium (whether or not you have perfect refine or any taxes).

So, 10,000 Veld will yield 30 refining packets with a little bit left over - giving exactly 30,000 Tritanium.

So, to someone with perfect refine and no taxes - Veld at 4.5 (very high IMHO) and Trit at 1.5 are exactly the same.

BTW - You can get perfect refine at a 50% station with only Refining V, Ref Eff III and Ore Spec II and then Standing to the NPC Corp of 6.67

Regards

My numbers are from the ore calculator at http://www.evegeek.com/orecalc.php. I'm not sure if it takes into account the "portions" of 333 units, but I don't think so. I notice that your standing is 6.67. How do you get such a standing? Mine is 0.2607. The standing would affect the fee paid to the refinery, which could be the difference between profit or loss on refining versus selling the ore. The standing is at least partially based on skills. Currently, my skill is Refining lvl 4. That was really what motivated this exercise. I wanted to be sure that an investment of ISK and time into pursuing mining followed by "perfect" refining would be worthwhile, as opposed to buying minerals for manufacturing from the market. My conclusion so far is that over time it will most likely be a draw, which by default throws the favor to buying the minerals.


Understudy
Gallente
UK Corp
FATAL Alliance
Posted - 2006.03.10 14:57:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Understudy on 10/03/2006 14:59:49
Originally by: Marcus Tedric
BTW - You can get perfect refine at a 50% station with only Refining V, Ref Eff III and Ore Spec II and then Standing to the NPC Corp of 6.67
I get 0 wastage with V / III / II at a 50% station.... I'm a migrant, so my standing with the station corp is less than 1 ( actually less than 0.5 ) - the standing affects their cut (tax), not the efficiency of the refining..

Does a standing 6.7 mean no tax ? (does that include any social / trade skills ) ?

Are there any stations better than 50% ?

Maxell Snow
Gallente
True Core
Posted - 2006.03.10 15:34:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Understudy


Does a standing 6.7 mean no tax ? (does that include any social / trade skills ) ?

Are there any stations better than 50% ?


pos's are above 50%...6.7 does mean no taxes...and that may or may not be with connection skills, or whichever it is that improves corp relations...

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.03.10 16:26:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Maxell Snow

pos's are above 50%

No they aren't.

With perfect skills, a POS intensive refinery gives a mere 75%.

Understudy
Gallente
UK Corp
FATAL Alliance
Posted - 2006.03.10 16:28:00 - [30]
 

So 50% is as good at it gets ? Crying or Very sad


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