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Shaelin Corpius
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.03.04 23:30:00 - [1]
 

Well This has to be the utmost absurd thing that can happen in eve.

What in the world does a warp scrampler have to do with a Jump drive? The smallest of ships can render a Dreadnought unable to use its massive jump drive to enter and exit systems.

A frigate should not be able to accomplish this, nor should a cruiser. Maybe a cruiser, but if you think about it. The sheer energy it would take to render a jump drive inept should be alot more than a simple 4 cap for a warp scramble.

Warp drives are a separate entity from jump drives. As it takes thousands of cap to make a jump, it should take thousands of cap to hold one down.

They need to make a Jump Drive Scramble module. That has to be fit on a much larger ship. Because as it stands, warp scrambling a Dread makes absolutely no sense and technically shouldn't work at all. Because you can jump through a gate scrambled in any other ship.

Aramova
Reikoku
KenZoku
Posted - 2006.03.04 23:32:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Aramova on 04/03/2006 23:32:45
I agree, although it should be the T2 version of the normal scramble module, and use fuel like a Cyno field.

Make them limited, and make it so you need to play for them, not just "Hey joe, put this on your 'rax incase we come across a dread"

Highly nerfed, along the lines of Scan Probe Launchers, Cyno fields, and such.

Tauruz
Posted - 2006.03.04 23:33:00 - [3]
 

I invoke the Chewbacca Defense.


KirikaPhoenix
Phrixus Mot
Posted - 2006.03.04 23:40:00 - [4]
 

Warp scramblers work by jamming a targets navigation computers so it can't lock onto the gravitional mass it requires to go into warp :)

Stargates have a permanent wormhole open between 2 gates. When you 'jump' system you are simply entering the wormhole. Ergo a scrambler has no effect

Dreadnought has a jump drive similar to a stargate. It locks onto the massive gravitional waves eminating from a cyno field and engages a mini wormhole that the dread slips through. This requires the use of a navigation computer to lock onto the target :)

All according to the backstory. So in theory if you want to prevent ships from jumping system you scramble the stargate XD

Shaelin Corpius
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.03.04 23:46:00 - [5]
 

The module should not have any name to do with Warp Scrambling.

It needs to be named Jump Drive Inhibitor I, and Jump Drive Inhibtor II. And the skills to use it should something as such.

Tech 1 version
Capital Propulsion Jamming lvl1
Propulsion Jamming LVL5
Electronics LVL4
Navigation LVL4
Engineering lvl5
and some others

Tech 2
Capital Propulsion Jamming lvl4
Propulsion Jamming Lvl5
Electronics Lvl5
Navigation lvl5
Engineering lvl5

Modules should be somewhere around this.

Tech 1
Fitting 225 cpu 650 pwrgrid
Fuel
300 Liquid ozone
Duration
45 seconds
Range 15km

Tech 2
Fitting 250 cpu, 725 pwrgrid
Fuel
330 Liquid ozone
Duration
60 seconds
Range 22km

Now the skill for Capital prop jamming would reduce the amount of fuel used to attempt the jam. And all ur other skiills would increase the time the module cycles.

This is pretty much the only way this should work.


lasarith
Gallente
Posted - 2006.03.04 23:47:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Shaelin Corpius
Well This has to be the utmost absurd thing that can happen in eve.

What in the world does a warp scrampler have to do with a Jump drive? The smallest of ships can render a Dreadnought unable to use its massive jump drive to enter and exit systems.

A frigate should not be able to accomplish this, nor should a cruiser. Maybe a cruiser, but if you think about it. The sheer energy it would take to render a jump drive inept should be alot more than a simple 4 cap for a warp scramble.

Warp drives are a separate entity from jump drives. As it takes thousands of cap to make a jump, it should take thousands of cap to hold one down.

They need to make a Jump Drive Scramble module. That has to be fit on a much larger ship. Because as it stands, warp scrambling a Dread makes absolutely no sense and technically shouldn't work at all. Because you can jump through a gate scrambled in any other ship.


They need to make a Jump Drive Scramble module.
you said it.

Tauruz
Posted - 2006.03.04 23:52:00 - [7]
 

I disagree. Any attempt to prevent a dread from jumping should require interference to the cynosural field. The ideal module would be something along the lines of a 'cynosural field jammer', thereby requiring similar fitting etc and some form of ice product as fuel.


Aramova
Reikoku
KenZoku
Posted - 2006.03.04 23:52:00 - [8]
 

--Agreed, thanks for thinking up all the details for me :)

Originally by: Shaelin Corpius
The module should not have any name to do with Warp Scrambling.

It needs to be named Jump Drive Inhibitor I, and Jump Drive Inhibtor II. And the skills to use it should something as such.

Tech 1 version
Capital Propulsion Jamming lvl1
Propulsion Jamming LVL5
Electronics LVL4
Navigation LVL4
Engineering lvl5
and some others

Tech 2
Capital Propulsion Jamming lvl4
Propulsion Jamming Lvl5
Electronics Lvl5
Navigation lvl5
Engineering lvl5

Modules should be somewhere around this.

Tech 1
Fitting 225 cpu 650 pwrgrid
Fuel
300 Liquid ozone
Duration
45 seconds
Range 15km

Tech 2
Fitting 250 cpu, 725 pwrgrid
Fuel
330 Liquid ozone
Duration
60 seconds
Range 22km

Now the skill for Capital prop jamming would reduce the amount of fuel used to attempt the jam. And all ur other skiills would increase the time the module cycles.

This is pretty much the only way this should work.



Aramova
Reikoku
KenZoku
Posted - 2006.03.04 23:53:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Tauruz
I disagree. Any attempt to prevent a dread from jumping should require interference to the cynosural field. The ideal module would be something along the lines of a 'cynosural field jammer', thereby requiring similar fitting etc and some form of ice product as fuel.




That's not a bad idea too, but as Carriers can jump 11-15 lightyears, that field could be 8-20 real-jumps away

Most people would hate those... although as a capital ship mover, I like the idea :)

Shaelin Corpius
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.03.04 23:54:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: KirikaPhoenix
Warp scramblers work by jamming a targets navigation computers so it can't lock onto the gravitional mass it requires to go into warp :)

Stargates have a permanent wormhole open between 2 gates. When you 'jump' system you are simply entering the wormhole. Ergo a scrambler has no effect

Dreadnought has a jump drive similar to a stargate. It locks onto the massive gravitional waves eminating from a cyno field and engages a mini wormhole that the dread slips through. This requires the use of a navigation computer to lock onto the target :)

All according to the backstory. So in theory if you want to prevent ships from jumping system you scramble the stargate XD


But, if you think about that, that is a contradiction in itself. The ships navigation computer when scrambled, if it works as you say, is basically transmitting a coordinate lock through a wormhole. If the naviagtion is inept when scrambled, you should not be able to jump a gate due to your computer failing to lock onto a mass. Both systems should work the same and must work in unisen for a true jump to work properly. And warp scramblers which are a very weak module, should not be able to render a Capital ships computer inept.

Think of the sheer construction differences between the two ships. They seriously need to rethink how this operation works. Because a capital ship would have several thousand naviagtion systems running inside its mainframe, while a frigate would only have a couple.

This would automatically make the scramble strength on it if its goign to work as so to about 20+. Now if you put 20 scrams on a Cap ship, I could see how this could start to affects its massive navigation construction. Think of how many jump bridge arrays and jump drive modules it takes to build a cap ship. Each of these arrays are the size and complexity of a cruiser.

Therefore should add a +1 for each component. I hardly doubt any that during the invention of these ships, that the scientist and engineers were designing it so that a simple Velator can render it useless.

Crucifier
Gank Bangers
Moar Tears
Posted - 2006.03.04 23:57:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Tauruz
I invoke the Chewbacca Defense.




ROFL! If i wouldve been eating something i would have needed another keyboard by now Laughing

Shaelin Corpius
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.03.05 00:03:00 - [12]
 

And ur right about the cynos effect. The module would in turn create a Field around the target capital ship to make the computer system onboard fail to communicate with its current cynos field.

It really needs to be worked out.

If you think hard about this and turn it into a real life situation.

A navy frigate on the open seas come up to a Carrier class ship and shoots a harpoon into the hull and turns around to slow the ship from escaping. And the carrier class ship is stuck and can't do anything? LoL.

"OMG sir, there a frig with a poon in our hull! I'm afraid we won't make port!"

KirikaPhoenix
Phrixus Mot
Posted - 2006.03.05 00:13:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: KirikaPhoenix on 05/03/2006 00:16:48
The navigation computers are scanning for large gravitational anomilies, the sort of size caused by twin binary stars interacting with each others gravitational fields. Stargates have a method of creating an artifical gravitational field that works on the same principle that a laser does (photons are trapped, reflected, laser builds up. Gravitational waves are trapped inside a Bosson sphere, build up, mass gravitational field). A cynosural field does the same, I can only assume the field generator is a Bosson sphere.

A dreadnoughts navigation systems would be scanning for the gravitational signature of the cynosural field. Once its locked on, it generates its own mass gravitational field and extends the influence of the field to match onto the cyno field. This is why the dread requires the fuel to jump, its expending it generating the energy to reach out and grab the 'hook' end, a ship with a cyno field generator has nowhere near the energy or reactors to generate a wormhole.

Once all thats done, wormhole pops open and dread slips through :)

A warp scrambler simply jams the ability of the dread to detect a cyno field. Like an active radar jamming system, it spams the local area with waves / particles designed to interfere with the gravitational waves the dread would detect. It's not that the dread's system aren't powerful enough, its simply that the dread is receiving static on the radio and can't find any fields.

Or least thats as best as I can argue with whats in the game atm and what the backstory tells us Very Happy

Jaddor
Posted - 2006.03.05 00:17:00 - [14]
 

My response is the same as those who think its ok to suicide gank in Jita.

Bring escorts, scrambling solved!


Tauruz
Posted - 2006.03.05 00:19:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Shaelin Corpius
And ur right about the cynos effect. The module would in turn create a Field around the target capital ship to make the computer system onboard fail to communicate with its current cynos field.

It really needs to be worked out.

If you think hard about this and turn it into a real life situation.

A navy frigate on the open seas come up to a Carrier class ship and shoots a harpoon into the hull and turns around to slow the ship from escaping. And the carrier class ship is stuck and can't do anything? LoL.

"OMG sir, there a frig with a poon in our hull! I'm afraid we won't make port!"


Queegueq was quite handy with a harpoon...


Eric Sorensen
Posted - 2006.03.05 00:20:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: KirikaPhoenix
Warp scramblers work by jamming a targets navigation computers so it can't lock onto the gravitional mass it requires to go into warp :)

Stargates have a permanent wormhole open between 2 gates. When you 'jump' system you are simply entering the wormhole. Ergo a scrambler has no effect

Dreadnought has a jump drive similar to a stargate. It locks onto the massive gravitional waves eminating from a cyno field and engages a mini wormhole that the dread slips through. This requires the use of a navigation computer to lock onto the target :)

All according to the backstory. So in theory if you want to prevent ships from jumping system you scramble the stargate XD


If this were true wouldn't fitting ECCM prevent one from getting scrambled? I was under the impression that a warp scrambler has a physical effect on a ship's warp drives, and that they don't just jam a ship's navigation computers.

KirikaPhoenix
Phrixus Mot
Posted - 2006.03.05 00:23:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: KirikaPhoenix on 05/03/2006 00:35:57
Warp Scrambler I
---------------------
Disrupts the target ship's navigation computer which prevents it from warping.

Warp Core Stabilizer I
---------------------
When activated this unit attempts to compensate for fluctuations and disruptions of the ships warp core.


Which makes no sense actually :/ Unless the nav systems are actually part of the 'Warp Core' itself


That said, it screws my argument about blanket jamming the grav field Very Happy

Corp Scammer
Posted - 2006.03.05 08:35:00 - [18]
 

well jump drive jammer tho dreads should have support fleets anyway

Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.03.05 11:01:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Rod Blaine on 05/03/2006 11:01:59

I'd say capital ships being able to be scrambled by use of normals scramblers is just fine.

You do want one to die at some point do you ? You really suspect that many will if you need propulsion jamming 5 and a specific capitol module as prequisite to scrambling a dread ?

As for the whole backstory/rl-comparison argumentation, that's all hogwash and utterly irrelevant. I'm surprised people are actually arguiing about it Confused So what is the description isnt right ? CCP can change the description...duh.

Now, there is one point to be made imo for making scrambling dreads harder. That is the fact that titans and motherships cannot be scrambled at all. I think they all should be able to be scrambled in the same way, which must be relatively easy altho it can be somewhat harder then now maybe.

How about giving them a higher basic warpcore strength or someting ? Or limiting scrmabling of them to mobile warp disruptors and interdictor fields ?

ToxicFire
Phoenix Knights
Posted - 2006.03.05 11:05:00 - [20]
 

/Signed

Originally by: Shaelin Corpius
The module should not have any name to do with Warp Scrambling.

It needs to be named Jump Drive Inhibitor I, and Jump Drive Inhibtor II. And the skills to use it should something as such.

Tech 1 version
Capital Propulsion Jamming lvl1
Propulsion Jamming LVL5
Electronics LVL4
Navigation LVL4
Engineering lvl5
and some others

Tech 2
Capital Propulsion Jamming lvl4
Propulsion Jamming Lvl5
Electronics Lvl5
Navigation lvl5
Engineering lvl5

Modules should be somewhere around this.

Tech 1
Fitting 225 cpu 650 pwrgrid
Fuel
300 Liquid ozone
Duration
45 seconds
Range 15km

Tech 2
Fitting 250 cpu, 725 pwrgrid
Fuel
330 Liquid ozone
Duration
60 seconds
Range 22km

Now the skill for Capital prop jamming would reduce the amount of fuel used to attempt the jam. And all ur other skiills would increase the time the module cycles.

This is pretty much the only way this should work.



nickycakes
Game-Over
Insurgency
Posted - 2006.03.05 11:10:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: nickycakes on 05/03/2006 11:10:23
Exactly what this game needs. More ways to make new players less viable in pvp. Kudos on another brilliant idea. Not.

omgwtfyarrbbq
Posted - 2006.03.05 11:13:00 - [22]
 

/signed.
But make an interdication bubble that can do it, rather than a regular module fitted to a ship. This way, the interdicators get a really really specialised role, and arent just left out in fleet warfare Very Happy

lofty29
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.03.05 11:13:00 - [23]
 

GRR Damned alts!

Cpt Abestos
Mean Corp
Mean Coalition
Posted - 2006.03.05 11:15:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Shaelin Corpius
The module should not have any name to do with Warp Scrambling.

It needs to be named Jump Drive Inhibitor I, and Jump Drive Inhibtor II. And the skills to use it should something as such.

Tech 1 version
Capital Propulsion Jamming lvl1
Propulsion Jamming LVL5
Electronics LVL4
Navigation LVL4
Engineering lvl5
and some others

Tech 2
Capital Propulsion Jamming lvl4
Propulsion Jamming Lvl5
Electronics Lvl5
Navigation lvl5
Engineering lvl5

Modules should be somewhere around this.

Tech 1
Fitting 225 cpu 650 pwrgrid
Fuel
300 Liquid ozone
Duration
45 seconds
Range 15km

Tech 2
Fitting 250 cpu, 725 pwrgrid
Fuel
330 Liquid ozone
Duration
60 seconds
Range 22km

Now the skill for Capital prop jamming would reduce the amount of fuel used to attempt the jam. And all ur other skiills would increase the time the module cycles.

This is pretty much the only way this should work.


give a fuel/cpu usage bonus to interdictors and that could work nicely

Star'mist
Posted - 2006.03.05 11:16:00 - [25]
 

Great ideas, but a more simple and (semi) realistic solution would be


give all dreads +5/10 to warp core strength by default so u need at least 5 people to hold one down or somthing like that.....

keeps things simple and hopefully would make people happy :)

ok 3,2,1 FLAME ME!
:D

Tibi
Zoners
Posted - 2006.03.05 11:16:00 - [26]
 

Personally i agree that a simple warp scramble should not be able to counter the jump ability. Therefore /signed.

T.

Alindyar
Insurgent New Eden Tribe
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2006.03.05 11:21:00 - [27]
 

Well assume CCP would indeed implement this idea, which isn't a bad idea after all.

But shouldn't it just be fair that using a "jump drive jammer" or whatever name it's given also be able to prevent "normal ships" from using a normal stargate. IOW u can't jump out of the system as soon as the mod is on u're ship??

would make (empire) wars so more interesting........

Hinik
Grumpy Old Farts
Gruntfuttocks
Posted - 2006.03.05 11:21:00 - [28]
 

the thing is, you shouldn't have a problem with warp scrambling, as you should have support wherever you take your dread... they're not designed to be used on their own, and if all the support dies fast and all that's left is you in your dread... you should be F****ed, dreds shouldn't have the ability to go into battle, then when all turns against them leave and save themselves (unless someone has the luck and good sense to fit a jump drive inhibitor)

no dreds would ever die.


 

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