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Lienzo
Minmatar
Amanuensis
Posted - 2006.03.04 06:06:00 - [1]
 

Here's the rub on Caldari Cruiser missile bays:

Heavy launchers do plenty adequate damage on t1 frigates due to their slowness to make assault launchers redundant. 2 Heavies does between 7 and 12dps (~30dps from Caracal) on a 25% stat depending on skills. Not many pvp frigs shield tank. That's at or above the limit on a frig's tanking.

That's not even with a webber going.

When it comes to an inty doing 4-5km/s, the limited advantage of assault launchers is too marginal to make a difference. Instead of boost light missiles, I have a different idea.

Let's take away the Assault Launcher's innate RoF bonus (less lag too) and replace it with a 25-50% reduction to the effect of speed on all light missiles. This should make MWDing cepters take similar damage to ABing cepters take with heavies.

Screwing around with sig mod is useless on a mwding cepter b/c it has ~130m sig anyhow. So it needs to be speed. This will make assault launchers pwn on cepters.

If you wanna decrease the heavy missiles explosion velocity by 5-10% from 750, that would be nice too. Alternately, increase the base speed of most t1 frigs a little bit, especially for the ones with sigs over 40m.

The end result of this is making cruisers able to hurt cepters bad, but only if they nerf themselves quite a bit against other cruisers.

Sam Albertek
Posted - 2006.03.04 06:29:00 - [2]
 

its called a nosferatu.

Lienzo
Minmatar
Amanuensis
Posted - 2006.03.04 07:32:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Lienzo on 04/03/2006 07:33:47
Medium nos doesn't work out past 12.5km ya know.

Not everyone likes a close range setup. Not even frigates. If you didn't notice, not one medium turret can really hit a frigate between 12-18km. Maybe ACs or Neuts w/good falloff skills, but it will still be an odd hit.

This has nothing to do with NOS anyway, sheesh.

This change would allow us to set heavy missiles back to 150m.

Daos Leghki
Paxton Industries
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2006.03.04 11:36:00 - [4]
 

Do missile users really need more ability to pwn anything within range? Most ships can't even touch these and the missile ships can at least do damage. Maybe it's just cause I'm peeved at Caldari, so take this with a grain of salt ;P

Corp Scammer
Posted - 2006.03.04 11:41:00 - [5]
 

mmm perhaps fit smaller rocket and missiles to youre cruiser to deal with frigate ceptors ? id still like to see a cruiser with 3 railgun and 3 turret slots (5% bonus to dmg across lasers missiles projectiles and railguns) perhaps a angel ship. Or one of the NPC corps interbus - concord agents when they come back. Not sure but some ideas to play with agree tho the sig radius is a touchy subject on the other hand all races need to be reasonably balanced in the right circumstances - the calderi have been focused because 40% of all players are calderi (closer to 50% i think)

Lienzo
Minmatar
Amanuensis
Posted - 2006.03.05 09:00:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Daos Leghki
Do missile users really need more ability to pwn anything within range? Most ships can't even touch these and the missile ships can at least do damage.


The goal is to make a ship fit for what it might accomplish. At the moment, although the stats of the two cruiser launchers look very different, their net effect is significantly overlapped.

Originally by: Corp Scammer
mmm perhaps fit smaller rocket and missiles to youre cruiser to deal with frigate ceptors ?


I don't really think cruisers need yet another very short range frig pwning device.

Quote:
the calderi have been focused because 40% of all players are calderi (closer to 50% i think)


Overlap in weapon application tends to make a system popular. I'd say Caldari dominance is a holdover from when Torpedoes demolished Interceptors, and were still awesome at close range vs. BS. (If any of you derail my thread onto this subject I will end you.)

Titokhan Drumheller
Posted - 2006.03.07 04:36:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Lienzo
Let's take away the Assault Launcher's innate RoF bonus (less lag too) and replace it with a 25-50% reduction to the effect of speed on all light missiles. This should make MWDing cepters take similar damage to ABing cepters take with heavies.



isnt that what the guided missle precision and target navigation prediction skills is for? i havent gotten either of these trained to 5 yet, so i havent really noticed a marked increase in damage on smaller ship types yet.

a missle boat is only as good as the skills of its pilot.. gimping assualt launchers like that i dont think is the right awnser. allowing pilots with rocket/light/heavy/cruise/torp specialization the chance to tinker with exactly what thier missles can/cannot do (example.. a higher base velocity in exchange for a smaller payload or decreased flight time, the more you boost the base speed, the smaller the payload/chopped flight time. or a longer base flight time in exchange for a drop in velocity, etc) however might be if it could be done

Lienzo
Minmatar
Amanuensis
Posted - 2006.03.07 07:57:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Titokhan Drumheller

isnt that what the guided missle precision and target navigation prediction skills is for? i havent gotten either of these trained to 5 yet, so i havent really noticed a marked increase in damage on smaller ship types yet.


They make a difference on the existing abilities of the weapon system. You can see for yourself if you click on the new Missile Guide. Plug and unplug skills to see the dps changes.

Precision missiles have their place, but on the other hand, they negate the fundamental distinction between weapon systems like a heavy launcher and an assault launcher. My aim is to widen the gap between these so one may achieve noticeably different performance. Ergo, neither system is gimped, it is merely made better for a specific task, and not as good for others.

If you study the effect of light missiles on an MWDing (138m sig) in the Player Guide tool, or know by experience, once the ship is going over 4km/s, it's untouchable by cruiser systems. Some would say this is wrong considering the cruiser's role is pretty much to destroy frigates, and when you see frigates in pvp, 90% of the time it is t2 frigates.

Precision cruise missiles are ok in theory. They should do great damage agaisnt cruisers, especially those with small sigs between 105-120. Also, they should be superfluously effecient against destroyers I guess (lol). The trouble, as I stated, is that cruises are a little too efficient against Rifters and Punishers and the like. This should be metered down a little bit, but in a way that does not make the heavy missiles pale in comparison to other cruiser sized turrets systems.

Titokhan Drumheller
Posted - 2006.03.07 14:26:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Titokhan Drumheller on 07/03/2006 14:29:35
Edited by: Titokhan Drumheller on 07/03/2006 14:27:17
the missle guide is nice, but theres a few things it doesnt take into account...your missle projection and bombardment skills and if the ship your flying has missle velocity bonuses..

i havent had a load of PvP experience yet (im loading up on my skills so when i do make the move to .4 or .3 space, my skills are up to snuff with the other pilots i'll be running into)

in most cal cruisers, your absolutely right, cruiser missle systems will never catch a MWD'ing inty. A dedicated missle jockey wont be flying anyting but a Cara for its bonuses and the 5 launcher hardpoints (6 if you manage to have the cal navy cara)

k, I'll use myself as a case study here..if im flying a Cara and i have cal cruiser4, projection3, bombardment3, guided prec2 and target nav2.. my missles get a nice 70% velocity boost from the cara's ships ability and my own skills giving my light or heavy missles a velocity of 6375. im guessing that will catch even the fastest inty, as long as its orbiting me between 15-20km (this 15-20km number is using lights in an assault launcher. my max range with lights in a cara is 46km).

im guesstimating my damage vs an inty would be very good with lights and probably pretty decent with heavies assuming the 'ceptor decides to stick around. I could be wrong of course (again, i still have very little PvP expreience so it'll be something i'll have to look at eventually).

Lienzo
Minmatar
Amanuensis
Posted - 2006.03.07 21:25:00 - [10]
 

I was not aware the actual velocity of the missile made any difference in the damage done to the target.

Even Torpedoes will rapidly close in on an orbitting interceptor. What controls damage numbers are the explosion radius and explosion velocity.

I would prefer to not see a blanket increase on explosion velocity for any particular cruiser, nor a blanket improvement to light missiles. That would mess up the balance between regular frigates, and negate the benefit on missiles on cruisers in general rather than a particular cruiser.

The main key to assault launchers is that either one launcher has to have a big explosion velocity bonus and a 100% stacking penalty for additional launchers, or a very small bonus that is compounded by adding more assault launchers. Either of these solutions seems ideal to me.

Na Jenton
Posted - 2006.03.07 22:54:00 - [11]
 

from NPCing, its pretty obvious that assualts do more dps to frigates than heavies. most missions under lvl3 involve only frigates. you try killing a NPC assualt frig with a heavy, then with an assualt; you'll see a huge difference in DPS.

Lienzo
Minmatar
Amanuensis
Posted - 2006.03.08 02:18:00 - [12]
 

NPC inties are nothing like PC inties I'm afraid. Slow, low damage, and big sigs. Oh, and poor decision making behaviour.



Titokhan Drumheller
Posted - 2006.03.08 14:13:00 - [13]
 

your creating a whole new launcher for missle pilots to have to think about buying though..

perhaps a new skill (something not overly easy to qualify for, yet something a PvP missle jockey would be likely to invest in) might be the awnser

missle explosion control (or something like that) rank 4, 10% bonus to missle explosion velocity per level of skill.. with a pilot having to have a minimum of missle launcher operation 4, rockets 3, standard missles 3 and heavy missles 3 to be able to train it.. maybe making rank 4 is a little too low considering the requirements to get it, but im just using it as a reference

(note, using these qualifications.. at this point i wouldnt qualify to get this skill. but i'd be close.. 2 points into rockets)

Tok Nar
Posted - 2006.03.08 14:30:00 - [14]
 

where's the problem with making the assault launcher a new type of launcher? It's not like anyone is actually using the current one. The assault launcher should be the rocket launcher equivalent for cruisers/bc...higher rof, less range than heavy. Which it is, but it needs to have a higher rof still to become a useful alternative.

I dont use missiles at all but i think the original poster makes a perfectly valid point.

Elfaen Ethenwe
Infusion.
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2006.03.08 15:45:00 - [15]
 

whats this missiles pwn ?

now why does everyone use guns then....

If I remember the idea for assualt launchers was for a heavy rocket type so rockets / light missiels Hvy rockets / heavy missiles torps / cruise

Lienzo
Minmatar
Amanuensis
Posted - 2006.03.09 05:11:00 - [16]
 

The trouble with making it yet another skill is that:

1)new skills suck. they're pure marketing-driven, fun-delaying downtime.
2)they're generalist, meaning they basically obliterate a critically important distinction between the capacities of classes of weapon systems.

Every tool (in this case weapon system) needs a use. And that use can only be shaped by the limited usability of a different tool. Otherwise, entire tool categories become superfluous.

You choose close range turrets to excel at close range. You choose long range turrets to excel longer range. You ought to be able to choose heavy missiles to do well versus larger targets, and to choose an assault system to be scary to both frigates and interceptors.

Lienzo
Minmatar
Amanuensis
Posted - 2006.03.09 05:29:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Lienzo on 09/03/2006 05:29:25


To Nok Tar and El**** Ethenwe,

Sometime I wonder if it would be simpler if CCP just released a new 20-30km ammo type explicitly for the Assault missile launcher.

I would love to see cruisers as the archetype frigate removal platform. Combining any two turret platforms works pretty good for nailing frigates transversals, but only with target painters are missile boats really improved when working in squads, but that's only with ABing cepters because it's explosion velocity that is the central dillema here.

An assault ammo with higher explosion velocity, but relatively low damage would be desireable. Low damage for a cruiser that is, but high enough to take out a cepter.

The real difficulty is that cepters have such high damage and relatively abnormal hp. A plate cepter has around 1500hp, while a cruiser has in the low thousands. 1500hp is like 20 light missiles, or quite an absurdly long period of Caracal volleys. Cepters should go DOWN on a second full Caracal assault launch. Cepters should just be able to warp out so easily from an anti-frigate cruiser. Scaling up the damage would be ludicrous for balance vis a vis other cruisers.

The real answer is that both the role and bonuses of the cepters is messed up, and there is a missing variable needed to moderate missile damage between small and big targets. Precision missiles could be fixed to alter this in an absolute way, but they need to big damage on small targets, and tiny damage on bigger ones, and not be exploitable by Battleship sized platforms. Thus we would see the Cruiser take its rightful role on the battlefield.

Audri Fisher
Caldari
Burning Bush Enterprises
Posted - 2006.03.09 22:46:00 - [18]
 

Missle velocity doesn't determin the amount of damage done to a target, but there are ships that can flat outrun some missles with the right setup and skills. I can't recall the name of it since I havn't flown it in a while is downright Scary, with minnie frig 5, and nav 5, plus a nono in its low, along with a MWD.....
I heard a rumer to that someone got a crow up to almost 9km/s.... I dunno if that is true, it sounds absolutely outrageous, but I do't know, I have fitted cruiser sized MWD's on a frig before. you can't hardley anything else though. Anyway, the point is that you can get several ships to simply outrun some missles, therfor the missle explosion speed is worth jack ****.

Lienzo
Minmatar
Amanuensis
Posted - 2006.03.10 04:38:00 - [19]
 

The only way Crows are using standard missiles in an anticepter role against your typical >4km/s MWDing cepter is if Crows have some kind of hidden bonus to standard missiles. Standards only have like 1250m/s explosion velocity if memory serves.

There are some listed attributes that have been described to have these kinds of affects on missiles, so this wouldn't surprise me.

Rockets are not the same case, but we're talking about cruisers here, and they naturally need more frig suppression range to contribute anything useful when configured to that role.

If any Crow pilot cares to chime in, please do.

Aspiri
Posted - 2006.03.14 04:57:00 - [20]
 

your argument seems pritty consistant with the player guide on target velocity vs explosion velocity. but really.. since standard missiles and rockets are the anti frigate scale missile weapons, does it not also stand that any general boost here to them will fix this issue?

if they nurf the resistance that frigates get vs missiles (they get some from sig (every point of difference matters) and signifigantly more from explosion velocity (as it will never get near 4000m/s)) then they can lower the damage so that where sig and speed matter (frigates) will take full damage, where as cruisers are simply too big for the max damage to matter that as much as it does to smaller vessels reagardless of rof.

=tweek explosion velocity (to nurf frigate resistance), and lower damage so that it's not universally powerful.

Malthros Zenobia
Posted - 2006.03.17 06:38:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Lienzo
I would love to see cruisers as the archetype frigate removal platform.


We have Frigate killing platforms, they're called destroyers.

Hesed
Amarr
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2006.03.17 08:40:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Hesed on 17/03/2006 08:45:00
Edited by: Hesed on 17/03/2006 08:41:18
Originally by: Aspiri
your argument seems pritty consistant with the player guide on target velocity vs explosion velocity. but really.. since standard missiles and rockets are the anti frigate scale missile weapons, does it not also stand that any general boost here to them will fix this issue?

if they nurf the resistance that frigates get vs missiles (they get some from sig (every point of difference matters) and signifigantly more from explosion velocity (as it will never get near 4000m/s)) then they can lower the damage so that where sig and speed matter (frigates) will take full damage, where as cruisers are simply too big for the max damage to matter that as much as it does to smaller vessels reagardless of rof.

=tweek explosion velocity (to nurf frigate resistance), and lower damage so that it's not universally powerful.



I agree, but the change must rolled with the assault launcher because otherwise it constitutes a Crow/Kestrel boost. This would make certain parties very unhappy.


Originally by: Malthros Zenobia

We have Frigate killing platforms, they're called destroyers.


Do you see any destroyers with more than 1 missile bay? Do you see any cruiser turret systems that can track most frigates at 13km?

My gang exploits this all the time.

K Shara
Caldari
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.03.17 09:57:00 - [23]
 

didnt a dev say that assualt launchers were going to change to heavy rockets so that there was a short range high damage option for all types/

standard / rocket
heavy / assualt
cruise / torp

Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa
Minmatar
The Perfect Harvesting Experience
Posted - 2006.03.28 08:36:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Audri Fisher
Missle velocity doesn't determin the amount of damage done to a target, but there are ships that can flat outrun some missles with the right setup and skills. I can't recall the name of it since I havn't flown it in a while is downright Scary, with minnie frig 5, and nav 5, plus a nono in its low, along with a MWD.....
I heard a rumer to that someone got a crow up to almost 9km/s.... I dunno if that is true, it sounds absolutely outrageous, but I do't know, I have fitted cruiser sized MWD's on a frig before. you can't hardley anything else though. Anyway, the point is that you can get several ships to simply outrun some missles, therfor the missle explosion speed is worth jack ****.



Sorry for the hijack, but...

Please post setup.

AFAIK the is not one single T1 or T2 frigate in the game in the hands of a player that can accomplish this.

Loktane
Posted - 2006.03.28 17:55:00 - [25]
 

Erm.. but you do take into account that assault launchers only need half the powergrid than heavies ?
It seems to me like comparing small electrons to 150mm railsNeutral

Brer Lapin
Posted - 2006.06.05 12:47:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Originally by: Lienzo
I would love to see cruisers as the archetype frigate removal platform.


We have Frigate killing platforms, they're called destroyers.



Sorry Im new to this post so this may be a bit delayed but....


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Wait no ...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Wait no really was that meant to be serious ?

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2006.06.05 13:20:00 - [27]
 

Yes, just because you can't fly them dosn't mean they don't rip through frigates. Oh, not 1v1 - they're NOT designed for that, but in packs they are deadly to frigs.

Reggie Stoneloader
Poofdinkles
Posted - 2006.06.18 00:10:00 - [28]
 

I don't see any real need for this. It seems that it would allow cruisers to universally own frigates, and create a pure hierarchy of ship effectiveness based on size. I think a big ship should have a hard time contending with interceptors. That seems to me to be the role of interceptors. Precision missiles are the obvious solution, but if an inty pilot maximizes his setup to avoid cruiser-class weapon platforms, then that's just too bad for the cruiser pilot. Get some drones and a webber or something.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2006.06.18 06:50:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Tok Nar
where's the problem with making the assault launcher a new type of launcher? It's not like anyone is actually using the current one.


I use them all the time, thanks :) Not much a frig fears more than a raven with six assault launchers and a webber. Bye frig.


Kenz Rider
J Club
Posted - 2006.07.20 05:39:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader
I don't see any real need for this. It seems that it would allow cruisers to universally own frigates, and create a pure hierarchy of ship effectiveness based on size. I think a big ship should have a hard time contending with interceptors. That seems to me to be the role of interceptors. Precision missiles are the obvious solution, but if an inty pilot maximizes his setup to avoid cruiser-class weapon platforms, then that's just too bad for the cruiser pilot. Get some drones and a webber or something.


Interceptors should be very effective in mumbers against a battleship, but much less so against cruisers. However, if a cruiser is set-up wrong, it should have a weekness against an interceptor. Part of the problem is that it is difficult to set-up a non-drone using cruiser to effectively take on an interceptor.


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