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TomB

Posted - 2003.09.03 07:51:00 - [151]
 

Torps: yes it has too much max velocity, I'll fix that for next Chaos update - agility, there is still a problem with it as I stated in the first post on this thread, so its not possible to make the slow accelerating missile with out braking them.

TomB

Posted - 2003.09.03 07:53:00 - [152]
 

Edited by: TomB on 03/09/2003 08:04:25
Relax you dieman, the speed bonus for cruise missiles will probably get changed back, there was problem with launched items not getting damage bonus and there for it was given speed bonus for testing purposes, it was never suposed to go as information to players on Chaos.

Flaming changes that are not meant to go live without more tuning/testing for another week atleast can only cause changes not to happen at all.

Ana Khouri
Caldari
Doomheim
Posted - 2003.09.03 10:03:00 - [153]
 

Edited by: Ana Khouri on 03/09/2003 10:13:15
What's needed for torps is a much bigger turning arc. As it is now torps can turn on the spot - there is *no way* any ship can evade them before their 2 minutes are up - despite extensive s turns, 180 moves, etc they keep coming closer and closer and closer - the only way is to outrun them.

But you cannot use their "bad" agility against them. As it is now you could as well give all missles the same agility and only different speeds, since it doesn't matters if you try to dodge a trop or missle - both will hit you finally.

Edit: Something else - a simple proximity sensor for the "dumb" missles like torps or basic missles (basically all exept FoF or cruise) would be interesting. Meaning - they will blow up once they detect *any* object in their activation radius (they should only become active after a few secs, of cource, so hey don't blow up after they are launched).
Would be fun herding a swarm of torps back to their launcher "red october" like Very Happy

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2003.09.03 11:12:00 - [154]
 

"Meaning - they will blow up once they detect *any* object in their activation radius (they should only become active after a few secs, of cource, so hey don't blow up after they are launched)."

... Isn't it exactly like they are now, actually?.. they blow up with anything nearby, even other missiles....

Ana Khouri
Caldari
Doomheim
Posted - 2003.09.03 11:19:00 - [155]
 

Nope. At least I was MDW very closely by other ships with a sawrm of torps following me.

Ulstan
Posted - 2003.09.03 12:39:00 - [156]
 

I think light, heavy, and cruise missiles should all have good agility and good range. They are one class of missiles.

Rockets and torpedos seem to be another.

Torpedos should be very damaging, but not as agile as cruise missiles.

Currently Cruise missiles need a boost in damage and torpedos need a small boost in damage and a hefty decrease in agility.

Rising Sin
GoonFleet
Posted - 2003.09.03 13:36:00 - [157]
 

Quote:
Torps: yes it has too much max velocity, I'll fix that for next Chaos update - agility, there is still a problem with it as I stated in the first post on this thread, so its not possible to make the slow accelerating missile with out braking them.


Thanks for the heads-up TomB, I'll stop whining... for the moment Wink

Quote:
"Meaning - they will blow up once they detect *any* object in their activation radius (they should only become active after a few secs, of cource, so hey don't blow up after they are launched)."

... Isn't it exactly like they are now, actually?.. they blow up with anything nearby, even other missiles....


They were like this until very recently on Chaos. They now seem to detonate only on their target. It's a good thing as it does make missiles more useful. I do admit, it would be neat to herd a bunch of torps back toward someone Cool

Hm, speaking of recent changes on Chaos, I've noticed missiles don't give nearly the kick they used to. It occurs to me that it could be a good idea to let cruise missiles keep that good kick so as to differentiate them from torpedoes, thus giving people more of a reason to use them (and train that Missile Launcher skill to 5 Wink).

rojtat
Posted - 2003.09.03 13:56:00 - [158]
 

torps should just be able to outrun a slow bs.
resonably manuverable. i.e if fired from distance and bs gets upto speed then should escape torp(assumeing bs already moving and not going towards torp, if so boom).
damage for torps should be large, most frigates and cruisers should not have a problem avoiding a torp unless to close(and if really in close torp should not be manuverable enough to get them).
when u fire torps in real world u spread them across the target all have a slightly differnt aim point. that would cure the exploding other torps problem.
1 torpedo should take a frigate out(if it hits)
3 for a cruiser(if they hit, badly damaged for tuff cruisers)
minimum of 4 for a bs upto 8 for a hard one.
but remember these should be avoidable.

bs dont run around on their own they have support ships,indys to reload ,anti missle frigates and cruisers for defense.

bs not the be all and end all.

cruise missles should be about 60% damage compared to torp but be abel to go faster than a cruiser (afterburners might get u away if moving and not towards missle).

bs should mount BIG missles longer range, higher speed bigger damage etc(they have the room) two stage missles? fast boost phase dropping a cruise front end nr target etc as mentioned before laser head missles.

rotary launchers? fire say 6 quick and a minute reload time.

missles should have a longer accurate range than guns because they have powered transit time.(dont forget the further away a missle the easier to avoid).
perhaps be abel to salvo missles in pattern to an area?

what about stealth missles? dont do as much damage as cruise as fast as a torp and as manuverable but almost undetectable(single shot dedicated launcher).

ew missles with long run times to spoof sensors into thinking u have an extra frigate/cruiser/battleship etc
ew jammer missles bugger up the sensors
shield jammer missle of varying effectiveness.
anti missle decoys stationed around ship to suck in incoming missles.

could have quite a few new skills, a lot of these should be offshoots of cruise missle skill. decoys and jammers definatly.

any of these any good?

dalman
TunDraGon
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2003.09.03 14:38:00 - [159]
 

Quote:
Edited by: TomB on 03/09/2003 08:04:25
Relax you dieman, the speed bonus for cruise missiles will probably get changed back, there was problem with launched items not getting damage bonus and there for it was given speed bonus for testing purposes, it was never suposed to go as information to players on Chaos.

Flaming changes that are not meant to go live without more tuning/testing for another week atleast can only cause changes not to happen at all.


Ok, thanks. I really apologize for my outburst. Sorry for that, I understand that it's difficult to add the damage bonus to launched items(and that's the reason why it's still not changed, since it's a long time since I posted my bug report about that). However, when this change was posted in the "patch news" for 1192, I thought you had given up on trying to fix it and really changed it to a speed bonus. I'm much more happy nowWink

But I still want to be sure that when tweaking missiles, you are fully aware that missiles disable the use of drones. (quote from other thread about lvl 5 skills):
Quote:
Quote:
Drones and Missile Operations. Gunnery is a work in progress.

Cruise Missiles and Heavy Combat Drone swarms... Yummy Twisted Evil

1. Launch drones.
2. Drones attack the target.
3. Launch missiles
4. Drones go boom! Very Happy


If I had spent my skills on drones instead of missiles, I'd be able to launch 9 drones on my target. Since I want to stay to my "race" and use caldari ships, I have to use missiles, and this makes it impossible to use drones.

qrac
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2003.09.03 15:04:00 - [160]
 

shoudln't cruise missiles be the best antiship missiles and torpedos be used against stationary targets like stations, sentry guns etc?

Ulstan
Posted - 2003.09.03 16:10:00 - [161]
 

Torpedos should be used against targets that are mostly stationary. (webbed bships would apply) and be high damage.

Cruise missiles should be the heaviest damaging guided missiles

Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.09.03 16:26:00 - [162]
 

Quote:
But I still want to be sure that when tweaking missiles, you are fully aware that missiles disable the use of drones. (quote from other thread about lvl 5 skills):
Quote:
Quote:
Drones and Missile Operations. Gunnery is a work in progress.

Cruise Missiles and Heavy Combat Drone swarms... Yummy Twisted Evil

1. Launch drones.
2. Drones attack the target.
3. Launch missiles
4. Drones go boom! Very Happy


If I had spent my skills on drones instead of missiles, I'd be able to launch 9 drones on my target. Since I want to stay to my "race" and use caldari ships, I have to use missiles, and this makes it impossible to use drones.


Hey! That's me! I never went back and saw that reply Evil or Very Mad.

I'm Minmatar and fly Minmatar ships (cept for the Thorax for mining). Part of that advantage is being able to use both drones and missiles. The slight disadvantage is not being able to use both at the same time. Razz.

But then again, using drones effectively also means being able to recall and deploy them quickly. With missiles getting a boost, I'm hoping it improves my ships' alpha strike capabilities. It's a cinch to launch missiles first, then drones to keep their shields hurting (mmm...Praetor Drones). And recalling them for missile use, while annoying, is doable.

dalman
TunDraGon
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2003.09.03 16:37:00 - [163]
 

hehe, yea, it can be done, but takes "too" much effortWink

Mynobe Soletae
Posted - 2003.09.03 21:29:00 - [164]
 

Edited by: Mynobe Soletae on 03/09/2003 21:31:35
Why not give missiles a niche as longest range weapon systems? RL, they have the longest range of all weapons available, and even in SciFi they're long range weapons.

I realize that long range doesn't really matter with the current warp-in game mechanics, but perhaps in the future those will change.

Another cool idea may be real cruise missiles: you send a scout to lock the enemy and paint them with a special targetting module, and your fleet launches cruises and torpedoes, which all warp to the scout and then lock on and attack the target painted by the special modules he's using.

Limited by gang size, I guess. Scout would have to be in a gang with the missile boats.

May give frigates something to do (function as scouts).

Paul Dubois
Posted - 2003.09.03 21:39:00 - [165]
 

Agree torps should have bad agility and really only effective against battleship, but would also like to ensure that cruise missiles are pretty damn useless against fast frigates. Noone at the moment would think of using them against player frigates cos of the cost but with the cost coming down that might change. If theyre too agile and can catch frigates I can imagine the picture, 12 frigates warping in to a battle, battleship fires one salve of six cruise, say goodbye to first 6, fires second salve, say goodbye to all of em, and all before the poor frigates have a chance to even get in range :-).

Not that people use frigates in battles right now, but I think a mix of ships in battles was kinda intended originally, and I just like the idea of all three ship classes retaining some use rather than frigates and cruisers just being considered expendable newbie ships.

Jarjar
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2003.09.03 22:15:00 - [166]
 

Edited by: Jarjar on 03/09/2003 22:17:37
I didn't read the entire thread again, but I do agree that torpedos need another agility nerf (I suppose the speed won't be lowered all the way to 300 again?). After doing some testing, "we" could never get an agile frigate to avoid a torpedo.
I'd like to see it something like...
Rockets/Light = don't know really
Heavy = The average cruiser missile (compare to medium guns). Pretty fast, the good old 800m/s seems well. Actually I think the old ones are nice.
Cruise = THE missile to use for "heavy" cruisers / battleships vs. moving targets such as cruisers/battleships. It needs to be worth the skill training time, so maybe a boost in speed (it's slower than heavies, remember), how about 800-850m/s?
I think the cruise missiles should be the upgrade from heavies, unlike torpedos.
Torpedos = Baad agility, decent speed (500m/s). Should always hit a battleship moving at ~150m/s, but never an agile frigate/MWD-equipped semi-agile cruiser.

Please note:
1) I didn't really think this through before writing it down.
2) I'm "tweaking" the TQ missiles, since nobody knows about how the chaos, i.e. new ones will get changed. Therefore I consider torpedos flying at 500m/s a boost, not a massive (1/4) nerf.

Edit: By the way, just how much cheaper are they?
I suppose a batch of 10 costs more than a batch of 1 did before? Otherwise it might be a bit too cheap IMHO.

Hummus
Caldari
Knights of Unity
Posted - 2003.09.03 22:22:00 - [167]
 

I didn't read through the whole thread, but I can confirm the opinion that F.O.F Missiles are total junk.

I was hunting NPC pirates last night and 4 out of 5 of the F.O.F missiles would target the closest spawn container instead of the pirate I was engaging, even if that meant doing a 180 degree turn and hit the container behind me.

Two of them came around and hit a container within splash range and I did my damage to my own shields Rolling Eyes I came up on my own thread display, LOL!

Me being my own worst enemy in-game and out is a totally different thread though...

Ana Khouri
Caldari
Doomheim
Posted - 2003.09.04 02:36:00 - [168]
 

@Hummus:

Where? Tranq or chaos? If you used them on chaos, sorry for my bickering, if you used them on tranq: please ONLY post your experiences on chaos in these threads, since the changes are happening there. Posting tranq experiences here only leads to false opinions and confusion.

xeno calligan
Posted - 2003.09.04 03:39:00 - [169]
 

One thing I would very much like to see changed, is the fact that getting hit by a missile causes the ship to spin a ridiculous amount (which doesn't even seem to be affected by missile type). This makes it next to impossible to allign for warp when getting spammed by missiles and I think it's wrong that spamming e.g. rockets should have the same effect as a warp scrambler. Where's the moment of inertia on those giant battleships?? Neutral

Laarz Kaledon
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2003.09.04 03:52:00 - [170]
 

Quote:
Quote:
Read the post if you like, but its a terrible idea. Dont bother changing any of the bays, just modify the missile volumes down a shade so the caldari ships have the room to carry enough reloads.


Why do caldari ships, which rely heavily on missles, have the lowest cargo capacity? Fair to field that one sir?


LOL, that'd be like gallente ships not being able to hold enough drones due to low drone bay space. Doesn't make much sense... Looks good so far on the fixes...

rojtat
Posted - 2003.09.04 08:37:00 - [171]
 

excuse me if this dont make sense but where are the missle magazines. u dont put missles in a cargo hold on a warship!. damage control alone would need a seperate space for them.
most caldari ships dont have drone space, but are missle heavy, i think that they should have a missle magazine because they dont have drone space.
nobody puts a missle ship together without space for the missles, its like putting guns on but no space for ammunition.
as caldari are specific missle users they would cater for that(or would have been wiped out as a race for stupid design ships).

any thought people?

Nerhtal Al'Thali
Caldari
Nisroc Angels
The Obsidian Front
Posted - 2003.09.04 10:18:00 - [172]
 

Missile Bay
Drone Bay
Cargo Bay

Well it might make sense but i dont find current situations too bad for how things work.

The kestrel has a very good cargo bay for example so caldari arent the worst for that. Moas 250 is a bit low but livable.

Rising Sin
GoonFleet
Posted - 2003.09.04 12:18:00 - [173]
 

Missiles and ammo are down to manageable size on Chaos right now. Though I admit it'd be neat to see an ammo/missile bay, I don't think it's a high priority.

Replicant Amara
Posted - 2003.09.04 12:56:00 - [174]
 

Edited by: Replicant Amara on 04/09/2003 13:08:33
Oh this is so anoying... I have been trying to get some valuable info in this forums and the only thing I read, is a bunch of people trying to explain their wet dreams about how thing should work with out any hard data... my recomendation to make thing more efficient...

Post the changeges of missiles with quantitative data and give options to see how you think is more balance, and then leave a space to give flexibility for a note so people can make comments or sugestions but please limit their talking cause is so anoying to try to get info and just get useless comments...
(e.g.)
Damage Speed Agi/Time
option 1:Torpedos 600 500 m/s -5/60
Cruise 450 800 m/s -3.5/45
Heavy 250 1000 m/s -2/30
Light 100 1200 m/s -1.2/20
rockets 50 1500 m/s -0.5/10

Comments: The arc of return of the higher missiles shoulds be bigger and related to their agility so you can try to evade them with a fast ship.

Ana Khouri
Caldari
Doomheim
Posted - 2003.09.04 13:07:00 - [175]
 

Actually this thread is mainly for discussion of the changes and not for info about them.

Copying your EVE directory and using it to access chaos is easy enough - do it.

Replicant Amara
Posted - 2003.09.04 13:16:00 - [176]
 

Edited by: Replicant Amara on 04/09/2003 13:19:43
Well discussions should have some guidance if not they are not very effective to get quality information and try to get to a balance point... Cause I can start discussion the in the movie the space bulb... the missiles were super nice and they are super tech, and they blow the titans but only the super ships carry them... and the rockets where manual guided like little ships... and keep going and going and going... Unless this forum is just to express my feelings toward missiles and make my thought been herd.... for that I go to my terapist..

Eilora Wingshy
Minmatar
Solar Wind
Posted - 2003.09.04 13:24:00 - [177]
 

Then I suggest go to your therapist, 'cuase that's what the thread is here for as Ana said, to let ppl let others know of their ideas and thoughts on how the missiles should be. Which is more often than not related to the actual performance right now.

Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.09.04 13:28:00 - [178]
 

Quote:
One thing I would very much like to see changed, is the fact that getting hit by a missile causes the ship to spin a ridiculous amount (which doesn't even seem to be affected by missile type). This makes it next to impossible to allign for warp when getting spammed by missiles and I think it's wrong that spamming e.g. rockets should have the same effect as a warp scrambler. Where's the moment of inertia on those giant battleships?? Neutral


That's an advantage

Replicant Amara
Posted - 2003.09.04 13:29:00 - [179]
 

Then My idea is that cruise missiles should be pink, torpedoes purple, and barney should be the countermeasure for them...
Sorry to be like this , but I just wanted to make this discussion about "how to balance things" more efficient since I read a lot of comments very similar to what I just wrote... and I think will be easier for the devs to get some shape on this discussion...

And I don't go to thrapist they are to expensive so I guess I will use this forums like many people is doing...

Lijah Reaper
Caldari
Posted - 2003.09.04 13:51:00 - [180]
 

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=23069

Missile HP decreased, now large smartbombs or defender missiles should have a chance to take out any missile type.

Though shield hardeners are nerfed, shield boosters have been, well, boosted a bit. Armor repairers have also been improved.

Now if we could get more powerful shield and cap tranfer arrays...



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