open All Channels
seplocked Ships and Modules
blankseplocked Missile + Launcher changes on Chaos
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7

Author Topic

Jim Raynor
Caldari
Bad Kitty Inc.
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2003.08.29 09:04:00 - [31]
 

Quote:
Read the post if you like, but its a terrible idea. Dont bother changing any of the bays, just modify the missile volumes down a shade so the caldari ships have the room to carry enough reloads.


Why do caldari ships, which rely heavily on missles, have the lowest cargo capacity? Fair to field that one sir?

Coromandel
Caldari
Binary Star
Posted - 2003.08.29 09:27:00 - [32]
 

A little of topic but seeing as this is a missiles thread I just wanted to add an idea that came to me.

How about adding some EW style missiles, say a stasis missile and a warp scramble missile. They could have very high usage costs i.e. cruise or torp syle requirments and maybe apply thier effect for 20 seconds or so (and not use blast area to affect multiple targets, just the one they actually strike)

just an idea I had to make missiles a little more diverse.


xeno calligan
Posted - 2003.08.29 09:50:00 - [33]
 

Currently there's also a problem regarding the launchers sizes. Atm we only have figate and cruiser sized launchers this makes the caracal almost as good as the raven(!) -- 5 launchers versus 6. I would suggest to differentiate cruisers and battleships by launcher speed. This is IMO best done by introducing new battleship launchers (and by adjusting cpu/grid on missile bs to accomodate the changes). Alternatively by have a multiplier for launcher speed based on class; Frigate=1, Cruiser=0.5, Battleship=0.25 (launching delay).

With these changes, cruisers could still carry large missiles, but with a significantly lower launcher speed. Thus crusers would be more of a hit-and-run class of missile ships.

ArrowI'm really looking forward to the missile changes Cool

Ishtari
Posted - 2003.08.29 10:37:00 - [34]
 

Xeno BS class launchers are on chaos in the fight club to be tested. Huge capacity but slow reload. Missiles/launchers still need a lot of balancing buut it s going the right way.

Raven DeBlade
Caldari
The Leather Knights
Aegis Militia
Posted - 2003.08.29 10:53:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Raven DeBlade on 29/08/2003 11:01:10
Sorry to say but lowering the Siege Launchers to 1099 doesnt help much, first Raven have only 10000 powercore, so you cant fit anything on it anyway, and also CPU isnt even remotely adequate, i could fit 3x Siege and 2x 425 hybrids, the med slots had hardeners and boosters as usual. i have 3 slots left and i really dont like to continue using Cruiser weapons/Modules on a Battleship The Raven needs atleast 2000 more core. Well all battleships will need alot more power if they should be able to use all the Large stuff out there. I For one think its strange to have to put on alot of Cruiser modules, and as it is now there is mostly Medium sized modules and when all those are fitted the CPU and Power rarely is adequate. How will it be when you really release Large Modules?

Jim Raynor
Caldari
Bad Kitty Inc.
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2003.08.29 11:12:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Jim Raynor on 29/08/2003 11:21:46
Quote:
Edited by: Raven DeBlade on 29/08/2003 11:01:10
Sorry to say but lowering the Siege Launchers to 1099 doesnt help much, first Raven have only 10000 powercore, so you cant fit anything on it anyway, and also CPU isnt even remotely adequate, i could fit 3x Siege and 2x 425 hybrids, the med slots had hardeners and boosters as usual. i have 3 slots left and i really dont like to continue using Cruiser weapons/Modules on a Battleship The Raven needs atleast 2000 more core. Well all battleships will need alot more power if they should be able to use all the Large stuff out there. I For one think its strange to have to put on alot of Cruiser modules, and as it is now there is mostly Medium sized modules and when all those are fitted the CPU and Power rarely is adequate. How will it be when you really release Large Modules?


Well you aren't taking engineering skill into account, at all. It wouldn't be hard to use 6 seige launchers and perhaps two Dual 250mm Railguns (which really aren't bad now), or some type of hybrid blasters.

If you have a caldari ship you should probably get engineering 5. You need to squeeze every drop of power you can get out of the scorpion and raven, imo.

Also that extra low slot on the Raven can easily be used for a RCU or PDS.

I'll agree that for a hybrid range bonus, caldari get screwed. 425mm rails are very difficult to put on caldari ships in any number over two. You might as well use blasters on caldari ships, and the range bonus really does next to nothing for those types of turrets..

Valeria
Caldari
The Spang
Posted - 2003.08.29 11:57:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Valeria on 29/08/2003 12:02:53
Damage also needs to be increased. We're talking about a 10 m3 warhead here, that's some serious stuff. A Tachyon Beam or Neutron Blaster shouldn't outdamage them.

Back when all cruisers had 250 of everything, shield, armor, powergrid, whatever... Torpedos did 400 damage. Now when cruisers have 4 times more HP and Battleships 4 times more again, they should be doing atleast 600. I mean, they cost about 50k to make and there's ways to completely defend against them.

Oh yeah, with 6 Siege launchers on the Raven there's not much CPU left for anything else.

dalman
TunDraGon
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2003.08.29 12:06:00 - [38]
 

CRUISE MISSILE SKILL STILL DOESN'T WORK

In patch 88
They still only do 300 damage, not 360.

But the speed boost is very good.

Kimi
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2003.08.29 12:52:00 - [39]
 

Well, to put it bluntly, missiles still suck, which means that so do any of the Caldari ship specialized for missiles.

The speed increase is only a mild improvement. They get there faster, but they still do the same pathetic damage, still take up way too much room, and still cost way too much for the amount of damage that they do.

I did a test run on Chaos with a Caracal vs a Pirate spawn at Yoma (mostly 6 x 20k pirates and 2x 30k pirates).
At the end of ONE spawn, I was down to less than 10% of all my missiles left. I had used up all those in my launchers and nearly all of those in my cargo. And used up nearly 2 million ISK of missiles.
I have done this same spawn on TQ with only slightly worse results with the unpatched missiles.

And why do some cruise missiles still only have 160 damage?

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2003.08.29 13:01:00 - [40]
 

"And why do some cruise missiles still only have 160 damage?"

... Natural shield resistance against some missile types, mayhaps?..

Parallax Error
Amarr
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2003.08.29 13:19:00 - [41]
 

Are we still going to see larger sized (cruiser fitting and then battleship fitting) launchers with high firing rates, aimed at spamming rockets and light missiles?

I think there is still a need for the larger ships to be able to fire off a good amount of the smaller warheads as a backup to the main striking power of the cruise and torpedo warheads.

The Wretch
Cyberdyne Systems
Posted - 2003.08.29 13:29:00 - [42]
 

All this talk about missles and improvements are heading in the right direction.

But how about making them a bit more tactical? Such as if you are flying at 6000 m/s and launch a missle, it starts out at that speed and decelerates to its maximum speed.

And what about defender missles? The are still "broken" and will need to rise to the new improvements on the missles.


Triniton
Minmatar
Zombie Inc.
Posted - 2003.08.29 13:49:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: Triniton on 29/08/2003 13:51:38
Edited by: Triniton on 29/08/2003 13:50:13
I use and make missle´s and atm it´s just not worth it. I mean cruise-missle´s cost about 5000-10000isk atleast in mineral cost and if I get into a fight and lets say fire 10 missle´s thats 100k right there! and dont get me started on torpedos ! :]

Rich mans weapon.

Ulstan
Posted - 2003.08.29 14:00:00 - [44]
 

"BTW, TomB. Cruise Missile Skill is not giving the bonus to Cruise Missile Damage as noted in the text."

Just thought that was worth repeating.

Missiles need to travel very fast (the speed increase on Chaos is a step in the right direction at least) and they need to NOT blow each other up when they land.

And they just need to be less expensive to make. I cry whenever I have to make a load of cruise missiles :D So many minerals going down the drain! Sure they need to be expensive to make, much more so than turret ammo, but when you are shooting 1-2 million in missiles just to kill one pirate cruiser spawn...

And shooting missiles at someone using shield hardners is just ... well ...

Missiles are supposed to be an expensive weapon that is worth the money you pay for it. It's supposed to be a *viable* alternative weapon system. Naturally since its' so damn expensive no one is going to use it for PvE, but it could at least be useful for PvP :)

One possibility Missiles should somehow ignore the resists granted by shield hardeners, or make them ignore half of the resists granted by hardenrs, or whatever.

The point is, if you launch a salvo of cruise missiles costing hundreds of thousands of isk to make at the enemy, and they finally get to the enemy after slowly travelling through the space in between, and actually hit the enemy, not each other, not defender missiles, not smartbomb pulses - well they should actually HIT for a decent amount. :)

Ulstan
Posted - 2003.08.29 14:02:00 - [45]
 

Triniton - the missiles cost way more than that :D

I was making some yesterday (from a blueprint with 232 mineral efficiency) and the cost in noxcium alone was over 5,000.

Then there is the mexallon, isogen, pyerite, and tritanium.

And that's all for just one missile :D

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2003.08.29 14:53:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: j0sephine on 29/08/2003 14:54:36

Mhmm the prices can be quite different depending on missile type. With the blueprint copies i have the material cost range between 8k per devastator missile to 16k per paradise which seems most expensive... not that i bother with production anymore. The market prices are so low, i'd rather pay that 1k per missile extra than waste time collecting all the minerals, setting production, pay factory fee etc... :s

nono
Posted - 2003.08.29 16:00:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: nono on 29/08/2003 16:03:30
Quote:
Triniton - the missiles cost way more than that :D

I was making some yesterday (from a blueprint with 232 mineral efficiency) and the cost in noxcium alone was over 5,000.

Then there is the mexallon, isogen, pyerite, and tritanium.

And that's all for just one missile :D


232 mineral efficiency? What the hell for?
20 or less would give you the same.

I never did understand why people bother to research past the point of saving the last unit of waste. Waste is all that is saved, nothing comes of the unwasted amount needed.

Unless of course you want to eliminate the huge expense of that last unit of trit.

Ship Bp's maybe but any form of ammo is a total waste of time after a dozen times in a research slot.

Sorry not the place for this discussion.

The Major
Caldari
StateCorp
The State
Posted - 2003.08.29 16:15:00 - [48]
 

Missiles should detonate each other when they explode, it's logical, it's how they work. It stops them being like turrets.

Using missiles is a tactical thing and far more suited to PvP than PvE having Six missile launchers ona ship means you fit a tactical spread of missiles rather than stuff em with torpedoes. Another classic example of the Eve player base thinking bigger=better and failing to engage their brains. With six launchers (not all of them need be heavies) you have the room to carry a couple of torpedoes to nuke station defenecs/battleships, heavy missiles to take down cruisers and a set of small missiles for anti-frigate/drone duty. Probably with enough room left over to keep an A3 on Defender duty (Yes they may not work properly at the moment but they will eventually so don't be a smart arse about it).

Then there are putting down impromptu mine fields when retreating.

Just because you have six launcher slots does not mean the best plan is to fill them with the biggest missile type and attempt the impossible task of timing a six issile salvo so they don't detonate each other. The advantage they give you is in their fire and forget nature. You can launch a salvo of one type at a battleship then switch focus over to launching a salvo at his cruiser backup. Then go back and launch another salvo at the battleship.

Dedicated missile boats are hard hitting suport weapons designed for dealing out hefty damage as part of a larger battlegroup. It's simply impractical to try and solo with just missiles as that isn't their purpose.

Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.08.29 16:36:00 - [49]
 

Quote:
"As for missle splash couldn't test it, only had one launcher on the megathron :("

... I tested it yesterday; got deliberately close to a dummy Dominix used as practice target for the cruise missiles, i think. Took maybe 2-3 missiles exploding nearby to get me in the pod. A Heron frigate which was too close as well went down after one explosion, maybe two.

So yeah, it works. :s

Jash, i haven't felt suicidal enough yet to get with a frigate against the NPC cruisers but will try today if i don't forget. =)


You can go play with Impalers. They use light missiles and mimmick using A-3 launchers. Do expect to be in a pod though in groups greater than 3, if you're in a frigate Twisted Evil

The Wretch
Cyberdyne Systems
Posted - 2003.08.29 17:18:00 - [50]
 

The Major -

Think in terms of dps and cost. You would realize how horribly wrong you are.


QBall
Caldari
Xtreme Intruders
Posted - 2003.08.29 17:21:00 - [51]
 

TomB,

I did alot more testing with missles on Chaos, could only use caracal because chaos copy is old so no raven there.

Missles are still blowing up on the caracal so I image it will be even worse on the raven because its alot bigger.

Missles are still blowing up from splash of other missles. I don't think that is indended so thats why im saying it here.

But missles are diffinitally going the right direction.

Kimi
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2003.08.29 17:33:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Kimi on 29/08/2003 17:37:46
"Missiles should detonate each other when they explode.."

That is not the problem, as has been stated several times.

The problem is that one missile sets off another missile just by proximity. The missiles are too stoopid to realize that it is not supposed to blow up its' fellow missile.

"you have the room to carry a couple of torpedoes to nuke station defenecs/battleships, heavy missiles to take down cruisers.."

Major, what you do not seem to realize is that it takes a LOT more than "a couple" to nuke anything of any size. On Chaos I fired over 32 cruise missiles at ONE battleship, and it was still at 30%+. At a max damage of 300 (many cruise missiles are far less), it can take a full launcher + cargo hold of missiles to do significant damage.

Ulstan
Posted - 2003.08.29 18:05:00 - [53]
 

"Missiles should detonate each other when they explode, it's logical, it's how they work. It stops them being like turrets."

It does stop them from being as useful as turrets, I'll give you that.

However, missiles need to either (a) not blow each other up when they hit their target or (b) not blow each other up just by being nearby.

Right now, they blow up when they are too close. We are told we have to waste valuable DPS by staggering the launcher fire. But then one missile may well blow up the missile behind it when it hits its target.

"Using missiles is a tactical thing and far more suited to PvP than PvE"

Right now it's not suited to anything at all. It *should* be suited to PvP though. Missiles will never be very useful in PvE because they are too expensive.

"having Six missile launchers ona ship means you fit a tactical spread of missiles rather than stuff em with torpedoes. Another classic example of the Eve player base thinking bigger=better and failing to engage their brains."

Except for the fact that, currently, bigger DOES equal better. We're trying to get that changed so that Missiles are actually good tactical weapon.

"With six launchers (not all of them need be heavies) you have the room to carry a couple of torpedoes to nuke station defenecs/battleships,"

Why use torpedoes to nuke station defences when turrets will do more damage, faster, with less cost?

"heavy missiles to take down cruisers"

Why use heavy missiles to take down crusiers when turrets will do more damage, and faster, and with less cost?

"and a set of small missiles for anti-frigate/drone duty."

Why use light misiles to take down frigates when your turrets will do more damage, fater, and with less cost? My 150 railgun hits harder than light missiles do.

"Then there are putting down impromptu mine fields when retreating."

Mines are a complete joke. Maybe if they did 300 damage each they might be worth something. But even then you'd need to run into like 10 of them. But 30 damage each? That's not going to kill *anything*.

"Just because you have six launcher slots does not mean the best plan is to fill them with the biggest missile type and attempt the impossible task of timing a six issile salvo so they don't detonate each other. The advantage they give you is in their fire and forget nature."

What the hell? TURRETS are fire and forget. You hit the key, the turret starts shooting. End. Finis. You don't need to stagger turrets. You don't need to watch and make sure your opponent doesn't place a physical obstruction between your turrets and himself. You don't need to make sure the opponent isn't simply destroying all your turret shots with defender missiles or smartbombs. You don't need to make sure your missiles are fired far enough apart that they don't blow each other up instead of you.

Missiles are the ULTIMATE in weapons that must be carefully babied along to be of any value.

"Dedicated missile boats are hard hitting suport weapons designed for dealing out hefty damage as part of a larger battlegroup. It's simply impractical to try and solo with just missiles as that isn't their purpose."

That is not the issue. The issue is, currently, turrets are more damaging than missiles. Thus, your dedicated missile boat is bringing less firepower than would a dedicated gunboat.

Ships designed around missiles (*all* caldari ships) are thus at a disadvantage. Are you trying to tell me no caldari ships are supposed to be able to solo?

And if there is *one* weapon configuration that should give you a certainity of taking down a solo enemy, it's missiles. They cost the most, and take the most space. You can really only even CARRY enough missiles to use against one opponent.

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2003.08.29 18:40:00 - [54]
 

"You can go play with Impalers. They use light missiles and mimmick using A-3 launchers. Do expect to be in a pod though in groups greater than 3, if you're in a frigate Twisted Evil"

Mhmm was trying to find some missile shooting cruisers in the belts, but there's only 20k Serpentis Chief Protectors (?) in pf-346, with occasional Serpentis Soldier escorts... Soldiers are dumb and can be picked off from 25k (if i get too close 5 of them can fry me in few seconds though... nice tracking on their turrets)

... But the 20k cruisers are sweet =) They don't fire missiles and are so bad at shooting i can easily take at 3 of them at the time and blow them up one by one, with barely a scratch. I guess maneuvering within 1k at 900+ m/s might have something to do with it. ;s

SS Vegito
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2003.08.29 19:54:00 - [55]
 

Whoever said missiles should ignore/partially ignore shield hardeners has the right idea.At least to me.

Id say make the torp hit for 400 no matter what.

Missiles are expensive.Have a slow rate of fire.And can be shot down before they hit.

So in the time you get 1 torp to hit a gun could have hit that ship what 6-10 times?

That torp should do a similar amount of damage over the time as the gun.

Triniton
Minmatar
Zombie Inc.
Posted - 2003.08.29 20:50:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: Triniton on 29/08/2003 20:55:20
BLAH! the missle´s suck! make some BS missle´s i mean what guy would use launcher´s unless to fill up the emty high slot´s on his BS, i mean a large gun hits at 200+ (wrecking 600-800 maby more) and guns have better rate of fire AND the ammo is ALOT cheaper! pfff Evil or Very Mad

Rising Sin
GoonFleet
Posted - 2003.08.29 21:02:00 - [57]
 

TomB: here are my thoughts.

- All missiles need to have at least 10% more damage base than they do to give them a clear advantage over other weapon types (especially if they take so much cargo space)

- You need to work on missile collision a bit. In the latest patch, my own missiles still seem to collide with each other occasionally.

- You need to get defenders to work better before you release these new missile changes to Tranquility so that people have a defense against these monsters. Right now, defender missiles clearly work less than 50% of the time. On top of that, they look kind of stupid, zigging and zagging around my own ship. Maybe they should leave the area around our ships and actively search out incoming missiles and take them out?

Good job so far, though; missiles are far more effective than they were before.

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2003.08.29 21:13:00 - [58]
 

"Right now, defender missiles clearly work less than 50% of the time."

... Currently the defenders seem to be the best at hitting your own ship; not that it's anything new, but still disturbing to put it mildly. :s

Eilora Wingshy
Minmatar
Solar Wind
Posted - 2003.08.29 21:45:00 - [59]
 

Here's another matter on the missile thingy, ever thought of the 'push'? If you take a BS weighing, oh, couple of thousand tons. And then you take a missile. Then you have the missile detonate next to the BS. Here comes the fun part, you'r battleship is thrown 200-300m of course.

My point is that they do way to much push imho. Now if they did dmg enough to motivate that push.. but as they are, doing like 10% shield dmg, and then flinging the ship around like a glove. It's a bit silly really.

Triniton
Minmatar
Zombie Inc.
Posted - 2003.08.29 21:57:00 - [60]
 

good point, even heavy missles slap your BS around like a frigate or sumthing. Rolling Eyes


Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only