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TomB

Posted - 2003.08.28 17:34:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: TomB on 03/09/2003 11:40:04
These changes are not we intend for missiles, the problem lies in agility and the mass where as heavy and slow moving items turn to quickly when speed is low. These tunes are here for now to make them more useable, prices and damage will perhabs also get some tuning for them. Test them and comment:

* Heavy Launcher speed increased from 18 secs to 16 secs
* Siege Launcher speed increased from 24 secs to 16 secs
* Siege Launcher power need

Torpedos: 2000 max velocity, very bad agility agility
Cruise: 1750 max velocity, bad agility
Heavy: 1250 max velocity, la la agility
Light: 1000 max velocity, good agility
Rockets: 1000 max velocity, super agility

Edit to gather info from thread:

- Mineral requirement for manufacturing missiles lowered alot, much cheaper now
- All missiles are manufactured in stack of 10 now
- FOF missiles also tuned to current state
- HP of missiles lowered across the board so that it will be easier to tackle these fast missiles
- Defenders don't explode now when running out of time, they simply get removed

TODO:

- Slow torpedos down, possibily make them do more damage
- Fix where defenders orbit your ship rather than going for incoming missiles

Ulstan
Posted - 2003.08.28 17:46:00 - [2]
 

When you say 'not what we intend' you mean, not all you intend to do in regards to missiles?

This looks like a good start :)

But bear in mind that the only high damage missiles have bad agility.

I don't know if you want to include high damage, short range, good agility missiles, or if it is a design decision to have all high damage missiles long range and low agility, but it might bear looking into.


TomB

Posted - 2003.08.28 17:55:00 - [3]
 

At closer range, missiles with high damage would be dealing damage to your own ship. Short range missile with high agility are more considered for taking out either drones or fast moving objects such as frigates.

Faramir.
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2003.08.28 17:59:00 - [4]
 

Currently missiles (heavy missiles and torpedoes in my case) already do damage to my own ship (or at least they explode) just after i launch them from my ship...

Any known reasons? Is this meant to be or is it being worked on?

Oh and i think you meant decreased with the missile launcher r.o.f.'s :)

Valeria
Caldari
The Spang
Posted - 2003.08.28 17:59:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Valeria on 28/08/2003 17:59:46
Great news, though maybe you should twist it around a little. Rockets and Torpedos were once called "unguided" and thought to actually be that by many people, ie, you had to shoot them at a pretty much stationary target to hit. This wasn't true of course, all they had was crappy range and flight time.

But maybe it should be true. Give Rockets very low agility but insane speed, and low flighttime. Meant for fast assault frigates to spew out at close range while flying towards its target... somewhat like a bomber. Then make Torpedos into uber-rockets for long-range combat (very high flighttime) and especially against immobile targets once they come in. Then have Light, Heavy and Cruise be the "guided" kind. Slower but with decent agility, with Heavy and Cruise basically being higher damaging, longer flighttime, slower versions.

Instead of being (Rockets->Light->Heavy->Cruise-Torpedo) it would be (Rockets) - (Torpedo) - (Light->Heavy->Cruise)... 3 unique types of missiles and not just a ladder system.

Confused

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2003.08.28 18:16:00 - [6]
 

"At closer range, missiles with high damage would be dealing damage to your own ship."

... Will something be done about the missiles cancelling one another due to the other missile being close enough to trigger the explosion?.. Or about the missiles being destroyed before reaching the target because with multiple launchers most of the time they're fired frequently enough to put them within impact range of another missile....


"Currently missiles (heavy missiles and torpedoes in my case) already do damage to my own ship (or at least they explode) just after i launch them from my ship...

Any known reasons?"


I think 'tis happens when the speed of your own ship is close to the travelling speed of the missile you launch. Apparently the missile cannot then move far enough fast enough and --being dumb and unable to tell you are not their intended target-- triggers the explosion due to your own proximity. o.O

DREAMWORKS
Gallente
Gangbang-Gang
GUARDS 0F AVALON
Posted - 2003.08.28 18:24:00 - [7]
 

I tested Defender missles on Chaos and they dont go for other missles, they just circle around my ship for the time and then explode. This causes more damage than defence.

Raem Civrie
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2003.08.28 18:55:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Raem Civrie on 28/08/2003 18:57:06
Do missiles caught in the blast radius of another missile evaporate? I've never seemed to notice it, one way or the other

If they do, then I applaud it. That way you have to time your volleys.

Valeria
Caldari
The Spang
Posted - 2003.08.28 19:07:00 - [9]
 

2003.08.28 18:55:40 -----
Your Bane Torpedo I hits Valeria, doing 180.0 splash damage.

Never had that one before... interesting.

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2003.08.28 20:15:00 - [10]
 

"Do missiles caught in the blast radius of another missile evaporate? I've never seemed to notice it, one way or the other"

Yeah; hover some 10-20k above missile cruiser firing heavy missiles at target in distance and watch the missile trails. If the missiles follow one another too closely, when one of them hits then 1-2 right behind it disappear in the blast without any extra explosion or damage.

Also easy to verify when you fire say, 4 missiles fairly quickly and receive reports of damage caused by only one or two of them.


"If they do, then I applaud it. That way you have to time your volleys."

... Good luck trying to time 5 or 6 launchers with autorepeat. (it might work better now that missiles move faster, but before it'd make any extra launcher above 4 obsolete as you couldn't launch more than 4 cruise missiles within 20 secs if you intended all of them to actually hit. Suspect 'tis even worse with torpedoes, given they have bigger splash radius)

Cao Cao
Caldari
S.A.S
Posted - 2003.08.28 20:51:00 - [11]
 

Good start.

Would like to see damage modification perhaps, by and large while missiles should be doing the most damage out of any weapons (light missiles should do more damage than small turrets), overall this does not happen by a long shot. At 50 km, you could annihilate a target with turrets before any missiles (even at these increased velocities) would even have a chance of hitting.

Being a missile fan myself (Raven is muh baby), honestly damage needs to be increased substantially for missiles to be viable at longer ranges, or heck, viable at all. Right now turrets outdamage missiles straight up, not even considering damage over time.

TomB

Posted - 2003.08.28 20:54:00 - [12]
 

The mass for torpedos was incorrect, Chaos has been updated with the true values.

DREAMWORKS
Gallente
Gangbang-Gang
GUARDS 0F AVALON
Posted - 2003.08.28 21:15:00 - [13]
 

Any info on the Defenders yet?

Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.08.28 22:54:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Jash Illian on 28/08/2003 23:00:15
Yummy...Now we're talking. I'll pop over to Chaos later to see how my 3/3 Rupture setup works.

Warning: I Love Cruise missiles already.

BTW, TomB. Cruise Missile Skill is not giving the bonus to Cruise Missile Damage as noted in the text.

PS:
Have you considered chaning the launch locations from fore to port and starboard? One of the things I've noticed when launching missiles is their tendency to screw up increases if the target is behind me..

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2003.08.28 23:46:00 - [15]
 

"Any info on the Defenders yet?"

'Tis just in:

... they still suck. :s

Cruise missiles are v.nice though, and the torps can be really scary o.o

Artean
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2003.08.29 00:50:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Artean on 29/08/2003 00:50:09
How come missiles speeds isnt relative to your ships speed?

Dont know if its been adressed before (wouldnt surprise me if it has), but here is my observation:

If my 20sec test did prove rigth, a heavy missile with a speed of 600 m/s (or so, dont remember the exact figure), fired from a rifter equiped with some afterburners (doing approx. 700 m/s) is flying with a speed of -100 m/s relatively my ship. Seems quite strange; considering Im flying in a constant speed, the missile should have a speed of approx. 1300 m/s. Perhaps its hard to produce code for that (no clue, Im not even close to being a computer programer), but it would sure add to the missile (and gerila) tactics. Specially the heavy and slow ones; the ones that does all the dmg.

If my observation is wrong, I deeply apppologies, and ask you to just ignore this post.

Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.08.29 03:01:00 - [17]
 

Quote:
Edited by: Artean on 29/08/2003 00:50:09
How come missiles speeds isnt relative to your ships speed?

Dont know if its been adressed before (wouldnt surprise me if it has), but here is my observation:

If my 20sec test did prove rigth, a heavy missile with a speed of 600 m/s (or so, dont remember the exact figure), fired from a rifter equiped with some afterburners (doing approx. 700 m/s) is flying with a speed of -100 m/s relatively my ship. Seems quite strange; considering Im flying in a constant speed, the missile should have a speed of approx. 1300 m/s. Perhaps its hard to produce code for that (no clue, Im not even close to being a computer programer), but it would sure add to the missile (and gerila) tactics. Specially the heavy and slow ones; the ones that does all the dmg.

If my observation is wrong, I deeply apppologies, and ask you to just ignore this post.


Simple answer:
Caracal + MWD + Torpedos prior to TomB's improvements = ...?

Digital Sin
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2003.08.29 03:07:00 - [18]
 

true but still, missiles require money and they also require deployment unlike turrets. whereas a raven is a missile boat, an apocalypse is a gunboat, and seven extruded heatsinks with four tachyons and four heavy modulated beams all equipped with multifrequency and optical trackers..... well, things start to hurt. "stacked" launcher speed would be fun.

Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.08.29 03:28:00 - [19]
 

Quote:
true but still, missiles require money and they also require deployment unlike turrets. whereas a raven is a missile boat, an apocalypse is a gunboat, and seven extruded heatsinks with four tachyons and four heavy modulated beams all equipped with multifrequency and optical trackers..... well, things start to hurt. "stacked" launcher speed would be fun.


Yes, I do believe that missile users got a semi short end of the stick on improvements to their capabilities. A low slot module to increase missile launch time would be nice as I'm topped out with Missile Ops V.

Damagewise, if you can deliver them on target cruise missiles are extremely nice. Because even with all the gyros your ship can fit, you can still pull a whiff for a 'barely scratches' even within optimal. But I know whatever the 1st missile lands for, the rest will land for as well.

If these changes work out well, I've got 3 Advanced Limos collecting dust in my hangar (only worth carrying Malkuths atm because of CPU usage vs Waste of Isk for each missile fired).

Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.08.29 03:30:00 - [20]
 

Quote:
"Any info on the Defenders yet?"

'Tis just in:

... they still suck. :s

Cruise missiles are v.nice though, and the torps can be really scary o.o


I'm dling the 1165 image now and can't check this myself...But have you tried fighting a missile npc yet and seen how the changes affect them?

4 Marauders did nasty things to my Rupture earlier on TQ. I'm dreading what the same will do with improved missiles... Surprised

Digital Sin
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2003.08.29 03:36:00 - [21]
 

yes, those missiles reach you fast. :p

i just went against some sanshas ravagers (EMP monkeys) and let me tell you, they can throw you over a barrel and **** if you dont have an EM ward. heavy missiles closed in almost instantly from 20km away, pounding for 150 damage each.

as for misisle deployment modifiers, i think that would be interesting, i would still rather have more "stacked" skillsets. something like advanced missile subsystems that gives an additional 5% to ROF. save low slots for something like damage modifiers (perhaps warhead optimizers for shield penetration? i know i would give up damage boosts if you had missiles that went through shield into armor/hull.)

Jim Raynor
Caldari
Bad Kitty Inc.
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2003.08.29 04:03:00 - [22]
 

I would love to see missles become really powerful. It would be totally awesome if missles were the 4th weapon type, instead of a silly ineffective support weapon, as they currently are.

I'd love to get a Raven or use my Scorpion as a missle platform. I could devote my low slots to power diagnostics or other stuff, other than damage mods.

Turrets + Damage Mod setups get kind of boring. I'd love to see more, effective, variations..

Anyways, missles should be cheaper to build too IMO. That's another crucial step to making them useful.

Darth Maul
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2003.08.29 05:56:00 - [23]
 

Also.. be mindful of making torps TOO good, since cruise missles have such a higher training time required they should be clearly superior..

Jim Raynor
Caldari
Bad Kitty Inc.
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2003.08.29 06:23:00 - [24]
 

Quote:
Also.. be mindful of making torps TOO good, since cruise missles have such a higher training time required they should be clearly superior..


They should be faster than torpedoes, and the fact they have no flight timer, should make them better..

QBall
Caldari
Xtreme Intruders
Posted - 2003.08.29 06:46:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: QBall on 29/08/2003 06:50:08
Edited by: QBall on 29/08/2003 06:48:03
Jim,
Cruisemissle only go so far then explode, so they have some kind of timer.

I did some test, my major complaint's like them running into my ship when fired with a MWD seem fixed, but I'm in a megathron not raven because TQ link is old.

Missle's still seem pretty slow to me, but they are definitally better.

As for missle splash couldn't test it, only had one launcher on the megathron :(

Test neutron's out too, and they ****d tacyons at close ranges under 10km.

Another thing of note, a raven with Bship skill 3 should fire at around 9.1 seconds, will be nice :)

And another think, I believe FoF missles are still junk, havn't been able to test them yet though, but doesn't sound like they did any work on them.

Jim Raynor
Caldari
Bad Kitty Inc.
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2003.08.29 06:53:00 - [26]
 

Quote:
Edited by: QBall on 29/08/2003 06:50:08
Edited by: QBall on 29/08/2003 06:48:03
Jim,
Cruisemissle only go so far then explode, so they have some kind of timer.

I did some test, my major complaint's like them running into my ship when fired with a MWD seem fixed, but I'm in a megathron not raven because TQ link is old.

Missle's still seem pretty slow to me, but they are definitally better.

As for missle splash couldn't test it, only had one launcher on the megathron :(

Test neutron's out too, and they ****d tacyons at close ranges under 10km.

Another thing of note, a raven with Bship skill 3 should fire at around 9.1 seconds, will be nice :)

And another think, I believe FoF missles are still junk, havn't been able to test them yet though, but doesn't sound like they did any work on them.


I know they time out if they have no target. Dunno about their timer though.

QBall
Caldari
Xtreme Intruders
Posted - 2003.08.29 07:08:00 - [27]
 

One of my last Major complain's about missles now is thier sheer size, torps take up 10m3 cruise missle 5m3 and heavys 2.5m3

dont know about the other I dont ever use them.

I would like to say them take up 50% what they do now, maybe even 25% their current usage.

Right now missle's are in the same boat as projectiles, but still a bit worse.

Smaller clip size, still slow refire, but take no cap.

So it has the cons of projectiles, but not the bonus's.

I would like to see missle have something unique unlike other weapons.

What that unique thing is I don't know yet.

Jim Raynor
Caldari
Bad Kitty Inc.
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2003.08.29 07:25:00 - [28]
 

Quote:
One of my last Major complain's about missles now is thier sheer size, torps take up 10m3 cruise missle 5m3 and heavys 2.5m3

dont know about the other I dont ever use them.

I would like to say them take up 50% what they do now, maybe even 25% their current usage.

Right now missle's are in the same boat as projectiles, but still a bit worse.

Smaller clip size, still slow refire, but take no cap.

So it has the cons of projectiles, but not the bonus's.

I would like to see missle have something unique unlike other weapons.

What that unique thing is I don't know yet.


Read my post about changing the drone bay to a weapons bay and allowing missle and ammo storage in it. That would make carrying missles easy, while sacrificing drone space..

A nice trade off, for ships that rely heavily on missles, such as Caldari ships.

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2003.08.29 08:37:00 - [29]
 

"As for missle splash couldn't test it, only had one launcher on the megathron :("

... I tested it yesterday; got deliberately close to a dummy Dominix used as practice target for the cruise missiles, i think. Took maybe 2-3 missiles exploding nearby to get me in the pod. A Heron frigate which was too close as well went down after one explosion, maybe two.

So yeah, it works. :s

Jash, i haven't felt suicidal enough yet to get with a frigate against the NPC cruisers but will try today if i don't forget. =)

NTRabbit
Caldari
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2003.08.29 08:43:00 - [30]
 

Quote:
Quote:
One of my last Major complain's about missles now is thier sheer size, torps take up 10m3 cruise missle 5m3 and heavys 2.5m3

dont know about the other I dont ever use them.

I would like to say them take up 50% what they do now, maybe even 25% their current usage.

Right now missle's are in the same boat as projectiles, but still a bit worse.

Smaller clip size, still slow refire, but take no cap.

So it has the cons of projectiles, but not the bonus's.

I would like to see missle have something unique unlike other weapons.

What that unique thing is I don't know yet.


Read my post about changing the drone bay to a weapons bay and allowing missle and ammo storage in it. That would make carrying missles easy, while sacrificing drone space..

A nice trade off, for ships that rely heavily on missles, such as Caldari ships.

Read the post if you like, but its a terrible idea. Dont bother changing any of the bays, just modify the missile volumes down a shade so the caldari ships have the room to carry enough reloads.


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