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blankseplocked CCP: Why is a Log-on Trap not an Exploit?
 
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nightjackel
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.01.25 06:43:00 - [241]
 

Edited by: nightjackel on 25/01/2006 06:43:45
I disagree by exper. From what I have seen "MOST" large Alliances don't engage UNLESS they have the golden ratio (3-1 odds. Now lets say you have a mining operation going on in one system. You get attacked by a small band of pirates. You would normally call in reinforcements to protect your mining op or atleast get your buddies out of harms way. But if you really dont know how big their force is would you chance it. Normally sending in covert-ops or noob alts to scout near by systems.With out local chat that wouldnt work as well, then again if your good with a scanner it wouldnt matter. The force that attacked you could be a probe to check Your response to an attack. While another plantoon sits in the wings powered down for the go code. And if you read what I said . I said the the biggest blob wouldnt ALWAYS win. The idea would allow more tactic movements of forces. I would really show how smarts can over come numbers.


P.s wasn't trying to hijack your theard. :)

Montague Zooma
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.01.25 06:50:00 - [242]
 

Quote:
You almost have a point with the speech programs. Almost, because unlike the log on tactics these programs enhance what's already possible -- communication. With log on / log off on the other hand you create ability which is not intended as part of game, i.e. being able to sit 100% safe and undetectable in the same system the enemy might be in.


Sorry, but it's a very valid point...you just don't want to acknowledge it because you or your corp use such programs. TS, Ventrilo, etc. don't enhance in game communications, they replace them. At least the login/logoff function is built into the game.

Personally, I don't like the use of such communications programs. I prefer to use what the devs give us...it puts everyone on the same level playing field. But I know it's pointless to protest them, just as it's pointless to speak out against piracy. Which is also why I don't protest the concept of the login trap.

Login traps may be "lame", but there are plenty of people who think mission running and asteroid mining is lame, too. If the game allows it, it's ok...simple as that. Once you accept that premise, you'll be much less stressed over what other players do. Well, it works for me, anyway.

LOL amazing how I wind up defending the position of the kinds of players I do my best to avoid in game.

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.01.25 07:00:00 - [243]
 

"TS, Ventrilo, etc. don't enhance in game communications, they replace them. At least the login/logoff function is built into the game."

You can still communicate with players using regular game chat. In fact, on many ops game chat and voice chat are used together. But on the other hand can you make your ship disappear from scanner, local *and* map through anything but logging out..?

Dukath
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.01.25 07:13:00 - [244]
 

Originally by: Maya Rkell
Originally by: Dukath
Oveur:

What exactly is the reason not to implement persistant ships at the moment. I would agree before the latest content patches but now?


Because they want a 0.0 population.

Period.

Nothing period. Your statement means nothing.
If they wanted a 0.0 population they'd put concord al over the place. I don't assume to talk for them so I cna only discuss what you seem to want or what I want.

You seem to want a large and mostly clueless danger averse population ready for you to gank.
I want a (maybe slightly smaller but more intelligent) 0.0 population that understands the risk of 0.0.
Guess which of the 2 types of population will make eve more interesting? Which of the 2 types will create history like the GNW or the CA vs SA wars? Or which of the 2 populations will petition every loss, never do anything dangerous and simply make 0.0 a boring place.

If you get your way eve will die. If I get my way eve will continue to grow and develop.


Also josephine: i don't think i agree with you. Sure some groups might try and get more people in but groups that rely on that will quickly find out it won't work. So they get half their alliance in a blob and still sit at safe because the other side might have more. The next day only 1/3es will come since nothing ever happens. The next day only 10% ... after that they get completely wasted. Even the most moronic fleet commander will eventually understand that blobbing does not bring safety, it only brings the illusion of safety because of local.

Logon/logoff tactics are one of the most problematic 'exploits' in the game. Not only ingame because they give unfair advantages, make it impossible to control even a single constellation or even a system. But also because in some situations people just need to log off for real life.
Of the other hand the ingame mechanisms already exist so that
everyone can logoff in safety for the price of a single highslot. (at least if they make ships persistant they should also make cloak active if fitted on the ship). players part of an alliance defending space would not even need to fit a cloak since they have POSes all around where they can safely park.

If carriers get fixed (come on, only 1 frig in the ship array?) and/or allow pods to dock (why not? put the ship in the array and dock in your pod, would give another safe place to logoff and allow a carrier to jump ships with pilots).
People were asking for persistancy since beta, and back then there wer acceptable reasons not to do it since it was possible to be stuck 30 jumps from a safe place and cloaks didn't exist. But now? The only reason people don't want this is because in the worst case they would have to use one highslot to fit a cloak. I guess that one mining laser is really important

Terradoct
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.01.25 07:45:00 - [245]
 

To the thread starter post with your main char.
To thous who screaming that RAT was using loging trap to kill LD dread - go get some milk and play lego, this game isn't for you.

To the rest. j0 you are not right, you know it. Tell me how are going to abmush enemy when they run when saw you gang of 10-15 pilots even if they have 50 in local? You can't the only option is to lure them in to the trap,and by doing it you need to hide, how you hide in eve (not by loging). We do not have here bottun "turn off ships systems and go silent" and hide from been shown in local and scanner. If there where such tools in eve that would allow you to make surprise attack on enemy fleet, would -V- cream that they where cheated?

Aeon Yakati
Destructive Influence
KenZoku
Posted - 2006.01.25 08:44:00 - [246]
 

Get it over with dude Wink

You applied a strategy which is even frowned upon by the devs (and everyone else really) and won this fight not by skills or ingame tactics, but by circumventing the game mechanics itself.

KIAEddZ
Caldari
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
Posted - 2006.01.25 08:47:00 - [247]
 

Just Remove Pilots viewable in local in 0.0, then this whole problem dissapears.

But PLEASE at the least condemn such disgraceful actions.

Darcuese
Destructive Influence
KenZoku
Posted - 2006.01.25 09:06:00 - [248]
 

Originally by: KIAEddZ
Just Remove Pilots viewable in local in 0.0, then this whole problem dissapears.

.


Yes. Let the scanner do the job it was made for

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2006.01.25 09:25:00 - [249]
 

Edited by: Avon on 25/01/2006 09:25:55
Shocked

Well, this thread took a turn for the worst, didn't it?

We just got to the point where we had some constructive suggestions, and then the whole thing turned in to a fight about the right and wrongs of the whole thing.

Let me say this:
Log-in traps are, without doubt, the lamest 'tactic' anyone could ever use, and should be universally frowned upon.
Just because the game 'allows' it does not make it legitimate.
Those screaming "we'll do it until it is stopped", step back and look at yourself. You would throw away your dignity, and any respect people may have for you, just for a new entry on a killboard? Shame.

The key to solving this issue is information, not game mechanic limitations, of that I am sure.

Just a parting thought.
Those advocating the removal in local to solve this issue have actually missed the mark somewhat. In this particular case it would not help at all.
I'm not saying the removal of local is not desireable, just that it doesn't apply here. (That is to say people would still log off to avoid detection by a scout, and one player in a cloaked ship would call the log-in when the freighter starts to warp - same situation, just zero warning for the freighter now).

More map data is the way to go, information is power (to those who can be bothered to use it)

Khaldorn Murino
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.01.25 09:31:00 - [250]
 

Originally by: Avon

Log-in traps are, without doubt, the lamest 'tactic' anyone could ever use, and should be universally frowned upon.
Just because the game 'allows' it does not make it legitimate.
Those screaming "we'll do it until it is stopped", step back and look at yourself. You would throw away your dignity, and any respect people may have for you, just for a new entry on a killboard? Shame.


I agree. But the same could be said about alt spies. I think its lame, its far too easy to do, takes no skill, is an exploit of the game it could be argued. Yet everyone uses them. Even the moral high grounders here.

Whats the difference?

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2006.01.25 09:43:00 - [251]
 

Originally by: Khaldorn Murino


I agree. But the same could be said about alt spies. I think its lame, its far too easy to do, takes no skill, is an exploit of the game it could be argued. Yet everyone uses them. Even the moral high grounders here.

Whats the difference?


The existance of other lame tactics does not make this one magically legitimate, does it?

At least alt spies are an exploit of people's trust in-game.

Asnar
Evil Strangers Inc.
Posted - 2006.01.25 09:46:00 - [252]
 

The only advantage of alt spies is that you don't have to pay your spy, without alts, people would be bought, so spying would be more expensive and you possibly would have trouble finding them especially in small corps for instance. So it really doesn't compair at all to this super lame "tactic"

Sanaen Eydanwadh
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2006.01.25 09:59:00 - [253]
 

Originally by: Avon
Those screaming "we'll do it until it is stopped", step back and look at yourself. You would throw away your dignity, and any respect people may have for you, just for a new entry on a killboard? Shame.

I guess that's sumes it up these 9 pages.
"people will scout us and flee so we HAVE to use lame tactics to get a fight" -> either you seriously have to improve your tactics (like a basic: stop trying to always overblob if you want a fight...) (I don't really know RAT, that's just a "general" comment), either your ennemy proves carefull and has good scouts - and deserves to escape if he wants to. But no, 0.0 people just want killmails... and are ready to anything for it. Even to write such pieces of plain idiotic things in forums, like "all is fair in war and in love" which is supposed to make them look sooooo tough...

Originally by: Khaldorn Murino

I agree. But the same could be said about alt spies. I think its lame, its far too easy to do, takes no skill, is an exploit of the game it could be argued. Yet everyone uses them. Even the moral high grounders here.
Whats the difference?

Eyh, not everyone !! Laughing and yes, it's about as lame... Even if it might be described as *slightly* more an in-game mechanism, which sounds as seriously wicked logic to me. But after all, some people can apparently argue that loging traps ARE an in-game feature, so I guess everything is arguable...


Katia G1
Posted - 2006.01.25 10:20:00 - [254]
 

Edited by: Katia G1 on 25/01/2006 10:30:44
On map overview, man can see how many people in system, how many are docked, etc. Wouldn't be possible to add an indicator such as "how many are logged off in space system for the last 3 hours" ?
Hug

Freidr
Posted - 2006.01.25 10:44:00 - [255]
 

Have I any chance to catch dred by another tactic, if its logged off and have a scout in this system?

We haven't time to wait for it 24 hours/7 days.

THIS TACTIC ISN'T EXPLOIT

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2006.01.25 10:48:00 - [256]
 

Edited by: Avon on 25/01/2006 10:49:11
Originally by: Freidr
Have I any chance to catch dred by another tactic, if its logged off and have a scout in this system?

We haven't time to wait for it 24 hours/7 days.

THIS TACTIC ISN'T EXPLOIT


Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
You are going to catch a dread as it warps to a gate......?

And there was me thinking they used jump-drives. Rolling Eyes



Edit: And if you haven't got time to wait, you haven't got what it takes.
Recently BoB had to lock down a system for 30+ hours. (not through downtime, obviously)

Masochist
Insurgent New Eden Tribe
Posted - 2006.01.25 11:37:00 - [257]
 

I lost my dread few days ago cause off a log-on trap.


We were pawning a POS (already in reinforced mode)
The only gate into the system was carefully bubbled up and a fleet was defending it.
Another POS was set up so we had to go on next days.
Now this day a S-E fleet logs on in system.
Warps to POS and kills my moros.
POS + fleet is dead dread and when POS in reinforced you have to kill it off.
So plenty off time to set up a log-on trap.
Means you cant take any POS/territory if enemy has a sizable fleet.

I petitioned but answer was it not considered an exploit.
Cause off log-on exploit NOT existing.
Byebye 2,5 billion + (tobias webber that helped kill frigfleet day before got destructed as well)

P.s.Siege mode prevents you from warping within 2 minutes

Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.01.25 11:48:00 - [258]
 

Well, that dread loss right abiove here was kind of your own fault, unless the enemy fleet warped to your position right after logging in, whoch I doubt somewhat.

If you take risks with dreads, always assume the enemy know what you are doing and will do the smartest thing they can do about it. In this case, sneak in a fleet when your control over the system is gone for a few hours and come back the next day at a time you are unlikely to have a fleet near to defend your dread.

That's not a logontrap, it's a reasonable tactic imo.

However, having a whole group sitting at the login screen waiting for the call that the enemy dread is scrambled or whatever just to log in, jump into the nextdoor system and gank the hell out of it is probably the singlemost lamest form of exploiting people have come up with so far in Eve.

Wether CCP enforce it or not, it remains nothing more then admitting your own inadequacies and lack of skills, and it remains an exploit in my eyes.


BoB have killed 5 dreads and havent needed an exploit to do it. We have lost 2 dreads in a fight we fought outnumbered. We succeed in luring and trapping enemies that do their utmost to avoid any fight that is not an absolutely certain win daily.

Anyone that uses any of these as an argument to validate their use of exploits is simply wrong.

Khaldorn Murino
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.01.25 11:49:00 - [259]
 

Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Khaldorn Murino


I agree. But the same could be said about alt spies. I think its lame, its far too easy to do, takes no skill, is an exploit of the game it could be argued. Yet everyone uses them. Even the moral high grounders here.

Whats the difference?


The existance of other lame tactics does not make this one magically legitimate, does it?

At least alt spies are an exploit of people's trust in-game.


I never said it did. Log in trap is lame, but then I think alt spies are lame too. I just dont see that a great difference between the two. One is accepted and used by a majority of people, and one is not.

Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.01.25 11:53:00 - [260]
 

Originally by: Khaldorn Murino
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Khaldorn Murino


I agree. But the same could be said about alt spies. I think its lame, its far too easy to do, takes no skill, is an exploit of the game it could be argued. Yet everyone uses them. Even the moral high grounders here.

Whats the difference?


The existance of other lame tactics does not make this one magically legitimate, does it?

At least alt spies are an exploit of people's trust in-game.


I never said it did. Log in trap is lame, but then I think alt spies are lame too. I just dont see that a great difference between the two. One is accepted and used by a majority of people, and one is not.


I don't use an alt scout and never have. I don't even have alts that serve no viable function my main cannot do due to being in a different place or lacking relevant skills.

But, there is simply no way to stop people from usng alt scouts. Well, you could remove all alts, something I wouldn't really like since some of mine have actually been trained to have trading skills and stuff like that.

Logging off and on as a tactical manouvre is however something you can solve without breaking the game.

So why not ?

Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.01.25 11:57:00 - [261]
 

If you need to use login traps and Alt spies (especially ones in newbie corps), then you just don't have what it takes.

If people get away from you (by any means other than logging off), you screwed up. Period. They can be got, you just need to be better.

That said, even with the best group and the best tactics in the game, some will get lucky and get away. You get the thrill of the chase, they get the thrill of being chased and getting away (this time). Everyone has fun, the game works. Pat each other on the back and better luck next time.

If you are so crap that you have to resort to "cheating" (it may not be an exploit because it can't be stopped, but its sure as hell cheating the mechanics of the game) in order to get by, the problem lays with YOU. These problems face everyone equally. They can get by, you can't, therefore the whining little b****s are not the people on this thread, its you for not having what it takes to outwit your prey and get the kills.

Masochist
Insurgent New Eden Tribe
Posted - 2006.01.25 11:58:00 - [262]
 

Edited by: Masochist on 25/01/2006 12:02:42
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Well, that dread loss right abiove here was kind of your own fault, unless the enemy fleet warped to your position right after logging in, whoch I doubt somewhat.

If you take risks with dreads, always assume the enemy know what you are doing and will do the smartest thing they can do about it. In this case, sneak in a fleet when your control over the system is gone for a few hours and come back the next day at a time you are unlikely to have a fleet near to defend your dread.

That's not a logontrap, it's a reasonable tactic imo.

However, having a whole group sitting at the login screen waiting for the call that the enemy dread is scrambled or whatever just to log in, jump into the nextdoor system and gank the hell out of it is probably the singlemost lamest form of exploiting people have come up with so far in Eve.

Wether CCP enforce it or not, it remains nothing more then admitting your own inadequacies and lack of skills, and it remains an exploit in my eyes.


BoB have killed 5 dreads and havent needed an exploit to do it. We have lost 2 dreads in a fight we fought outnumbered. We succeed in luring and trapping enemies that do their utmost to avoid any fight that is not an absolutely certain win daily.

Anyone that uses any of these as an argument to validate their use of exploits is simply wrong.


POS with scrambler and dread in siegemode.
Fleet logged off waiting in login screen warping to safe than pos.

Krakkan
ReDevils
Posted - 2006.01.25 11:59:00 - [263]
 

login trap exploit? why? noone seems to know so ill explain it again:

You can make a whole system and a enemy fleet lag like **** while you and your buddies dont lag at all thats what its all about.. not some corp called RAT killing a dread -.- they used a valid tactic, but the tactic is used by others as an exploit to get lag kills/lag out their enemy/cause the enemy to disconnect etc., and its against the terms of use to make server lag like that. read my other post in this thread(its a bit messed up but i dont want to edit 5000 times because of my bad english).

i have no idea why ppl are bothering RAT, they didnt use the login trap as an exploit, they didnt lag out their enemy or cause server lag did they? no i dont think they did, so they havent done anything except killing a dread using a valid tactic -.- so wtf are ppl whining about?! Razz

its the thing about the login trap being used to cause system lag and lag out your enemy while the ones using the tactic dont get lag that makes it an exploit and nothing else.. Evil or Very Mad

Khaldorn Murino
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.01.25 12:09:00 - [264]
 

Originally by: Rod Blaine

Logging off and on as a tactical manouvre is however something you can solve without breaking the game.

So why not ?


Oh I agree, i was just going off on a tangent trying to understand why most people (actually, sorry, most people I speak to or have fought who reside in 0.0) view alt spies as a valid part of the game and log in traps as the devils spawn.

But yeah, if it can be fixed, why the hell not.

Nebuli
Caldari
Capital Construction Research
Pioneer Alliance
Posted - 2006.01.25 12:10:00 - [265]
 

Originally by: Freidr
Have I any chance to catch dred by another tactic, if its logged off and have a scout in this system?

We haven't time to wait for it 24 hours/7 days.

THIS TACTIC ISN'T EXPLOIT


You are admitting your tactics are so bad, that the ONLY way you can get kills is by using a log in trap? Rolling Eyes

We are always using them in fleet fight, we fielded 4 the other day in a fleet fight, we have lost 2 to fleet fights, and 1 to lame ass log in trap, so dont tell me the ONLY way you can get kills is a log in trap, cuz thats plain BS, oh and dont play the outnumbered card, we engaged with 4 dreads when outnumbered 2:1 and still won the day, so please everyone stop using this "enemy wont engage unless they outnumber 2:1" and "its the only way to get kills" BS, we engage all the time, no matter if we are outnumbered or not, so please quit using both of these as excuses for using lame tactics.

Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.01.25 12:10:00 - [266]
 

Originally by: Masochist
Edited by: Masochist on 25/01/2006 12:02:42
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Well, that dread loss right abiove here was kind of your own fault, unless the enemy fleet warped to your position right after logging in, whoch I doubt somewhat.

If you take risks with dreads, always assume the enemy know what you are doing and will do the smartest thing they can do about it. In this case, sneak in a fleet when your control over the system is gone for a few hours and come back the next day at a time you are unlikely to have a fleet near to defend your dread.

That's not a logontrap, it's a reasonable tactic imo.

However, having a whole group sitting at the login screen waiting for the call that the enemy dread is scrambled or whatever just to log in, jump into the nextdoor system and gank the hell out of it is probably the singlemost lamest form of exploiting people have come up with so far in Eve.

Wether CCP enforce it or not, it remains nothing more then admitting your own inadequacies and lack of skills, and it remains an exploit in my eyes.


BoB have killed 5 dreads and havent needed an exploit to do it. We have lost 2 dreads in a fight we fought outnumbered. We succeed in luring and trapping enemies that do their utmost to avoid any fight that is not an absolutely certain win daily.

Anyone that uses any of these as an argument to validate their use of exploits is simply wrong.


POS with scrambler and dread in siegemode.
Fleet logged off waiting in login screen warping to safe than pos.


Yeah, thats why we dont like using dreads unless there's some backup to reomve tacklers form him when needed.

Terradoct
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.01.25 12:19:00 - [267]
 

Originally by: Nebuli
Originally by: Freidr
Have I any chance to catch dred by another tactic, if its logged off and have a scout in this system?

We haven't time to wait for it 24 hours/7 days.

THIS TACTIC ISN'T EXPLOIT


You are admitting your tactics are so bad, that the ONLY way you can get kills is by using a log in trap? Rolling Eyes

We are always using them in fleet fight, we fielded 4 the other day in a fleet fight, we have lost 2 to fleet fights, and 1 to lame ass log in trap, so dont tell me the ONLY way you can get kills is a log in trap, cuz thats plain BS, oh and dont play the outnumbered card, we engaged with 4 dreads when outnumbered 2:1 and still won the day, so please everyone stop using this "enemy wont engage unless they outnumber 2:1" and "its the only way to get kills" BS, we engage all the time, no matter if we are outnumbered or not, so please quit using both of these as excuses for using lame tactics.


You lost dread to your stupidity and greed for easy kill, every FC with more that 0 braincell can saw that it was a trap. But no LD went to that dread, RAT is not RA they do not have such pilot that are thinking that dread is frig, and he paid a price for making bad move. End of dicusion.
"Login trap" whine is nothing like a excues, lame excuse, no more no less.

Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.01.25 12:46:00 - [268]
 

Edited by: Rod Blaine on 25/01/2006 12:46:54
Sorry, wether he knewe it was a trap or not only says something about how intelligent and reckless he is. And if he did yet comes to whine here about logoff traps does exactly the same, just saying soemthing about his spine.


But none of that changes your lameness for even thinking about using that tactic on him. I can honestly say that I have NEVER used a logintrap on someone. Sure there's questionable stuff being done here and there, and I tend to liek people doing some of it here and there as long as it stays in the game.

But logging OFF and then ON to make sure your enemy has no chance of seeing you or dealing with you is not questionable, its the absolute rock bottom you can hit in Eve pvp. Hell it's even worse then logging off to save your pod or cheating on a 1v1.

How you can even think about publicly defending your position is utterly beyond me.

Terradoct
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.01.25 12:59:00 - [269]
 

Originally by: Rod Blaine
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 25/01/2006 12:46:54
Sorry, wether he knewe it was a trap or not only says something about how intelligent and reckless he is. And if he did yet comes to whine here about logoff traps does exactly the same, just saying soemthing about his spine.


But none of that changes your lameness for even thinking about using that tactic on him. I can honestly say that I have NEVER used a logintrap on someone. Sure there's questionable stuff being done here and there, and I tend to liek people doing some of it here and there as long as it stays in the game.

But logging OFF and then ON to make sure your enemy has no chance of seeing you or dealing with you is not questionable, its the absolute rock bottom you can hit in Eve pvp. Hell it's even worse then logging off to save your pod or cheating on a 1v1.

How you can even think about publicly defending your position is utterly beyond me.


Until there will be somthing like in "Mech Warrior" powerdown core of the robot to preven enemy from see you on radar (in eve it will hide you from map and local after say 5 minuts from powering down ships core) only visual contact can reviel you. Yet this will have advatage from not been spoted, but powering down ships core mean that ship will be drafing in space with 0 shield and 0 cap, after powering up core, shield and capacitor begin recharging.

Evil Thug
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2006.01.25 13:56:00 - [270]
 

WTT : 1 lone enemy dred warping to POS with 50 your alliance m8s in local FOR 1 unit of brain, and 1 unit of scanner.

Ah, yes, don`t cry for respect. We don`t need it. We play this game for fun, and we have our own definitions of it.

See ya in space.


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