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blankseplocked CCP: Why is a Log-on Trap not an Exploit?
 
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Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2006.01.24 12:42:00 - [151]
 

Edited by: Jowen Datloran on 24/01/2006 12:43:43
Damn, now it looks like I'm trying to compere the techniques used in login traps and macromining with each other but I wasn't.
The last sentence only refered to an popular exploit who many apparently belives is easy to spot while posts in this thread suggests it would be hard to spot abusage of a log in trap. I belive not.

So isn't log in traps clearly avoidance of game mechanics for the sole purpose of leading people in to a trap they have no way of avoiding (within the game mechanics)? I care little if this avoidance is done through voice chat, messenger or just yelling cross the room.

Selena Sellion
Posted - 2006.01.24 12:46:00 - [152]
 

Originally by: Malka Badi'a
Originally by: GigaIndy
Erm, we're trying to change this so griefers and gankers cant Grief and gank.K thx.
Wait, so you are trying to eliminate a compelte set of set of tactics just because you don't use or enjoy them? Let's play fair then.

OMFG NERF RAVEN!
OMFG NERF WCS!
OMFG NERF MWD DEADSPACE!
OMFG NERF MINING!!!!11



OMG NERF DUPING!!

Oh no wait its a legitimate tactic!! Just cos YOU dont use it to get an advantage!

Terradoct
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.01.24 12:47:00 - [153]
 

Originally by: Selena Sellion
Originally by: Malka Badi'a
Originally by: GigaIndy
Erm, we're trying to change this so griefers and gankers cant Grief and gank.K thx.
Wait, so you are trying to eliminate a compelte set of set of tactics just because you don't use or enjoy them? Let's play fair then.

OMFG NERF RAVEN!
OMFG NERF WCS!
OMFG NERF MWD DEADSPACE!
OMFG NERF MINING!!!!11



OMG NERF DUPING!!

Oh no wait its a legitimate tactic!! Just cos YOU dont use it to get an advantage!

Dupe was fix long long long long ago and now is history. the only thing is need of nerfing is your arrogance.

Rumata
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2006.01.24 13:00:00 - [154]
 

What enemies - such and tactics.
You wanted fight only at a triple superiority in numbers? We have forced you to fight at double yours superiority in numbers.
dont waste your time crying on this forum - go on test server and train pvp.
Yes, logind trap is lame tactics. This is tactics against lamers who can only cry and blob.
nuff said

Rumata
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2006.01.24 13:04:00 - [155]
 

Originally by: Selena Sellion
Login Trap; When a large number of hostiles log on simultaneously and imedately fly into combat with a pre-scouted unequal (weaker) enemy, giving them no time to react.



blind pity veritas member.
in 1v- our gang was twise lesser than yours
we have fraps and movie will be soon
15-20 RAT and 70 local

Devs please NERF BLOBS !!!111
Confused

Dematone
Caldari
Dark-Rising
Fallen Souls
Posted - 2006.01.24 13:08:00 - [156]
 

Hello there.

Sorry Ovour, but it's far from "Nuff said". This issue is indeed a great problem, and I really wonder that you do not declare it as an exploit. Well, I do not wonder any more, since I think you do not do this, because you would not be able to handle it, if people keep using it, because you do not yet have an idea to prevent it technicaly.

So, how about the following idea:

Why isn't there simple timer, that makes you invulnerable-but-also-unable-to-target-or-shoot-anyone-and-anything for a certain period of time, say 1 minute, after logging in? Just like it is after undocking from a station, with the difference you can't target others yourself too. It would give the possible targets of such a login trap enough time to flee the system, while no one can target the newly logged in people to kill them, since they are invulnerable (untargetable) towards you.

Terradoct
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.01.24 13:17:00 - [157]
 

Originally by: Dematone
Hello there.

Sorry Ovour, but it's far from "Nuff said". This issue is indeed a great problem, and I really wonder that you do not declare it as an exploit. Well, I do not wonder any more, since I think you do not do this, because you would not be able to handle it, if people keep using it, because you do not yet have an idea to prevent it technicaly.

So, how about the following idea:

Why isn't there simple timer, that makes you invulnerable-but-also-unable-to-target-or-shoot-anyone-and-anything for a certain period of time, say 1 minute, after logging in? Just like it is after undocking from a station, with the difference you can't target others yourself too. It would give the possible targets of such a login trap enough time to flee the system, while no one can target the newly logged in people to kill them, since they are invulnerable (untargetable) towards you.


Fleet A put bite in system A and lgoing off in system B
Fleet B saw Fleet's A bite, warping to it engaging. Fleet A loging in in system B, jump to system A and WTFPWN with OMG dmg Fleet B. does it loging trap? Even if we put that 1 minut timer. The same would happend, dread going in siege mode 10 minut at 9 minuts enemy fleet began to move, at 7 minut to the end of siege mode the are on top of dread, result dread is dead. After that you will go on forum and saw - "Omg lame loging trap tactic cause my dread to go boom... "

Rumata
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2006.01.24 13:17:00 - [158]
 

Originally by: Dematone
Hello there.

Sorry Ovour, but it's far from "Nuff said". This issue is indeed a great problem, and I really wonder that you do not declare it as an exploit. Well, I do not wonder any more, since I think you do not do this, because you would not be able to handle it, if people keep using it, because you do not yet have an idea to prevent it technicaly.

So, how about the following idea:

Why isn't there simple timer, that makes you invulnerable-but-also-unable-to-target-or-shoot-anyone-and-anything for a certain period of time, say 1 minute, after logging in? Just like it is after undocking from a station, with the difference you can't target others yourself too. It would give the possible targets of such a login trap enough time to flee the system, while no one can target the newly logged in people to kill them, since they are invulnerable (untargetable) towards you.



It will not help against forum-warir-whinners
In fight which V declared as login-trap I was logged in q-k - 1j from battle.
we logged in, make gang, warped on spot betwen gates, warped on insta to 1v, jumped, warped to our dread.
its took about 7-8 minutes i think. + about minute i was on screen "Entering game as Rumata"



Gonada
The Scope
Posted - 2006.01.24 13:18:00 - [159]
 

Sorry Ovour, but it's far from "Nuff said". This issue is indeed a great problem.
------------------------------------------------

yes , it is a great problem to whiney babies , but to everyone else with half a brain, its not.

you easymode types should not even be playing this game, isnt freelancer more your style?.


Malka Badi'a
Doomheim
Posted - 2006.01.24 13:26:00 - [160]
 

Quote:
OMG NERF DUPING!!

Oh no wait its a legitimate tactic!! Just cos YOU dont use it to get an advantage!
Because I don't get an advantage? Look who you are talking to? I support the log off tactic, and my NERF statements were in humor.

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2006.01.24 13:27:00 - [161]
 

Edited by: Avon on 24/01/2006 13:28:15
Originally by: Dematone

So, how about the following idea:

Why isn't there simple timer, that makes you invulnerable-but-also-unable-to-target-or-shoot-anyone-and-anything for a certain period of time, say 1 minute, after logging in? Just like it is after undocking from a station, with the difference you can't target others yourself too. It would give the possible targets of such a login trap enough time to flee the system, while no one can target the newly logged in people to kill them, since they are invulnerable (untargetable) towards you.


Here is the problem with game mechanic solutions.
Exactly the same mechanics you describe could easily be abused.

Want to leave a heavily gatecamped system?
Warp to planet next to gate.
Log off
Log on
Fly past gatecamp whilst you are still invulnerable.
You see?

Dematone
Caldari
Dark-Rising
Fallen Souls
Posted - 2006.01.24 13:37:00 - [162]
 

Originally by: Rumata

It will not help against forum-warir-whinners
In fight which V declared as login-trap I was logged in q-k - 1j from battle.
we logged in, make gang, warped on spot betwen gates, warped on insta to 1v, jumped, warped to our dread.
its took about 7-8 minutes i think. + about minute i was on screen "Entering game as Rumata"



That's not a login trap, IMHO. If they are so undecisive, to require half a day to think about the possible options what to do, it's your own fault.

Gonada, if you had a brain I had to answer your post. I'm glad you don't!


Dematone
Caldari
Dark-Rising
Fallen Souls
Posted - 2006.01.24 13:39:00 - [163]
 

Edited by: Dematone on 24/01/2006 13:39:29
Originally by: Avon

Here is the problem with game mechanic solutions.
Exactly the same mechanics you describe could easily be abused.

Want to leave a heavily gatecamped system?
Warp to planet next to gate.
Log off
Log on
Fly past gatecamp whilst you are still invulnerable.
You see?



Yeah, I feared there was something I was not thinking about, just did not know what. :)

That makes my idea... well, crap. :(
Thanks for your post!

Darcuese
Destructive Influence
KenZoku
Posted - 2006.01.24 13:52:00 - [164]
 

LaughingOh, oh..may i, May I??
Please, please...i got new solution...weeiiii.

Those that log of (ESC/QUIT) in 0.0 systems should be transported randomly to corners of empire next time they log in.

No login traps, not running away (log of) from those that hunt you, you cant use it to go to empire cause you would be randomly placed in system maybe 20 jumps away from the one you wanted to go to,etc,etc.-...and for those that need to quit because of RL stuff...well, EVE>RLLaughing

Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
Posted - 2006.01.24 14:00:00 - [165]
 

/ignore Rumata
/ignore Gonada

Stop talking about log on traps or exploits or what not... we desperately need a forum ignore function.

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2006.01.24 14:01:00 - [166]
 

Originally by: Dematone

Yeah, I feared there was something I was not thinking about, just did not know what. :)

That makes my idea... well, crap. :(
Thanks for your post!


Don't take it the wrong way.
I think it is good that you are trying to come up with ideas, and I have seen much worse suggestions.
The thing is, introducing a game mechanic to solve one problem is a very hard thing to do in a balanced way. Often it will result in unbalancing another aspect of the game, sometimes something seemingly completely unrelated.

If anything I am quite heartened by your reply.
Many people would automatically go in to the defensive 'stfu n00b' stance, which does nothing to help solve the issue.
So long as people are willing to float ideas, and others are there to point out the weaknesses of them, and both sides remain civil and open, there is always a chance that a balanced solution may be found.
This is the strength of the forums.

It is one thing to say 'omg devs, this sux, fix it', and expect them to have the time to work through the issue; but it quite another to say 'Here is the problem Dev's, and here is our proposed solution'.

Selous
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2006.01.24 14:07:00 - [167]
 

someone on page 2 suggested a map display option ` players logged off in last 2/4/6 hours`

not a perfect solution but could provide some intel about potential login traps ?.

Dematone
Caldari
Dark-Rising
Fallen Souls
Posted - 2006.01.24 14:17:00 - [168]
 

Hey Avon.
You are so right m8. It is just sad, that people who think that way, seem to have to tell that they are, as it is not the usual way here on this forums, and probably on nearly no other board in this "wild wild west", any more. Most of the people just answer with their common "hey stfu whiner" or "stfu noob", without even thinking about the problem, or the idea, nor an other possible solution. You just have to skip over them in most of the cases, and ignore them, as any comment regarding their post just serves and credits their basic understanding of the world (or at least the "internet" as such), which is the struggle for beeing the toughest guy on the board with the most destructive comments. But sometimes even I can not refrain from commenting on such crap.

I welcome any comment on my postings, as long as they are constructive. Everone should be able to try understand the view of others. Otherwise he/she will never be able to find a solution to anything more complicated than finding the right time to visit the toilet.


However, I just got another idea. :)

The idea:
-----
If you log out in space, you should warp to a place, some hundret AU off, not just KM. Just so you would appear on local about one minute before you arrive on the place, where you have logged out. No invulnerability, nothing.
I imagine that would be the resurrection of super-duper-saves, but I think that could just be prevented, by only enable creating a bookmark if the closest static object (station, planet, moon, stargate) to you is less than X KM away.

If you do not want to have to wait a minute at log in, log off in a station. If their is no station in the system you are in, well, then you gotta take this into account. One minute is not the world, and would not change I lot I think. I would even see this minute as little step towards realism.
-----

Drawbacks? Could that be abused in any way? Feedback is welcome!
As said, this is a suggestion, which may not really work, but it could serve as a basic idea of how to solve this issue. The idea is supplied as-is. Any destructive comments will simply be ignored.

Hans Roaming
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
Posted - 2006.01.24 15:50:00 - [169]
 

Ok well am suprised to be honest at RAT doing this as when we've fought them they have shown good skill and regardless of the outcome it's been a pleasure to fight with them. I would have thought they would have used off route systems to assemble and disperse their fleet in etc rather than use this tactic of last resort.

One potential solution would be a random warp when you log back in as opposed to where you logged off from, of course this is open to abuse by people escaping from being hunted down so not a great one.

How about pilots logged off in the last 24 hours in space (not docked in stations) on the map? Ok it gives you more info about disposition of forces in a region, but no more than say pilots in space or jumps does. However what it does give you is an indication of a logon trap waiting for you in front of your route as it should stick out like a sore thumb for big abusers. I feel it does need something as if the login trap becomes a standard game mechanic like having a fleet waiting on the other side of a gate then it will probably kill the game for most people.

Am still grining at the thought of people playing eve by staring at the login screen for ages until they are told to log in, that is just so funny. Laughing

Terradoct
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.01.24 15:53:00 - [170]
 

Originally by: Hans Roaming
Ok well am suprised to be honest at RAT doing this as when we've fought them they have shown good skill and regardless of the outcome it's been a pleasure to fight with them. I would have thought they would have used off route systems to assemble and disperse their fleet in etc rather than use this tactic of last resort.

One potential solution would be a random warp when you log back in as opposed to where you logged off from, of course this is open to abuse by people escaping from being hunted down so not a great one.

How about pilots logged off in the last 24 hours in space (not docked in stations) on the map? Ok it gives you more info about disposition of forces in a region, but no more than say pilots in space or jumps does. However what it does give you is an indication of a logon trap waiting for you in front of your route as it should stick out like a sore thumb for big abusers. I feel it does need something as if the login trap becomes a standard game mechanic like having a fleet waiting on the other side of a gate then it will probably kill the game for most people.

Am still grining at the thought of people playing eve by staring at the login screen for ages until they are told to log in, that is just so funny. Laughing


Main BS fleet where logoff in nearby system, not in the same system. Read cearfully not jump in the thread by reading only fist post in it.

Hans Roaming
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
Posted - 2006.01.24 16:16:00 - [171]
 

Edited by: Hans Roaming on 24/01/2006 16:16:49
Originally by: Terradoct
Originally by: Hans Roaming
Ok well am suprised to be honest at RAT doing this as when we've fought them they have shown good skill and regardless of the outcome it's been a pleasure to fight with them. I would have thought they would have used off route systems to assemble and disperse their fleet in etc rather than use this tactic of last resort.

<Snip>



Ok I should have said 'whilst logged on' as in what Bob hinted at what they do further up, is this what happend with the freighter as well, logged off in another system, scout sees it in place and fleet jumps in?

Maybe an option is the ability to power down your ship in space so that it is indetectable from local and scans as you can't see the power signature however when it powers on systems have to come online especially the cap which would have to charge up from zero. This would allow ambushes without having to use an out of game mechanism i.e. Teamspeak/Vent combined with loging in to do.

Right now we're fighting FIX in FAT and having some good fights, I think if it came down to both side having 1 bait at the station and suddenly local fills up as both fleets log on to get warped to the station and gank the other then the game will just become unenjoyable for all involved.

Flyyn
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2006.01.24 16:55:00 - [172]
 

So a log on trap is exploit?
Third party programs must be used to do this?
Simple solution, ban all that use teamspeak and Vent...


So hahaha...that did not sound serious did it?

CCP Oveur

Posted - 2006.01.24 17:03:00 - [173]
 

Originally by: Rod Blaine
Originally by: Avon
Rod.

If you just define it as an exploit then everyone and his dog will petition every loss that included someone entering local.
We both know that is true, some people will petition anything.

If you look for a game mechanic solution to what has become an issue (because of the slow warps of some ships), it needs to be carefully thought out.

Personally, whilst I think the whole thing sucks, I don't really see where to go with it.

If we are pragmatic we have to face the fact that in all honesty a log on trap shouldn't really be that much of an issue.
We are talking about a situation where a freighter has to make a long jump through a low security system without an insta - or with an insta but taking so long that the enemy have time to log on, warp in, and deploy a bubble.
What is more, the enemy fleet has to do this without the freighter pilot noticing, because if he logs off when they log in they probably won't have enough time to kill him (no PvP timer because he wouldn't be online when aggression starts).

All of the above is before we factor in the fact that the freighter should have an adequate escort, and the route should have been scouted.

Now, it may be that this happens a lot more than I would imagine, in which case it may be a very valid concern, but is it currently worthy of action?

Probably not.


Nice and dandy as an answer, and yeah, it makes sense.

But tbh, the
Quote:

If you look for a game mechanic solution to what has become an issue (because of the slow warps of some ships), it needs to be carefully thought out.


..bit is so easily solved that I just get angry at how CCP run this game with entirely too few resources.

We all knwo there's tons of bugs and imbalances out there. We even know a practical solution for part of them.

But CCP makes no sound and no move on the far majority (unless pressed about it on the forums for over half a year)

They have a game that needs alot of handling. They launched a beta version that needed development, and the way this game works simply requires loads more upkeep then your standard EQ clone does that does one expansion a year.

I guess I used this thread to vent some of that frustration about CCP and their inabilities.

It's the damning choice between a big corp like SOE that would have the abilities and cash, and the little guys like CCP that have the vision but lack professionalism and resources.


I could have pciekd a better subject to poison with my cranky ness I guess. It's not like I rally care about thsi one anyway Wink Not really that serious an issue tbh.

Logging on and off has been a mess since day 1. The problem is not ideas to solve it or anything like that, the problem is implementing them after the fact, when a lot of other gameplay is dependant on said logic.

For example, IMO we should never have removed ships from space at all, because I think that's cool and more realistic. However, that's simply not feasible to implement today.

We've implemented other failsafes to address this problem. Some of you might remember when you popped up right on the same location you logged out in - and you didn't even warp away then! Very Happy

But doing anything more drastic has serious consequences. Who knows what situation you were in when you get disconnected? What if there are two of you against three and you are winning.

Pop goes your internet connection - and your ship starts to warp away. You frantically try to reconnect. But no, the flavor of the month is to prevent log-on traps, therefore when reconnecing, your ship is powered down and it takes 2 minutes to "recharge". Yay for you and yay for your friend.

Oh, and if people have problems with how I reply on the forums, just go read some other thread. My replies are usually my personal opinion and I do it for my amusement to reply, not yours.

Mnengli Noiliffe
Posted - 2006.01.24 17:06:00 - [174]
 

You guys who advocate both making this an exploit and removal of local contradict yourselves, and I'll try to prove this.

1. local is bad and needs to go. RIGHT?
2. no local means that you can't see who's in this system. Because local is bad and needs to go, it's good to be unable to see who's in system. RIGHT?
3. offline means you can't see those who are in system, so discussed "exploit" allows to make others not to see offlined person in system. RIGHT?
4. however, you think that logoff is bad, so not seeing who is in system is bad. RIGHT?

But 4. and 2. contradict each other...

GC13
Caldari
Species 5618
R0ADKILL
Posted - 2006.01.24 17:14:00 - [175]
 

Oveur reminds me of the dude who owns The Forge: Too much like me for me to like. >.<

Of course, I gotta respect him for telling it like it is, but he doesn't even wear boxing gloves: he's all about the bare knuckles.

(In Eve terms, I'd have to say my standings towards Oveur are at a +3.0 or +3.5. I'm not one of those people who has you at -10.0, 0.0, or +10.0; that ain't my style.)

But Oveur: Never change. The thing I love about your and all of CCP is you're so danged accessible. Now, if you could just look at the Sabretooth's description and tell me how the EM missile is supposed to do equally well against shields and armor. ugh

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.01.24 17:14:00 - [176]
 

Edited by: j0sephine on 24/01/2006 17:19:25

"someone on page 2 suggested a map display option ` players logged off in last 2/4/6 hours`"

This is what i was about to suggest, but it seems someone already did... basically yes, add extra filter to the map -- 'number of ships logged out in last hour/24 hours'

Name it in some RP manner, and only include in the count ships that actually stay logged out (when the particular ship logs back in, reduce the counter)

It the provides functionality similar to the map, and allows one to estimate the risk. Which means the logon trap is no longer silver bullet to catch people, which in turn reduces reasons to use it, because there's now potential counter for the lameness...

(and since it's just passsive map-side meter thing, it doesn't affect people who crash and have to relog etc... in any way)

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2006.01.24 17:17:00 - [177]
 

I have to tend to agree on a map feature over a game mechanic.
Even if you broke the current 'jumps' filter to 'jump ins' and 'jump outs', let the players do the maths.

Benilopax
Gallente
The Ashen Lion Syndicate
Posted - 2006.01.24 17:22:00 - [178]
 

Ladies and gentlemen we have the answer Very Happy

Uncauzi
Gallente
No Trademark
Auctorita Alliance
Posted - 2006.01.24 17:24:00 - [179]
 

Originally by: Mnengli Noiliffe
You guys who advocate both making this an exploit and removal of local contradict yourselves, and I'll try to prove this.

1. local is bad and needs to go. RIGHT?
2. no local means that you can't see who's in this system. Because local is bad and needs to go, it's good to be unable to see who's in system. RIGHT?
3. offline means you can't see those who are in system, so discussed "exploit" allows to make others not to see offlined person in system. RIGHT?
4. however, you think that logoff is bad, so not seeing who is in system is bad. RIGHT?

But 4. and 2. contradict each other...


No, 2 and 4 do not contradict each other because not seeing someone in the system isn't bad, it's the method that allowed it is bad. Removing local levels the playing field and the players would adapt accordingly. Also, there'd be no reason for a massive log in which causes lag.

Really, it's quite simple, try and keep up..:)

Also, Avon..good posts.

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.01.24 17:37:00 - [180]
 

Edited by: j0sephine on 24/01/2006 17:38:04

Oh, and as far as the alternative 'powerdown' idea goes... while it's a bit "meh", it's not too difficult to fix most of the pointed out drawbacks.

If a ship doesn't log in within 5 minutes since last disconnect, on next log in there's 30 second 'warmup' during which ship stays cloaked at the "1 mil off original spot" point. Once this timer is up, cloak goes off and the ship warps back to original log out point, as per usual.

If you were part of 'even fight' and crashed, if you couldn't log back within the 5 mins chances are it's already over by then, or at point where that 30 extra secs won't make difference. if you were doing NPC mission, crashed and couldn't log fast enough either, 30 secs won't again make much difference and you can be back in fight as soon as the regular warp-back phase is done. (and while you aren't, you're away from the rats *and* cloaked to boot) And since it's just 30 secs period and you stay under cloak during this time, the ship can't be probed down and caught defenseless, either.

The only people who get really affected by it are the ones who stay logged off idle and 'wait for Teh Sign' ... they can of course try to log back in every 5 mins to prevent the warmup phase from kicking in, but then it signifincatly increases odds they'll be spotted by scouts.

Though still, i kind of like the map solution better. But dunno which one would be easier to implement and this warmup thing looks like less work, at a glance. ^^;;


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