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blankseplocked CCP: Why is a Log-on Trap not an Exploit?
 
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Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.01.24 11:45:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: Avon
Rod.

If you just define it as an exploit then everyone and his dog will petition every loss that included someone entering local.
We both know that is true, some people will petition anything.

If you look for a game mechanic solution to what has become an issue (because of the slow warps of some ships), it needs to be carefully thought out.

Personally, whilst I think the whole thing sucks, I don't really see where to go with it.

If we are pragmatic we have to face the fact that in all honesty a log on trap shouldn't really be that much of an issue.
We are talking about a situation where a freighter has to make a long jump through a low security system without an insta - or with an insta but taking so long that the enemy have time to log on, warp in, and deploy a bubble.
What is more, the enemy fleet has to do this without the freighter pilot noticing, because if he logs off when they log in they probably won't have enough time to kill him (no PvP timer because he wouldn't be online when aggression starts).

All of the above is before we factor in the fact that the freighter should have an adequate escort, and the route should have been scouted.

Now, it may be that this happens a lot more than I would imagine, in which case it may be a very valid concern, but is it currently worthy of action?

Probably not.


Nice and dandy as an answer, and yeah, it makes sense.

But tbh, the
Quote:

If you look for a game mechanic solution to what has become an issue (because of the slow warps of some ships), it needs to be carefully thought out.


..bit is so easily solved that I just get angry at how CCP run this game with entirely too few resources.

We all knwo there's tons of bugs and imbalances out there. We even know a practical solution for part of them.

But CCP makes no sound and no move on the far majority (unless pressed about it on the forums for over half a year)

They have a game that needs alot of handling. They launched a beta version that needed development, and the way this game works simply requires loads more upkeep then your standard EQ clone does that does one expansion a year.

I guess I used this thread to vent some of that frustration about CCP and their inabilities.

It's the damning choice between a big corp like SOE that would have the abilities and cash, and the little guys like CCP that have the vision but lack professionalism and resources.


I could have pciekd a better subject to poison with my cranky ness I guess. It's not like I rally care about thsi one anyway Wink Not really that serious an issue tbh.

Finix Jaeger
Minmatar
Doomheim
Posted - 2006.01.24 11:47:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Butter Dog
Am I missing something here?

How is this any different to a bunch of people waiting on the other side of a gate for a warp-in point from a covert ops?

They all enter the system immediately and warp to the covert ops. It takes the same length of time to warp to the target as logging-in and warping. The lag is the same too.

For that reason I totally fail to see why it should be an exploit.


Its pretty hard to scout out ppl that arent logged in...

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2006.01.24 11:48:00 - [123]
 

Well, as CCP can't afford you and me Rod they'll just have to manage as best they can.

For what it's worth I know exactly what you mean, and mostly I agree.

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2006.01.24 11:49:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: Finix Jaeger

Its pretty hard to scout out ppl that arent logged in...


If no-one is logged in, how do they know when to spring the trap?

Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
Posted - 2006.01.24 11:51:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: Avon
Well, as CCP can't afford you and me Rod they'll just have to manage as best they can.

For what it's worth I know exactly what you mean, and mostly I agree.


Oh, see you just found a good thing about them not having that many resources.

Oh and in part I agree as well.

Dahin
Maza Nostra
HELL4S
Posted - 2006.01.24 11:54:00 - [126]
 

I think you have to agree on me at least on the following point:
"Log-on traps are used because local exists."

Stop *****ing because someone found a way to counter your uber scout-tool. Is it "lame"? Probably, because it involves exiting/entering the server and thus not using "ingame" mechanics (but still accepted mechanics).
Is it an exploit/should be an exploit?
Hell no!

/me directs people to the local-thread-of-the-month to solve their existencial problems.

theRaptor
Caldari
Tactical Operations
Posted - 2006.01.24 11:56:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: Butter Dog
Am I missing something here?

How is this any different to a bunch of people waiting on the other side of a gate for a warp-in point from a covert ops?

They all enter the system immediately and warp to the covert ops. It takes the same length of time to warp to the target as logging-in and warping. The lag is the same too.

For that reason I totally fail to see why it should be an exploit.


With a decent scout you would notice them hiding in surrounding systems and they would show on the map.

GigaIndy
Gigacorp
Posted - 2006.01.24 11:57:00 - [128]
 

Originally by: Butter Dog
Am I missing something here?

How is this any different to a bunch of people waiting on the other side of a gate for a warp-in point from a covert ops?

They all enter the system immediately and warp to the covert ops. It takes the same length of time to warp to the target as logging-in and warping. The lag is the same too.

For that reason I totally fail to see why it should be an exploit.


BECAUSE YOU CAN SCOUT THOSE PEOPLE, AND KNOW THEY ARE THERE!

Oppps caps, But maybe its good, some people need to be yelled at.

Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.01.24 11:58:00 - [129]
 

Dahin, if you are not skilled enough to work around the local channel without logging off and on then you simple are no good, period.

We never EVER do logontraps. Why ? Because they are lame and should indeed be an exploit. The only reason they arent is because CCP cant enforce them.

Tell yourself that it's allright, that you'd be sooo uber if there just wasn't this thing called local and that exploiting and logontrapping is just your way of evening the unfair odds against the carebears.

Rolling Eyes

Butter Dog
Gallente
The Monocled Elite
Posted - 2006.01.24 11:59:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: GigaIndy
Originally by: Butter Dog
Am I missing something here?

How is this any different to a bunch of people waiting on the other side of a gate for a warp-in point from a covert ops?

They all enter the system immediately and warp to the covert ops. It takes the same length of time to warp to the target as logging-in and warping. The lag is the same too.

For that reason I totally fail to see why it should be an exploit.


BECAUSE YOU CAN SCOUT THOSE PEOPLE, AND KNOW THEY ARE THERE!

Oppps caps, But maybe its good, some people need to be yelled at.


Oh okay. Fair enough. Though the standard avoidance tactics should work if you are just passing through.

GigaIndy
Gigacorp
Posted - 2006.01.24 11:59:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: Dahin
I think you have to agree on me at least on the following point:
"Log-on traps are used because local exists."

Stop *****ing because someone found a way to counter your uber scout-tool. Is it "lame"? Probably, because it involves exiting/entering the server and thus not using "ingame" mechanics (but still accepted mechanics).
Is it an exploit/should be an exploit?
Hell no!

/me directs people to the local-thread-of-the-month to solve their existencial problems.



People like you make me cry.

But crying can be fun right? Crying or Very sad

GigaIndy
Gigacorp
Posted - 2006.01.24 12:00:00 - [132]
 

Originally by: Butter Dog
Originally by: GigaIndy
Originally by: Butter Dog
Am I missing something here?

How is this any different to a bunch of people waiting on the other side of a gate for a warp-in point from a covert ops?

They all enter the system immediately and warp to the covert ops. It takes the same length of time to warp to the target as logging-in and warping. The lag is the same too.

For that reason I totally fail to see why it should be an exploit.


BECAUSE YOU CAN SCOUT THOSE PEOPLE, AND KNOW THEY ARE THERE!

Oppps caps, But maybe its good, some people need to be yelled at.


Oh okay. Fair enough. Though the standard avoidance tactics should work if you are just passing through.


True, So just passing through. Thats fine, but people who are in engaged in a fight are screwd in the magical bum.

Flyyn
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2006.01.24 12:01:00 - [133]
 

Am I missing somthing here? I seem to be a little confused on personal freedoms here....I mean did'nt the commies loose power? Did'nt that idot paper hanger blow his brains out?

WHAT gives you pk'ers/griefers the right to tell me when I can log and not log?

You already forced CCP to change the player handbook, Where is said "If you get into somthing you find you cant handle, simply log off." Now after a disconection you want me to wait longer to log on?


If you are in space where they can trap you like that then tough...0.0 aint for whimps. You did'nt have enough support for you BFS??? cry me a frigging river!


This game has changed, but I will continue to play it "My way" not yours....


Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
Posted - 2006.01.24 12:05:00 - [134]
 

But you know what's getting me even more cranky then CCPs inability to fix certain things that are either pretty servere or a big annoyance for a long time....

The ever increasing amount of complete fools on this forum.

GigaIndy
Gigacorp
Posted - 2006.01.24 12:06:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Flyyn
Am I missing somthing here? I seem to be a little confused on personal freedoms here....I mean did'nt the commies loose power? Did'nt that idot paper hanger blow his brains out?

WHAT gives you pk'ers/griefers the right to tell me when I can log and not log?

You already forced CCP to change the player handbook, Where is said "If you get into somthing you find you cant handle, simply log off." Now after a disconection you want me to wait longer to log on?


If you are in space where they can trap you like that then tough...0.0 aint for whimps. You did'nt have enough support for you BFS??? cry me a frigging river!


This game has changed, but I will continue to play it "My way" not yours....




Erm, we're trying to change this so griefers and gankers cant Grief and gank.

K thx.

Malka Badi'a
Doomheim
Posted - 2006.01.24 12:08:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: GigaIndy
Erm, we're trying to change this so griefers and gankers cant Grief and gank.K thx.
Wait, so you are trying to eliminate a compelte set of set of tactics just because you don't use or enjoy them? Let's play fair then.

OMFG NERF RAVEN!
OMFG NERF WCS!
OMFG NERF MWD DEADSPACE!
OMFG NERF MINING!!!!11

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2006.01.24 12:09:00 - [137]
 

Originally by: Gariuys
But you know what's getting me even more cranky then CCPs inability to fix certain things that are either pretty servere or a big annoyance for a long time....

The ever increasing amount of complete fools on this forum.


I agree, the competition is getting tough .. Neutral

Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.01.24 12:11:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Gariuys
But you know what's getting me even more cranky then CCPs inability to fix certain things that are either pretty servere or a big annoyance for a long time....

The ever increasing amount of complete fools on this forum.


I agree, the competition is getting tough .. Neutral


ahem

Well, i was thinking of going off and doing something different again. So maybe I wont be bothered with the whole mess much longer.

I agree tho, CCP should institute a required assesment test for regular forum posters tbh.

Corp Scammer
Posted - 2006.01.24 12:11:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Gariuys
But you know what's getting me even more cranky then CCPs inability to fix certain things that are either pretty servere or a big annoyance for a long time....

The ever increasing amount of complete fools on this forum.


I agree, the competition is getting tough .. Neutral


lol avon well i agree on that one - though lots of educated fools make solid contributions and not all of them are from BOB either

BOldMan
Reikoku
IT Alliance
Posted - 2006.01.24 12:12:00 - [140]
 

A good fleet comander will use a covop in front, one back of fleet and one covop log of (on loging screen)to see who is missing from sistem. Shocked

Solution? Maybe, Log of, means 15 min in sistem with agro pennalty, and 1 hour present in scanner such a wreckage, imune to probes. tweak the numbers. Or loggin in give a zero cap, wait to reload. Or... such many solutions, only the will to implement is missing.

Corp Scammer
Posted - 2006.01.24 12:15:00 - [141]
 

hmmm cap reduction but what about ctd (can happen esp when CCP get things wrong but most of the time youre dead anyway) um yeah that oculd work - force em to recharge their cap when they log back in. dunno discuss further.

Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
Posted - 2006.01.24 12:18:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: BOldMan
A good fleet comander will use a covop in front, one back of fleet and one covop log of (on loging screen)to see who is missing from sistem. Shocked

Solution? Maybe, Log of, means 15 min in sistem with agro pennalty, and 1 hour present in scanner such a wreckage, imune to probes. tweak the numbers. Or loggin in give a zero cap, wait to reload. Or... such many solutions, only the will to implement is missing.


And all the cases where people justifiably log in? After disconnect/CTD, or even normal gampeplay? It really isn't that simple. You cannot punish people for doing as basic as logging on cause it's misused in some cases.

Terradoct
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.01.24 12:22:00 - [143]
 

All of you that are screaming and crying are just a bunch of mother's son's. "They killed my dready momyyyyy they cheated" , grow up a little ,kids, this game isn't for you if you have such attitued.

Tommynator
Caldari
Posted - 2006.01.24 12:22:00 - [144]
 

Login timer is a STUPID idea. EvE often CTDs for different reasons, server, connection, graphics card or memory related and so on and so forth.

I very much like the idea about "warp signatures" though. If you could scan for recent energy/warp/wtfpwn signatures, you would be able to see that for example 60 ships were recently there.
Realistically ship engines should leave some kind of detectable trace, at least certain types or sizes of them!

Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2006.01.24 12:22:00 - [145]
 

Edited by: Jowen Datloran on 24/01/2006 12:24:17
Originally by: Mr Bright
Edited by: Mr Bright on 24/01/2006 10:56:24
Doesn't the EULA say that you cant use 3rd party programs to gain an advantage? Yet here it seems, people are using a 3rd party program to coordinate an ingame event that effects others range of actions without there being any chance to counter it if you are flying large ships.



This I completely agree with. Can anybdoy come up with a good explaination to why this is NOT a usage of 3rd party programs to get an unfair advantage?

Hell, I bet it's easier to prove that people are using a mass loging trap than it is to prove a macro miner.

EDIT: Can't you just ban these pathetic people for my sake any how? They make these funny noises when reality hits them.

GigaIndy
Gigacorp
Posted - 2006.01.24 12:27:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: Terradoct
All of you that are screaming and crying are just a bunch of mother's son's. "They killed my dready momyyyyy they cheated" , grow up a little ,kids, this game isn't for you if you have such attitued.



omg mommy please let me stab him in the eye.


To make this simple for all the slow people in the thread.

Logging on to get the advantage over someone, because they had no idea you were around. IS CHEATING.

Thats right. ITs the same as wall hack, and aim bot.

Cheating, you people are actualy defending cheating.

I think it is you, whose in the wrong game. I can here counter strike screaming your names now.

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2006.01.24 12:32:00 - [147]
 

Originally by: Jowen Datloran
Edited by: Jowen Datloran on 24/01/2006 12:24:17
Originally by: Mr Bright
Edited by: Mr Bright on 24/01/2006 10:56:24
Doesn't the EULA say that you cant use 3rd party programs to gain an advantage? Yet here it seems, people are using a 3rd party program to coordinate an ingame event that effects others range of actions without there being any chance to counter it if you are flying large ships.



This I completely agree with. Can anybdoy come up with a good explaination to why this is NOT a usage of 3rd party programs to get an unfair advantage?

Hell, I bet it's easier to prove that people are using a mass loging trap than it is to prove a macro miner.


Voice comms are allowed because they do not directly interact with or control the Eve client.
Macros do.

Terradoct
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.01.24 12:34:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: GigaIndy
Originally by: Terradoct
All of you that are screaming and crying are just a bunch of mother's son's. "They killed my dready momyyyyy they cheated" , grow up a little ,kids, this game isn't for you if you have such attitued.



omg mommy please let me stab him in the eye.


To make this simple for all the slow people in the thread.

Logging on to get the advantage over someone, because they had no idea you were around. IS CHEATING.

Thats right. ITs the same as wall hack, and aim bot.

Cheating, you people are actualy defending cheating.

I think it is you, whose in the wrong game. I can here counter strike screaming your names now.


When I was in army my squad got ambushed, luckly it was only simulation not real combat, mistake that we took was that didn't pay attention that two days before enemy team was moving throught that sector, but we had no intel that they left it. Same here RAT gang was there the day befor fight, it' -V- fault that they didn't payed attention to that. And who should be stabed right in the eye and poded several times is you who whine like little kids. Until you start thinking and not crying and runing to the board moaning - "lame tactic you cheaters bla bla bla".

My corpmate was abushed by gang of -LV- hac's, does he whining about login tactic here, no. beacous it was his fault that he was caught unguarded.

Indigo Callypso
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.01.24 12:35:00 - [149]
 

Well, if Oveur thinks it's lame but basically unenforcable...why don't the Devs take 20 or 30 minutes, log on themselves to fleets of habitual offenders...and smash said fleet...then log off with no comments? No rules necessary...you just never know when the right hand of the Joves will pluck your existence from this universe. If I have my history right, they did something like this to someone already.

GigaIndy
Gigacorp
Posted - 2006.01.24 12:36:00 - [150]
 

that comparison actualy proves my point.

If your ambushed in real life, its your fault for not "scouting"

In eve, while during a log on trap there was no realistic counter what so ever. Because the ships arnt there, and the people arnt there to see.

Your silly squad, could have literaly seen it coming. In eve you cant, those soldiers that ambushed you,did they just materialize out of thin air? Did they just log on? and appear there?

I think not.


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