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blankseplocked CCP: Why is a Log-on Trap not an Exploit?
 
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BOldMan
Reikoku
IT Alliance
Posted - 2006.01.24 10:32:00 - [91]
 

Originally by: Lifewire
Logoff-traps = lame.

Just imagine how 50 idiots were starring at their login-screen for 3 hours until they could log in. 50 carebears that are not able to nail you with standard EVE PVP and need to hide "in the bushes" for 3 hours until you, the free and proud EVE player came along. This is so funny that you will be the mental winner.



Rofl.

Talos Darkhart
Minmatar
Republic University
Posted - 2006.01.24 10:38:00 - [92]
 

After ouvers comment it would appear CCP do it log on style as well I all ways knew the devs looked shiftyYARRRR!!

BOldMan
Reikoku
IT Alliance
Posted - 2006.01.24 10:50:00 - [93]
 

Originally by: Darcuese
Well, it would be funny if every person that log of in space (log of with ESC and QUIT buttons) could be randomly put 10 jumps away next time they log inTwisted EvilTwisted Evil.


I like to travel. Please ccp, do that.

Selena Sellion
Posted - 2006.01.24 10:54:00 - [94]
 

Originally by: Oveur
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Turin
Edited by: Turin on 23/01/2006 17:56:05
Actually, i thought it WAS considerd an exploit. I have read that several times here on the forums. Report them. The names of the people, the system it took place in, and the time they logged in.

It stopped being an exploit when you no longer logged in exactly where you logged off.

Quote:

And people who do it are lame as hell.


Agreed.

Nuff said.



Right.. so you admit its lame, know it causes problems and is uncounterrable. And yet you offer no justifcation for it not being an exploit. WTF?

Selena Sellion
Posted - 2006.01.24 10:54:00 - [95]
 

I guess at least we have a Dev on record saying RAT. are lame.

Mr Bright
Shade.
Mercenary Coalition
Posted - 2006.01.24 10:56:00 - [96]
 

Edited by: Mr Bright on 24/01/2006 10:56:24
Originally by: Oveur
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Turin
Edited by: Turin on 23/01/2006 17:56:05
Actually, i thought it WAS considerd an exploit. I have read that several times here on the forums. Report them. The names of the people, the system it took place in, and the time they logged in.

It stopped being an exploit when you no longer logged in exactly where you logged off.

Quote:

And people who do it are lame as hell.


Agreed.

Nuff said.


To be honest, if this had been decided before I decided to return to eve - I would have stayed away. Doesn't the EULA say that you cant use 3rd party programs to gain an advantage? Yet here it seems, people are using a 3rd party program to coordinate an ingame event that effects others range of actions without there being any chance to counter it if you are flying large ships.

It seems like CCP instead of giving solutions just give up.... A simple delay when logging on in space should be easy to implement, just 2 mins on the log in point would do alot to remove the problems with login traps. You could counter "reverse ganking" with a automatic cloaking like when you use a gate, and add protection from probes. This would buy anyone in the system when a log in occours more than 2 mins of time to react, and maybe even give the servers time to respond to the sudden jump in population.

I am trully disappointed in CCP on this one single occasion, never seem them shy away from going in and solving stuff - at least eventually.

Old Beta Player, back on a new lease of life - loving all the changes, but this one decision just leaves me confused.

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2006.01.24 10:57:00 - [97]
 

Originally by: Selena Sellion

Right.. so you admit its lame, know it causes problems and is uncounterrable. And yet you offer no justifcation for it not being an exploit. WTF?


So, by the same arguement insta-jumps should be banned (at least in empire space where they are definately uncounterable), yes?
I agree, let's do it.

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2006.01.24 11:07:00 - [98]
 

Originally by: Mr Bright

To be honest, if this had been decided before I decided to return to eve - I would have stayed away. Doesn't the EULA say that you cant use 3rd party programs to gain an advantage? Yet here it seems, people are using a 3rd party program to coordinate an ingame event that effects others range of actions without there being any chance to counter it if you are flying large ships.

It seems like CCP instead of giving solutions just give up.... A simple delay when logging on in space should be easy to implement, just 2 mins on the log in point would do alot to remove the problems with login traps. You could counter "reverse ganking" with a automatic cloaking like when you use a gate, and add protection from probes. This would buy anyone in the system when a log in occours more than 2 mins of time to react, and maybe even give the servers time to respond to the sudden jump in population.

I am trully disappointed in CCP on this one single occasion, never seem them shy away from going in and solving stuff - at least eventually.

Old Beta Player, back on a new lease of life - loving all the changes, but this one decision just leaves me confused.


Look, it is lame, but what can you do?
CCP can't really define people's choice of when to play as an exploit.
They already have a mechanism in place to mitigate the adverse effects of most log-on traps. If they further expand upon this they risk hurting the majority of players in some way simply to clamp down on the activities of a very small (lame) minority. Ultimately game mechanic solutions fail because players are adaptive.

The current situation is not ideal, but what to do?
If you want to make logging on an exploit, what about logging off?
If the freighter pilot logged off as soon as he saw his enemies logging on he would probably surive - would that not be equally as bad?

Selena Sellion
Posted - 2006.01.24 11:10:00 - [99]
 

Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Selena Sellion

Right.. so you admit its lame, know it causes problems and is uncounterrable. And yet you offer no justifcation for it not being an exploit. WTF?


So, by the same arguement insta-jumps should be banned (at least in empire space where they are definately uncounterable), yes?
I agree, let's do it.


Insta jumps arnt lame. Insta jumps arnt Out of Game. Insta jumps ARE counterable (just jump through with them and get them on the other side).

Insta jumps dont result in the victim dying. Insta jumps use a planned game mechanic the way it was intended to be use (albeit for a different reason).

Honestly, arguing with you is harder than (and strangely similar to) making a handicapped kid stop eating paste.

Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.01.24 11:16:00 - [100]
 

Originally by: Oveur
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Turin
Edited by: Turin on 23/01/2006 17:56:05
Actually, i thought it WAS considerd an exploit. I have read that several times here on the forums. Report them. The names of the people, the system it took place in, and the time they logged in.

It stopped being an exploit when you no longer logged in exactly where you logged off.

Quote:

And people who do it are lame as hell.


Agreed.

Nuff said.


Nuff said ?

Are you serious ?
That attitude is why I dont play anymore Oveur. It's what makes you look lazy and unwilling or incapable of solving some issues, or to even see them.

It's the same thing as the macro debate, the research lottery thing, abusing the petition system, handling of long standing bugs and imbalances.

Your reaction time to alot of things is horrendous and when you react you post stuff like this ?

Did you actually read the thread ?
Rolling Eyes

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2006.01.24 11:18:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: Selena Sellion

Insta jumps arnt lame. Insta jumps arnt Out of Game. Insta jumps ARE counterable (just jump through with them and get them on the other side).


Yes they are lame.
Catching people on the other side isn't a counter to an insta, it applies almost equally to everyone*
(*almost because in fact people who use instas are still at an advantage. They can fill their lows with nano's and stabs - no need for overdrives for that lick of speed to get to the gate faster)
Quote:

Insta jumps dont result in the victim dying.


No, they result in people not dying. Not due to clever ship fitting, skills, logistics, planning, or teamwork; but rather by using a game mechanic in a way it was not intended
Quote:

Insta jumps use a planned game mechanic the way it was intended to be use (albeit for a different reason).


It can't be used as intended but for a different reason. Either it is intended use or it isn't.
Using a bookmark to create an insta-jump, bypassing the warp game mechanics, is not an intended use.
Quote:

Honestly, arguing with you is harder than (and strangely similar to) making a handicapped kid stop eating paste.

Thanks for the flame, I hope the mods notice.

Tachy
Posted - 2006.01.24 11:19:00 - [102]
 

@Oveur:
Your remark can be read in two ways:
1) It is okay to set log-in/lag-out traps.
2) It is lame to set log-in/lag-out traps.

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2006.01.24 11:20:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: Rod Blaine

Nuff said ?

Are you serious ?
That attitude is why I dont play anymore Oveur. It's what makes you look lazy and unwilling or incapable of solving some issues, or to even see them.

It's the same thing as the macro debate, the research lottery thing, abusing the petition system, handling of long standing bugs and imbalances.

Your reaction time to alot of things is horrendous and when you react you post stuff like this ?

Did you actually read the thread ?
Rolling Eyes


Sometimes Rod you just have to accept that the problem is more desireable than the potential solutions.

If there is an easy way to fix this I'm sure we'll stumble across it eventually.
Wink

Malka Badi'a
Doomheim
Posted - 2006.01.24 11:21:00 - [104]
 

Edited by: Malka Badi''a on 24/01/2006 11:23:44
I support the logoff/logon tactic until it is officially banned an exploit.

Might as we use the mechanics (even if unintentional) of the game while others don't.

Miramax
Gallente
Lack Of Inspiration
Posted - 2006.01.24 11:21:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: Oveur
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Turin
Edited by: Turin on 23/01/2006 17:56:05
Actually, i thought it WAS considerd an exploit. I have read that several times here on the forums. Report them. The names of the people, the system it took place in, and the time they logged in.

It stopped being an exploit when you no longer logged in exactly where you logged off.

Quote:

And people who do it are lame as hell.


Agreed.

Nuff said.


ugh


Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2006.01.24 11:23:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: Tachy
@Oveur:
Your remark can be read in two ways:
1) It is okay to set log-in/lag-out traps.
2) It is lame to set log-in/lag-out traps.


The two are not mutually exclusive.

It is okay to rob a corp, but it is also lame.
It is okay to scam people, but it is also lame.
It is okay to ... gah, you get the picture.

Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.01.24 11:24:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: Tachy
@Oveur:
Your remark can be read in two ways:
1) It is okay to set log-in/lag-out traps.
2) It is lame to set log-in/lag-out traps.


It's both.

He said it's lame, but it's ok to use since we can't be arsed to think harder about solving it. It's not a priority problem and they (CCP) sadly enough have the staff to handle only 20% of the problems that exist within a period normally associated with the lifetime of an average cat.

Ergo, like many things, the problem will remain unsolved, not looked at, and generally ignored because of a lack of manpower.


Fine, but then post it, and dont wuss out using a quote and "nuff said". You're no longer a hobbyist turned game designer, you are a professional running part of a multti-million dollar business. I suggest you start acting it and stop treating those that go out of their way to be good customers that are glad to lend a hand when asked like children that should just stfu and listen.

Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
Posted - 2006.01.24 11:25:00 - [108]
 

rod, what could be done has been done, any more game mechanics changes would hurt the honest peeps too much compaired to the problem. Doesn't excuse the lameness, but how far can you go with regards to when people decide to play the game? Ban them cause they all decide to play again at the same time that's insane... making log on traps not work cause you end up even further from log off point then you do now won't do much. Making you log on in a system next door. Causing the carebear that CTDs log on again in pf-346.... well you can guess the effects of that.

Come up with a VALID solution and maybe, but until then...

GigaIndy
Gigacorp
Posted - 2006.01.24 11:25:00 - [109]
 

God of eve and thats you got to say? Ovuer im disapointed :(

As for Instas, yes yes they need removed, so does local. But this is not the thread for ethier of those.

Log trappers need banned, simple as that.

You undock, you fight someone, 5 people log in, they kill you, you cry like a little girl, while the GMs laugh at you.

Thats what log on traps do :(

Izo Azlion
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2006.01.24 11:26:00 - [110]
 

When 9/11 happened, and everyone found out it was a terrorist in the pilots seat, 2 miles from the tower, they didnt have a countermeasure too.

What did they do, go, "OMG WTF EXPLOIT!"?

No, I believe they didnt, they just waited a little, and kicked the crap out of them slightly later.


Not everything has to be fair.

Malka Badi'a
Doomheim
Posted - 2006.01.24 11:28:00 - [111]
 

Edited by: Malka Badi''a on 24/01/2006 11:27:48
Quote:
Not everything has to be fair.
Fly safe
QFT and irony.

Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.01.24 11:29:00 - [112]
 

Edited by: Rod Blaine on 24/01/2006 11:32:07
nm

Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
Posted - 2006.01.24 11:30:00 - [113]
 

Senior producer != god.... real life comparisons != good.... and flames != productive and Rod = cranky as hell

Snake Jankins
Minmatar
German Cyberdome Corp
Cult of War
Posted - 2006.01.24 11:32:00 - [114]
 

Edited by: Snake Jankins on 24/01/2006 11:33:22
Originally by: Gonada
war isnt about fairness, war isnt about honor, both these are terms resulting in a carebears attempts to gain an equal footing in a often harsh universe.


It's not a valid tactics, because if your are not logged on, the ship isn't there and when you log-in it reappears magically in attack range which is totally illogical in that world.
Cloaking is meant to make your ship invisible in combat, but it has drawbacks and your ship is still in space. But there is no login-device that's part of the game world, or do you think Jove invented it and use it themselves as a war tactics ?

So login traps are exploiting the mechanism that's meant to protect your ship while you aren't online, nothing more. Ships aren't meant to magically disappear in space, it's only there to allow going off-line in space at any time without negative consequences. Using this to fight is an abuse of a game mechanics.

Robacz
Essence Enterprises
Posted - 2006.01.24 11:34:00 - [115]
 

I agree its lame if used as tactic, but how can you make it an exploit? Its impossible to tell where it was a trap and where ppl just called their friends for help. I mean, you can have 10 corp members docked in system stations and logged off, but they can be on RL phone or on some IM crap, other person call them for help so they log in and they are almost instantly on the battlefield. Is that expliot? If EVE was real, they could be just sleeping in system's stations and corp mates woke them up for fight... Its impossible to say what was setup and what not imho, so it can not be called as an exploit. + AFAIK when you log off and login back, you appear on other place, at least I always did. You should be prepared that there can be reserves which can be called to fight if needed....

eLLioTT wave
Art of War
Posted - 2006.01.24 11:35:00 - [116]
 

what about if you log off / get disconnected your ship flys to the nearest freindly station and docks?

any drawbacks?

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2006.01.24 11:36:00 - [117]
 

Rod.

If you just define it as an exploit then everyone and his dog will petition every loss that included someone entering local.
We both know that is true, some people will petition anything.

If you look for a game mechanic solution to what has become an issue (because of the slow warps of some ships), it needs to be carefully thought out.

Personally, whilst I think the whole thing sucks, I don't really see where to go with it.

If we are pragmatic we have to face the fact that in all honesty a log on trap shouldn't really be that much of an issue.
We are talking about a situation where a freighter has to make a long jump through a low security system without an insta - or with an insta but taking so long that the enemy have time to log on, warp in, and deploy a bubble.
What is more, the enemy fleet has to do this without the freighter pilot noticing, because if he logs off when they log in they probably won't have enough time to kill him (no PvP timer because he wouldn't be online when aggression starts).

All of the above is before we factor in the fact that the freighter should have an adequate escort, and the route should have been scouted.

Now, it may be that this happens a lot more than I would imagine, in which case it may be a very valid concern, but is it currently worthy of action?

Probably not.

Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.01.24 11:36:00 - [118]
 

Yeah i'm cranky.

But, just to make one thing clear.

If I disagree with a dev I damn well let him know. That's what these forums are for.

But yeah, cranky.
Their own doing tho.

Malka Badi'a
Doomheim
Posted - 2006.01.24 11:38:00 - [119]
 


Butter Dog
Gallente
The Monocled Elite
Posted - 2006.01.24 11:42:00 - [120]
 

Am I missing something here?

How is this any different to a bunch of people waiting on the other side of a gate for a warp-in point from a covert ops?

They all enter the system immediately and warp to the covert ops. It takes the same length of time to warp to the target as logging-in and warping. The lag is the same too.

For that reason I totally fail to see why it should be an exploit.


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