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blankseplocked CCP: Why is a Log-on Trap not an Exploit?
 
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Gungankllr
Caldari
Hard Rock Mining Co.
Territorial Claim Unit
Posted - 2006.01.24 00:43:00 - [61]
 

I think it would be great if your ships were persistent in space unless you claim Soverignity.

/emote braces for the boo-hooing

Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.01.24 00:45:00 - [62]
 

The onlyuse of logontraps I would class as exploit even now is when you use it in an system of extreme size.

Example: log off your gang on top of a gate, use an alt at the incoming gate to select the target, then log on your gang when the target enters warp.

As long as your targets warp is above 100au and his ship is slow, you can get to that gate before he does, without him having any option to stop his ship. He's already in warp and there is nothing he can do expect log off.


Apart form that, there's always the 20-30 seconds of warning you should have when your enemies log in and you see local go up. 20-30 seconds is enough time to enter warp no matter what ship you use. So unless you warp right into theior arms there's littel reason to die.

And that is also the reason CCP gave us when they told us its allright ot use logintraps now.

Selena Sellion
Posted - 2006.01.24 00:52:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Rod Blaine
The onlyuse of logontraps I would class as exploit even now is when you use it in an system of extreme size.

Example: log off your gang on top of a gate, use an alt at the incoming gate to select the target, then log on your gang when the target enters warp.

As long as your targets warp is above 100au and his ship is slow, you can get to that gate before he does, without him having any option to stop his ship. He's already in warp and there is nothing he can do expect log off.


Apart form that, there's always the 20-30 seconds of warning you should have when your enemies log in and you see local go up. 20-30 seconds is enough time to enter warp no matter what ship you use. So unless you warp right into theior arms there's littel reason to die.

And that is also the reason CCP gave us when they told us its allright ot use logintraps now.



Such as in the actual (petition failed) Freighter example I gave?

Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.01.24 01:02:00 - [64]
 

Probably yeah.

Porblem being they (CCP) are either unwilling or not familiar enough with gameplay, to instruct their GM's in detail.

If they would, then this is so damn abviously a good poi to do it on, would it not ?

But, in the mean time, the GM's only have a very simple code: it's 'No' by default and yes once every five times at random.

Nah, more seriously, we all know how it works, it's not always good. There's clearly a lack of game experience and an overload of work when it comes to customer service regarding ingame issues like these. The GM's and CCP simply dont have time to put effort into something that would be fairer and more correct.

Pity isn't it ?

GigaIndy
Gigacorp
Posted - 2006.01.24 01:14:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Gonada
Edited by: Gonada on 23/01/2006 21:04:53
what happens when you log off in space?
when you re-enter the game, you warp to your last position.

if your in a station, you waste 15-20 secs undocking.

tell me that this is different than say, some ppl warping into a system from another.

in each case there a given set of time that a person will pick up the additional unfriendlies, and time to act.

is it CCP's fault that you dont constantly scan local?
i think not.

war isnt about fairness, war isnt about honor, both these are terms resulting in a carebears attempts to gain an equal footing in a often harsh universe.

like it or not, thats how it is

----------------------------------------
ohh,
Make it when they logon they stay on that safespot and are unable to move for couple of minutes. "wakeup timer" or call it "ship recalibration timer".

Another game mechanic exploit removed
-------------------------------------------

this is rather silly, and i can think of 3 ways this could be exploited right off the bat, think about it.







Silly silly rabit.


You can scout other system, You can have intel, you can know where the enemy is, you can know who is online, and who isnt online.

Now when 20 people log in, from nowhere. No way to scout them, they just appear. Your screwd.

People also say, Well you got time to warp when your scanning local.
What if your fighting something and scrambled?

What if your lock down by some ints, then you see 10 battleships log in. What are you to do? Cant warp away. Your tackled.

Exploit it is, CCP remove please :(

Pepperami
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2006.01.24 01:17:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: captain Donkey
Edited by: captain Donkey on 23/01/2006 23:10:06
people can sense lag 5 jumps away when -v- is coming ITS A FACT. after the BM exploit came up on the forums -v- started to lose more ships Rolling Eyes and the trolling on the forums and the cries come for -v- now lets cry about log on traps now.. it seems to be more popular. what will be the next whine... Razz fun to all

here are some crackers.

ps this is my main. next


It's not a fact, it's not true, it's rediculous.. What on earth do you think people do? Copy bookmarks endlessly? Have you really thought this through?

Also V has not lost more ships since RA whines appeared.. Example: 100RA jump on 50-V-, who's left standing.. Oh, the V guys :| Funnily enough, when RA jumped in my screen didn't load for 10minutes.. Could it be RA were copying bookmarks? Or maybe, just maybe, the servers just couldn't handle it? I'm not about to cry about situation that is simply to do with the server hardware, rather than mounting a stupid propaganda campaign on something that is completely void of evidence. (in layman's terms: Proof or stfu)

So your main is in a noob corp.. Well, Uhm, you seem to know a lot about a war you're not involved in.. Or are you believing what your "friends" are telling you? Just how are you getting this info? Wink

As for log in traps, It's incredibly lame and does deserve discussion and IMO it should be an exploit, just like BM copying, in both cases if ANYONE is caught doing it I'd support at least a temporary ban on them.

Now pls, continue your ludicrous trolling..

GigaIndy
Gigacorp
Posted - 2006.01.24 01:19:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Rod Blaine
The onlyuse of logontraps I would class as exploit even now is when you use it in an system of extreme size.

Example: log off your gang on top of a gate, use an alt at the incoming gate to select the target, then log on your gang when the target enters warp.

As long as your targets warp is above 100au and his ship is slow, you can get to that gate before he does, without him having any option to stop his ship. He's already in warp and there is nothing he can do expect log off.


Apart form that, there's always the 20-30 seconds of warning you should have when your enemies log in and you see local go up. 20-30 seconds is enough time to enter warp no matter what ship you use. So unless you warp right into theior arms there's littel reason to die.

And that is also the reason CCP gave us when they told us its allright ot use logintraps now.



And what happens, when your 1v1ing a battleship for example. You run into someone on a gate, a fight starts, your scrambled. and omgwtfzor 4 hacs log in and kill you?

Login traps are used in much smaller scales as well

Dahin
Maza Nostra
HELL4S
Posted - 2006.01.24 01:29:00 - [68]
 

I think the logon trap is a counter for the actual no-brainer: local.
Local is so stupidly overpowered in intelligence terms that is an "I don't loose" button by itself.
All you need is a scout to fly ahead and see who is in the next local. Pretty simple isn't it? It doesn't take any time at all.
So the only way to counter this extreme sillyness is to pull a logon trap. Bored of people simply logging off when they know you're in the next system?
Bored of people not engaging you when they count your numbers and find you to be at least a match for them?
Logon trap...

A better solution would be to totally remove local (for the 10e+5'th time) and add a 1-minute timer to login.

Disclaimer: I've never been part of a logon trap party nor have I ever been attacked by one.

Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2006.01.24 01:30:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: GigaIndy


And what happens, when your 1v1ing a battleship for example. You run into someone on a gate, a fight starts, your scrambled. and omgwtfzor 4 hacs log in and kill you?

Login traps are used in much smaller scales as well


That's why methinks this should be discussed further and have some solutions to address this problem. If EvE == PvP, then in the long run, it will hurt EvE and CCP.


Durethia
Blackwater USA Inc.
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2006.01.24 02:09:00 - [70]
 


The only solution I like in regards to the log/on log/off tactics to generate lag for your opponent is for CCP to simply ban all who are involved with executing the exploit.

But, there are ways to cheat so to compensate for loss due to CCP turning their back on sinister exploitation. I wonder if CCP would be hypocrites in banning those taking such recourse.

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.01.24 02:24:00 - [71]
 

Edited by: j0sephine on 24/01/2006 02:24:10

"All you need is a scout to fly ahead and see who is in the next local. Pretty simple isn't it? It doesn't take any time at all.
So the only way to counter this extreme sillyness is to pull a logon trap. Bored of people simply logging off when they know you're in the next system?
Bored of people not engaging you when they count your numbers and find you to be at least a match for them?
Logon trap..."


Because the alternative idea of putting part of your forces in systems behind the one a scout will check on their way, or off-route, so that they'll only see small part of it during their "scan the next system" run before it's too late... is just too complicated to think of.

Harry Voyager
Jolly Codgers
Posted - 2006.01.24 04:11:00 - [72]
 

Ok, final solution: Instanced Battlegrounds

Here's the drill: first each group on side bids a number and weight of ships. Who ever bids the fewest ships get to fight for their side, on each team. The side with the lowest nubmers/tonnage gets a bonus to effectiveness, proportional to how out tonned/gunned they are.

Once the bidding is done, both sides clearly and explicitly describe what ships they have, the fittings, and the skillpoints and distributions. Both forces are given a day to digest the data, and then are teleported to the instanced battleground with the forces separated by the average of their module engagement ranges. After a ten minute invulnerability/immobility period (to allow for complete loading), each side is permitted to manuver and open fire. Neither side can warp or use Micro Warp Drives, until one side or the other is defeated, at which point both forces have their ships repaired, and are teleported back to their home systems, and the winner gains controll of the system in question.

Winning doesn't have to involve simply destroying the enemy fleet; it can revolve around retreiving targets, destroying the other sides Instanced Battleground installations, or even escorting a friendly ship to a specific destination, while trying to destroy the enemy's escorted ship. The possibilities are literally endless.

The question is, is that what Eve should be about?

Harry Voyager

Noriath
Posted - 2006.01.24 04:50:00 - [73]
 

Why are logging exploits regarded as a valid strategy?
The same reason why drones not following commands is a feature: CCP doesn't know how to fix it.

BobDole573
Posted - 2006.01.24 05:05:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Noriath
Why are logging exploits regarded as a valid strategy?
The same reason why drones not following commands is a feature: CCP doesn't know how to fix it.


Point and match

Fenris Wolfe
Blazing Saddles
Spaceballs The Alliance
Posted - 2006.01.24 05:53:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Harry Voyager
Ok, final solution: Instanced Battlegrounds
Here's the drill: first each group on side bids a number and weight of ships. Who ever bids the fewest ships get to fight for their side, on each team. The side with the lowest nubmers/tonnage gets a bonus to effectiveness, proportional to how out tonned/gunned they are.



Wow... right out of the Wolf Clan/Jade Falcon sourcebook... now if only i could remember the name of that bidding system. Cool concept for MW, but IMHO, not the best idea for Eve.

Anyways, m' 2isk: I somehow compare the logon attacks to the variant of the IRL 1st generation paratrooper. (Boom, you're here... now stay alive... now all of you show up at once and fight) Poor analogy, but has some similarities. Somewhat simpleminded in regards to tactics, but logistically speaking, if everythings in the same area its hella easier than having to worry about ammo/supplies/personell - they're either there to log in or not.

So my vote, as a concept <shrug> not a 'splot. Although, if the sole reasoning behind the tactic is to do nothing but lagkill a general area, i'd say make the offending parties go ishyshquishygooey in horrid manners repeatedly.

Noriath
Posted - 2006.01.24 07:05:00 - [76]
 

If you want to pop out at your enemy from out of nowhere bring a cloak, not teamspeak.

eLLioTT wave
Art of War
Posted - 2006.01.24 07:31:00 - [77]
 

/Signed

Definately an exploit, especially when used to create intentional lag in order to trap them.

Terradoct
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.01.24 08:07:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: eLLioTT wave
/Signed

Definately an exploit, especially when used to create intentional lag in order to trap them.


It doesn't creat lag, it your buddy list that is full of all pilots of enemy ally, and whn they lagin the same time you are laged, and it's not there fault it your fault, creal out your buddy list.

Darcuese
Destructive Influence
KenZoku
Posted - 2006.01.24 08:23:00 - [79]
 

Well, it would be funny if every person that log of in space (log of with ESC and QUIT buttons) could be randomly put 10 jumps away next time they log inTwisted EvilTwisted Evil.

So, no log of traps anymore....and those that need to log of because of RL issue could be scouted by friends if they want to come home safely.

Safety is only in station or POS.Razz

Mnengli Noiliffe
Posted - 2006.01.24 08:27:00 - [80]
 

one 10 pages thread advocates removal of local, other thead that certtainly will grow to 10 pages advocates removal of "exploit" which is in fact just a workaround of local.

Man I do feel for the devs..

But in fact the obvious solution to this "exploit" would be - don't remove a player from local when he logs off. Leave him there for say 10 minutes, but tag him as offline in the local list. Somehow.

Easy eh?

Darcuese
Destructive Influence
KenZoku
Posted - 2006.01.24 08:28:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Terradoct


It doesn't creat lag, it your buddy list that is full of all pilots of enemy ally, and whn they lagin the same time you are laged, and it's not there fault it your fault, creal out your buddy list.


SO, it would be fair to clear all buddy list (TAB IN PLL and PLACES) just so ppl could use log of/in tactic with less lag?Rolling EyesRolling Eyes.

Brain is there to think with and not for making your head heavyRazz

Chuck Noriss
Posted - 2006.01.24 08:28:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Vegeir
I always thought giving covert ops frigates the ability to scan for warp trail signatures or something would be nice. Let you go to where someone logged off and wait for them to come back.



you people seem to forget that sometimes, especially on crappy ISPs, one disconnects for legitimate reasons. Therefore, this won't be implemented.

if it was implemented i'd have to give you pirates a good ol' round-house kick to the cranium ugh


Terradoct
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.01.24 08:40:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Darcuese
Originally by: Terradoct


It doesn't creat lag, it your buddy list that is full of all pilots of enemy ally, and whn they lagin the same time you are laged, and it's not there fault it your fault, creal out your buddy list.


SO, it would be fair to clear all buddy list (TAB IN PLL and PLACES) just so ppl could use log of/in tactic with less lag?Rolling EyesRolling Eyes.

Brain is there to think with and not for making your head heavyRazz



Learn to read, and turn off you sarcasm button

Darcuese
Destructive Influence
KenZoku
Posted - 2006.01.24 08:49:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Terradoct

Learn to read, and turn off you sarcasm button


Ok...I cut stuff so post could be shorter.
With this quote you answered to it doeas make different perspective

Originally by: Terradoct
Originally by: eLLioTT wave
/Signed

Definately an exploit, especially when used to create intentional lag in order to trap them.


It doesn't creat lag, it your buddy list that is full of all pilots of enemy ally, and whn they lagin the same time you are laged, and it's not there fault it your fault, creal out your buddy list.


SO, again....ppl should clear their buddy list for goody old logofsky trap could be usedRolling Eyes

Terradoct
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.01.24 08:52:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Darcuese
Originally by: Terradoct

Learn to read, and turn off you sarcasm button


Ok...I cut stuff so post could be shorter.
With this quote you answered to it doeas make different perspective

Originally by: Terradoct
Originally by: eLLioTT wave
/Signed

Definately an exploit, especially when used to create intentional lag in order to trap them.


It doesn't creat lag, it your buddy list that is full of all pilots of enemy ally, and whn they lagin the same time you are laged, and it's not there fault it your fault, creal out your buddy list.


SO, again....ppl should clear their buddy list for goody old logofsky trap could be usedRolling Eyes


There is no need to add all and every enemy pilots' you encouter to buddy list. Try add only key persons like fleet commanders and known gang leaders.

CCP Oveur

Posted - 2006.01.24 09:02:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Turin
Edited by: Turin on 23/01/2006 17:56:05
Actually, i thought it WAS considerd an exploit. I have read that several times here on the forums. Report them. The names of the people, the system it took place in, and the time they logged in.

It stopped being an exploit when you no longer logged in exactly where you logged off.

Quote:

And people who do it are lame as hell.


Agreed.

Nuff said.

Xaarist
FinFleet
Raiden.
Posted - 2006.01.24 09:08:00 - [87]
 

Edited by: Xaarist on 24/01/2006 09:08:39
Oveur, i am truly sorry, but can your post be interpreted as:

it is lame, but it is allowed.

and

it may cause lag, but it is still allowed, although causing lag by a determined measure is considered an exploit?

/me confused.

Darcuese
Destructive Influence
KenZoku
Posted - 2006.01.24 09:11:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Terradoct
There is no need to add all and every enemy pilots' you encouter to buddy list. Try add only key persons like fleet commanders and known gang leaders.


Listen, I have cleared my buddy list so i could have less lag. The point im trying to make is that buddy list should be what the name say (list with your buddies).

Because of fights it is lot easier to put hostile corps in your buddy list so you could easely check local resident to find them or not without searchig through players info.
And , offcourse, for that purpose buddy list should be renamed Hostile listLaughing.

Because its still buddy list it should be really only for your friends.

And from that aspect you are right....ppl should clear their buddy list and will have less lag probably...but not because someone else could use lame tactics and then pointing to those "nubs" why they havent clear their buddy list

BobBarker
Posted - 2006.01.24 10:04:00 - [89]
 

Well, Ghostfleets utilize Chicken**** tictacs no matter how you cut it.

I think it would be too difficult to manage by a change in game mechanics without hurting innocent players. i.e. CTD's

But there is no reason that it could not be handled through the use of petitions. Once the current workload evens out CCP could address it quickly. The punishment could be a steep fine imposed upon the violaters.

Telemicus Thrace
Thrace Inc
Posted - 2006.01.24 10:30:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Xaarist
Edited by: Xaarist on 24/01/2006 09:08:39
Oveur, i am truly sorry, but can your post be interpreted as:

it is lame, but it is allowed.

and

it may cause lag, but it is still allowed, although causing lag by a determined measure is considered an exploit?

/me confused.


I don't see any reference to lag in there. I feel pretty confident that Oveur is confirming that what Avon said is true. That being that at one time, in the past, log in traps were an exploit. Now that you don't warp exactly back to where you logged off, in theory giving your target plenty of warning, it is no longer an exploit. However in Avon, Oveur and in fact my opinion this "tactic" is lame.

It's meta-gaming pure and simple. Meta-gaming is for people who simply can't win by playing the game.


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