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blankseplocked CCP: Why is a Log-on Trap not an Exploit?
 
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Lori Carlyle
Posted - 2006.01.23 20:41:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Jennifae
Originally by: Fooball
All is fair in love and war.


meh, same people that logon trap are the same suspects that usually fight only when they can outblob the opposition. Guess that's teh only way they can prevail. weak.



I've NEVER seen a War/Fight/Pub brawl, hell even on eve you do not say "hello i'm invading your space with 6 BS and 2 HAC please undock the same number of ships so we can fight over it" What your asking for is stupid.

Archa
Caldari
Bushwhackers
Rough Necks
Posted - 2006.01.23 20:46:00 - [32]
 

i dont' see why you have to use a tactic wich isn't ment to be used to kill someone.
only shows you can't cope without that tactic.
and makes you a weak pvp corp if you ask me.

Freya Selene
M. Corp
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2006.01.23 20:53:00 - [33]
 

This lameass tactic abuse of game mechanics can be solved easy.

When people logoff they get warped to a safespot.
Make it when they logon they stay on that safespot and are unable to move for couple of minutes. "wakeup timer" or call it "ship recalibration timer".

Another game mechanic exploit removed.

Metal Dude
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2006.01.23 21:00:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Freya Selene
This lameass tactic abuse of game mechanics can be solved easy.

When people logoff they get warped to a safespot.
Make it when they logon they stay on that safespot and are unable to move for couple of minutes. "wakeup timer" or call it "ship recalibration timer".

Another game mechanic exploit removed.


No, because someone can probe you and kill you before you had a chance to warp out.

Better solution is to not allow any guns or mods to be turned on for two minutes after loging in, but give you the ability to move around. Can't have a log in trap if you can't fire.

Gonada
The Scope
Posted - 2006.01.23 21:02:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Gonada on 23/01/2006 21:04:53
what happens when you log off in space?
when you re-enter the game, you warp to your last position.

if your in a station, you waste 15-20 secs undocking.

tell me that this is different than say, some ppl warping into a system from another.

in each case there a given set of time that a person will pick up the additional unfriendlies, and time to act.

is it CCP's fault that you dont constantly scan local?
i think not.

war isnt about fairness, war isnt about honor, both these are terms resulting in a carebears attempts to gain an equal footing in a often harsh universe.

like it or not, thats how it is

----------------------------------------
ohh,
Make it when they logon they stay on that safespot and are unable to move for couple of minutes. "wakeup timer" or call it "ship recalibration timer".

Another game mechanic exploit removed
-------------------------------------------

this is rather silly, and i can think of 3 ways this could be exploited right off the bat, think about it.




Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.01.23 21:10:00 - [36]
 

warping them to the nearest gate/station any good?

Freya Selene
M. Corp
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2006.01.23 21:13:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Gonada
Edited by: Gonada on 23/01/2006 21:04:53
war isnt about fairness, war isnt about honor, both these are terms resulting in a carebears attempts to gain an equal footing in a often harsh universe.


This is a game and i cant believe that logoff/logon is part of the gameplay.

Mr Bright
Shade.
Mercenary Coalition
Posted - 2006.01.23 21:14:00 - [38]
 

Why not add cloak into the picture?

So if you log on in space, you have to wait 2 mins while the ship "wakes up" of "hybernation" or whatever RP reason you want to add. During that time its cloaked and on the randomly created safespot. Afaik this would allow everyone in local 2+ mins of warning time, and at the same time protect the player logging on from probes etc.

Of course this suggestion can be tweaked etc, but its a an idea.


and yes, this is my main - so dont ask for anotehr face behind the messege this is all I got Very Happy

Lori Carlyle
Posted - 2006.01.23 21:17:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Mr Bright
Why not add cloak into the picture?

So if you log on in space, you have to wait 2 mins while the ship "wakes up" of "hybernation" or whatever RP reason you want to add. During that time its cloaked and on the randomly created safespot. Afaik this would allow everyone in local 2+ mins of warning time, and at the same time protect the player logging on from probes etc.

Of course this suggestion can be tweaked etc, but its a an idea.


and yes, this is my main - so dont ask for anotehr face behind the messege this is all I got Very Happy


Best idea yet... unless the splat local

Scalor Valentis
Minmatar
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.01.23 21:21:00 - [40]
 

Im not saying that "login traps" are fine (there is no login traps acording CCP). But neither is ALL SEING, ALL KNOWING, ALL MIGHTY LOCAL CHAT that pretty much is idiot proof tool to tell even ******s that there is hostiles in system.

Rolling Eyes

Selena Sellion
Posted - 2006.01.23 21:36:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Mr Bright
Why not add cloak into the picture?

So if you log on in space, you have to wait 2 mins while the ship "wakes up" of "hybernation" or whatever RP reason you want to add. During that time its cloaked and on the randomly created safespot. Afaik this would allow everyone in local 2+ mins of warning time, and at the same time protect the player logging on from probes etc.

Of course this suggestion can be tweaked etc, but its a an idea.


and yes, this is my main - so dont ask for anotehr face behind the messege this is all I got Very Happy


I quite like this idea. At the end of 2mins it warps back in as normal.

Selena Sellion
Posted - 2006.01.23 21:37:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Scalor Valentis
Im not saying that "login traps" are fine (there is no login traps acording CCP). But neither is ALL SEING, ALL KNOWING, ALL MIGHTY LOCAL CHAT that pretty much is idiot proof tool to tell even ******s that there is hostiles in system.

Rolling Eyes


how does that help you if you are in warp in a frieghter going 0.1au/sec towards the gate where theyve all just logged on

Freya Selene
M. Corp
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2006.01.23 21:42:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Mr Bright
Why not add cloak into the picture?

So if you log on in space, you have to wait 2 mins while the ship "wakes up" of "hybernation" or whatever RP reason you want to add. During that time its cloaked and on the randomly created safespot. Afaik this would allow everyone in local 2+ mins of warning time, and at the same time protect the player logging on from probes etc.

Of course this suggestion can be tweaked etc, but its a an idea.


and yes, this is my main - so dont ask for anotehr face behind the messege this is all I got Very Happy


/signed.

Make it unable to probe those that logon during there "cloak" timer.

Lifewire
TunDraGon
Posted - 2006.01.23 21:51:00 - [44]
 

Logoff-traps = lame.

Donīt worry if you got victim of a log off trap. Just imagine how 50 idiots were starring at their login-screen for 3 hours until they could log in. 50 carebears that are not able to nail you with standard EVE PVP and need to hide "in the bushes" for 3 hours until you, the free and proud EVE player came along. This is so funny that you will be the mental winner.

Grant Smith
Malum.
Darklings
Posted - 2006.01.23 21:57:00 - [45]
 

log on tactic suck a$$ Wink

Uncauzi
Gallente
No Trademark
Auctorita Alliance
Posted - 2006.01.23 22:05:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Uncauzi on 23/01/2006 22:06:12
How about just add an anon feature where, if used, you don't show up on local?

It's obvious it's Local that's causing people to have to log off.

Make the anon work for friends lists, too, so people can't add entire Corps to their buddylists.

captain Donkey
Amarr
Doomheim
Posted - 2006.01.23 22:05:00 - [47]
 

wow alot of crying over this lately. like it was said before. sucks when the other side doesn't play fair. but when the BM exploit came up -v- all jumped on and said we don't we don't blame ccp.. well do the same here than. Rolling Eyesugh

Trak Cranker
Finn Inc
Posted - 2006.01.23 22:06:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Syrec
Originally by: Trak Cranker
And how are you going to tell the difference between knowingly closing the app and disconnecting for some other reason?


When 100 people from the same corp log off within 30 seconds of each other, and then log on within 30 seconds of each other and immediately start destroying enemies, it becomes rather obvious.. don't you think?


Actually, you only need to see 80% of the hostiles logging off and you will know. Example, 10 hostiles and suddenly, 8 hostiles log-off.


How about we derail that comment even further? I wasn't questioning the ability for a GM to assess whether there was in fact an organized login movement taking place. Context to my question was pretty clear I should think.

I was questioning the invention of a log out penalty, because of this.
Cause I sure as hell am not going to wait ten minues to log back in, if my app just crashes or I accidently hit ctrl-q.

Haematite
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.01.23 22:11:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
1. Put a logoff timer. Each time you log-off disconnected, there is a delay of 10 minutes before you can login. A bit annoying but wont load their servers much.





So will their be a way for the server to tell between a log off/Crash/CTD or whatever.

I for one would not like to wait 10 mins to log in after a CTD etc to find my gang or a trader etc I was going to meet has move along and done business else where :/

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire


2. Increase PvP timer in 0.0 space or generally to 30 minutes or 1 hour. They can logoff but wont be safe for a while.




Hmm now thats quite a tasty one, but supposing the ppl logging off dont have PvP timer.

Uncauzi
Gallente
No Trademark
Auctorita Alliance
Posted - 2006.01.23 22:13:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Trak Cranker

I was questioning the invention of a log out penalty, because of this.
Cause I sure as hell am not going to wait ten minues to log back in, if my app just crashes or I accidently hit ctrl-q.



Aye. If it was enacted, we'd see hell unleash on this messageboard. A log in penalty is just a bad idea for the game and hurts PvP in my opinion.

Look at why people do it....because Local ruins a lot of chances for ambushes/surprises/makes the game easy.

Look at the simple solutions first...an /anon that makes you disappear from Local and also from anyones Buddy List.

What happens..a lot more fluid wars ;).

Tachy
Posted - 2006.01.23 22:38:00 - [51]
 

Okay. Let's do a short overview.

Trolling: Won by pro mass-logging
constructivity: Won by contra mass-logging

How about limiting logging in to one pilot per 10 seconds per system, coupled with placing the pilots within 5 AU from the point where they left space? I don't think a pod would just stop the ship dead in its tracks when the pilot starts loosing consciousness. Emotional stress probably would wreck havok on the small scale navigational ablities.

If someone crashes, 'accidently hits ctrl-q', gets disconnected by his ISP, whatever, he'll be back within a few seconds.
Disruptive mass logins would be impossible. Offensive use of out-of-game tactics would be countered.

Corp Scammer
Posted - 2006.01.23 22:42:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Tachy
Okay. Let's do a short overview.

Trolling: Won by pro mass-logging
constructivity: Won by contra mass-logging

How about limiting logging in to one pilot per 10 seconds per system, coupled with placing the pilots within 5 AU from the point where they left space? I don't think a pod would just stop the ship dead in its tracks when the pilot starts loosing consciousness. Emotional stress probably would wreck havok on the small scale navigational ablities.

If someone crashes, 'accidently hits ctrl-q', gets disconnected by his ISP, whatever, he'll be back within a few seconds.
Disruptive mass logins would be impossible. Offensive use of out-of-game tactics would be countered.



small problem with 10 sec log ins its as slow as it is now - if it is such a problem then leaving pilots that log off in space longer ? but then that leaves em exposed to NPCs as well not much that can be done i dont think except where it is blatant petition CCP they can see ingame actions etc ayway.

Pepperami
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2006.01.23 22:59:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: captain Donkey
wow alot of crying over this lately. like it was said before. sucks when the other side doesn't play fair. but when the BM exploit came up -v- all jumped on and said we don't we don't blame ccp.. well do the same here than. Rolling Eyesugh


What BM exploit? Proof or stfu.

The only killmail with BMs that I have seen is an RA one.. and that was posted on the forums. Repeatingly spouting your rubbish accomplishes what? I am yet to see ANY evidence of activities involving bookmarks and -v- members, and it has been stated if anyone uses such tactics they will be kicked..

So again, proof or stfu.

Oh and post with your main (didn't know royal amarr institute were in RA..)

captain Donkey
Amarr
Doomheim
Posted - 2006.01.23 23:07:00 - [54]
 

Edited by: captain Donkey on 23/01/2006 23:10:06
people can sense lag 5 jumps away when -v- is coming ITS A FACT. after the BM exploit came up on the forums -v- started to lose more ships Rolling Eyes and the trolling on the forums and the cries come for -v- now lets cry about log on traps now.. it seems to be more popular. what will be the next whine... Razz fun to all

here are some crackers.

ps this is my main. next

Mishima
Dark-Rising
Fallen Souls
Posted - 2006.01.23 23:15:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Mishima on 23/01/2006 23:15:04
add to map: pilots currently offline in space last 6hours

Skipsta
Posted - 2006.01.24 00:00:00 - [56]
 

Well I find it pretty shocking that these kind of "tatics" are permitted. CPP really should come down hard on this sort of thing, it really flys in the face of what reasonable people expect combat in a game like Eve to be about.

Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2006.01.24 00:07:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Trak Cranker

How about we derail that comment even further? I wasn't questioning the ability for a GM to assess whether there was in fact an organized login movement taking place. Context to my question was pretty clear I should think.

I was questioning the invention of a log out penalty, because of this.
Cause I sure as hell am not going to wait ten minues to log back in, if my app just crashes or I accidently hit ctrl-q.



Think ideas are flowing through now. Very Happy

Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2006.01.24 00:09:00 - [58]
 

Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 24/01/2006 00:13:57
Originally by: Haematite
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
1. Put a logoff timer. Each time you log-off disconnected, there is a delay of 10 minutes before you can login. A bit annoying but wont load their servers much.





So will their be a way for the server to tell between a log off/Crash/CTD or whatever.

I for one would not like to wait 10 mins to log in after a CTD etc to find my gang or a trader etc I was going to meet has move along and done business else where :/

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire


2. Increase PvP timer in 0.0 space or generally to 30 minutes or 1 hour. They can logoff but wont be safe for a while.




Hmm now thats quite a tasty one, but supposing the ppl logging off dont have PvP timer.


1. Simple idea. Didnt say it is going to be good.

2. Well, 0.0 is supposed to be a PvP-Arena, why not automatically assign PvP timer everytime you are at 0.0 space? Low-secs/High-secs will remain the same i.e. PvP-timer whenever there is PvP. Even when you log-off, there is still a timer before you really log-off to safety. After what is 0.0 space about... PvP? Dont understand the thing ppl do, fly to 0.0, login, logoff, just to prevent getting killed or hatching a lame strat, etc. If you want PvP, go to 0.0 and PvP. When you want to login in 0.0 space, make sure it is at a station or at a very safe place.

Amerame
Kernel of War
Posted - 2006.01.24 00:17:00 - [59]
 

192 AU probes, or something, should report logged off ship in the system and how long have they been logged off, like Raven <2hours, Megathron <24hours, Tristan >1day.
Or get rid of local in 0.0 then people will not bother logging off, or even better do both at the same time.
If you end up having to wait 15 minutes to be able to do anything with your ship when you log on, it will **** a lot more people than the log traps.

Waldo Barnstormer
Caldari
Unscoped
Posted - 2006.01.24 00:24:00 - [60]
 

Edited by: Waldo Barnstormer on 24/01/2006 00:25:42
Originally by: Freya Selene
When people logoff they get warped to a safespot.
Make it when they logon they stay on that safespot and are unable to move for couple of minutes. "wakeup timer" or call it "ship recalibration timer".



how about JUST weapons are deactivated for 2 mins after log in, IF you log on in space, this way if you just ctd in a mission you can warp to a safe spot and wait

of course, if you log in at a station, the weapons remain online as your ship is plugged in or whatever the hell they do at stations.


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