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blankseplocked CCP: Why is a Log-on Trap not an Exploit?
 
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j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.01.30 09:27:00 - [391]
 

Edited by: j0sephine on 30/01/2006 09:30:30

"However obviously something doesn't have to be universally fun, otherwise all PvP would be consentual."

Of course; and last i checked, running from something and being chased was typically a result of someone trying to force their will on someone else without consent.

Main difference being, if chase actually happens then both involved parties have all time needed to realize the consequences, get their share of adrenaline and whatnot. When one of them gets ganked out of blue in five seconds flat... well, someone gets to miss out.


"Generally speaking chasing down a player is nearly impossible unless you've got several people and one of you's fitted for a lot of ECM (or is using an interdictor) otherwise they'll warp to a stargate and by the time you arrive they're gone, and by the time you get to the other side you won't likely be able to find them before they're out to the next system. While pursuit could be fun the problem is there's no real way to outrun anyone because all warp drives fly you at the same speed (3 A.U./sec max), some just can go farther on less capacitor than others.

As well without the ability to track someone's exact location without them being in your system you cannot possibly cut them off at the pass by navigating around and intercepting them, as you've got no way to track them nor know where they're headed really."


Very well, there's good range of current issues when it comes to chasing people (add to it the difficulty in busting the safe spots due to limitations of current scan probes and few other minor things) ... you can now start thinking how to address them -.^

Just a small point: not all ships warp equal. Some of them like interceptors and cov ops warp much faster than others (9-13.5 au/sec) ... this means as long as you have means to see the direction of your target, you can outrun them and intercept at their destination.

(example of it: i was moving in cruiser along the same route my corp mate was heading, but he was in cov ops. Both of us were using insta-bookmarks. Over the course of two jumps he pulled ahead enough to be near the outbound gate by the time i was jumping in the system he's already in)

Mr Bright
Shade.
Mercenary Coalition
Posted - 2006.01.30 09:28:00 - [392]
 

Edited by: Mr Bright on 30/01/2006 09:29:09
Originally by: Fallout2man
Generally speaking chasing down a player is nearly impossible unless you've got several people and one of you's fitted for a lot of ECM (or is using an interdictor) otherwise they'll warp to a stargate and by the time you arrive they're gone, and by the time you get to the other side you won't likely be able to find them before they're out to the next system. While pursuit could be fun the problem is there's no real way to outrun anyone because all warp drives fly you at the same speed (3 A.U./sec max), some just can go farther on less capacitor than others.


There are a lot of ships with different warp speeds - interceptors being the prime example with two speeds (13.5AU/s and 9AU/s as far as I recall). Heck I am pretty sure HAC's fly at 3.6

Fallout2man
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.01.30 09:35:00 - [393]
 

Originally by: Mr Bright
There are a lot of ships with different warp speeds - interceptors being the prime example with two speeds (13.5AU/s and 9AU/s as far as I recall). Heck I am pretty sure HAC's fly at 3.6


I've flown in several frigates, a destroyer and a cruiser and they all appear to cap out at roughly 3 AU/sec from what I've seen. While some ships like interceptors might be faster I just haven't seen much diversity myself, and really if we get into the whole thing a good idea would be a module (or perhaps part of a proposed custom ships system) to increase the speed of warp some-how, both in max speed and accel/deceleration from a stop.

Fallout2man
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.01.30 09:49:00 - [394]
 

Edited by: Fallout2man on 30/01/2006 09:50:10
Originally by: j0sephine

Of course; and last i checked, running from something and being chased was typically a result of someone trying to force their will on someone else without consent.

Main difference being, if chase actually happens then both involved parties have all time needed to realize the consequences, get their share of adrenaline and whatnot. When one of them gets ganked out of blue in five seconds flat... well, someone gets to miss out.


Point, but overall so far I'd argue stealth has a more prioritative importance than pursuit as far as options go. You're right it's necessary but both ideas seem to require about the same level of radical change to impliment and if this thread is any indication people seem to be complaining more about improvised solutions to lack of stealth than lack of pursuit.

Quote:
Very well, there's good range of current issues when it comes to chasing people (add to it the difficulty in busting the safe spots due to limitations of current scan probes and few other minor things) ... you can now start thinking how to address them -.^


Add modules that speed up warp accel/deceleration, factor it in to any later new R&M custom ship system as a base mod as well, have certain modules weigh down a ship as well as a more variable base warp-speed dependent on the mass of the ship and it's class/model (better models have better engines after all), add a hacking skill that at level five when paired with a special electronics module gives you a (50-75%) chance of success at hacking someone's navcom and downloading their current autopilot route into your computer (they must be in system to hack and the timer only gives you one or two chances at best), paired with a "plot intercept route" button in the navigational window which becomes automatically avaialable to the one who did the hack and/or his/her gang/fleet leader upon possible success, add a "pursue target" action (possibly skill-dependent) which allows you to, while he is within targeting range, follow him even through warps until he somehow escapes your targeting range (other than possible distances during or before/after warps) or jumps out of system, that also allows you to maintain a targeting lock on him until one or the other action causes your pursuit to end.

Quote:
Just a small point: not all ships warp equal. Some of them like interceptors and cov ops warp much faster than others (9-13.5 au/sec) ... this means as long as you have means to see the direction of your target, you can outrun them and intercept at their destination.


As I said earlier I was unaware, while this is nice it needs a tad more...diversity. It'd be nice to fit ships specifically for speed. For instance the Millennium Falcon was just a small cargo boat, yet it was twice as fast as imperial starships with extremely expensive and powerful warp engines by default. So ships should be able to be "retrofitted" for things like this.

Quote:
(example of it: i was moving in cruiser along the same route my corp mate was heading, but he was in cov ops. Both of us were using insta-bookmarks. Over the course of two jumps he pulled ahead enough to be near the outbound gate by the time i was jumping in the system he's already in)


did you both align at the same time? That's the one sad thing, there's no way to align or do a gang/group align to really get a more objective measurement of comparative warp speeds.

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.01.30 10:08:00 - [395]
 

Edited by: j0sephine on 30/01/2006 10:09:30

"You're right it's necessary but both ideas seem to require about the same level of radical change to impliment and if this thread is any indication people seem to be complaining more about improvised solutions to lack of stealth than lack of pursuit."

Think the complaints might take place simply because people don't like being subjected to stealth tactics. Which stems from that aforementioned 'ganked out of blue with no chance to react' factor.

Since enabling both stealth and chase would require similar amount of changes to the game, i'd personally focus on the latter first. Simply because it might give more people entertainment in the end (both involved parties vs one with stealth) meaning more bang for your development buck.

Stealth can still be needed for recon, but that's why i suggested to allow ships which utilize the covert ops cloak to be removed from local. Then you can have exactly that, good recon (with basic tackling, especially with recon cruisers) without handing too much advantage to attackers.

(skipping the chase modules and stuff, since it's probably best to put these in the Ideas forum section ^^;;


"did you both align at the same time? That's the one sad thing, there's no way to align or do a gang/group align to really get a more objective measurement of comparative warp speeds."

No, each of us was doing separate travel, and i had some slight head start (which actually reflects the chase scenario closer when you think about it) ... regarding group align, it's most certainly possible to have whole group aligned and up to speed, meaning all of them warping together at the same moment. Note though, if you do gang warp then it's performed at warp speed of slowest gang member.

Fallout2man
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.01.30 10:49:00 - [396]
 

Originally by: j0sephine
Think the complaints might take place simply because people don't like being subjected to stealth tactics. Which stems from that aforementioned 'ganked out of blue with no chance to react' factor.

Since enabling both stealth and chase would require similar amount of changes to the game, i'd personally focus on the latter first. Simply because it might give more people entertainment in the end (both involved parties vs one with stealth) meaning more bang for your development buck.


Well yeah, I suppose it'd take someone who was keeping score to really tell whether a reduction in complaints via a reduction in un-counterable stealth and less gate ganking would be more bang than the similar results from an increase in exhileration due to a chase. *Shrugs* I'll admit defeat on that.

Quote:
Stealth can still be needed for recon, but that's why i suggested to allow ships which utilize the covert ops cloak to be removed from local. Then you can have exactly that, good recon (with basic tackling, especially with recon cruisers) without handing too much advantage to attackers.


The problem is there's no real easy solution that's entirely fair to either side with this. The "fair" solution would require a lot of time to create an interlocking system of skills, modules and such that when combined with a removal of local-chat as we known it (I liked the original idea of perhaps a constellation wide chat that only showed who had recently spoken as a replacement myself), will give everyone the "potential" to both hide, and if they want to, find those that are hiding to catch or avoid them.

Quote:
(skipping the chase modules and stuff, since it's probably best to put these in the Ideas forum section ^^;;


You asked, I answered, if you want it post that yourself. :p I post in ideas when something strikes my interest, but I rarely care about something enough to make my own thread (though when I have usually what brought it to my attention was someone else making a thread) for it. Granted my "ideas" are usually infeasable "best case scenario" ideas for what I believe would be the best way to do it, not necesarily the most cost effective. Though if you love to read me babble check my posts in the next gen research and management sticky thread. I actually wrote a several page document on the subject and posted it up there.

Quote:
No, each of us was doing separate travel, and i had some slight head start (which actually reflects the chase scenario closer when you think about it) ... regarding group align, it's most certainly possible to have whole group aligned and up to speed, meaning all of them warping together at the same moment. Note though, if you do gang warp then it's performed at warp speed of slowest gang member.


Wow, that is impressive. Well you learn something new every day.

frihetskjemper
Posted - 2007.07.24 18:05:00 - [397]
 

Originally by: Selena 001
This is almost EXACTLY like the thing where you have a newby guy in a covert ops to scout out positions and then have a bunch jump into the system and warp to him.

Its like a login-trap... only a damnsight more efective because there on you within 10 seconds of being in the system whereas the wait you recieve upon logging in gives almost ample time for someone to warp off. I know that method of catching people sucks cause a corpmate of mine was caught offguard with it. I was luck, I was aligned.

If someones in local, and you've scanned high and low and he isn't docked, he's in a covert ops. The time it takes him to locate you, is equal to the time it takes you to notice that he's not there. That should be reason enough for being careful.



General 0.0 Rule No.1 : Some unknown enters local, you align. If you dont see him, Scan him, or make some other form of visual contact with him in 15 seconds, he's most likely looking for you, thats when you decide to play it safe and warp, or stick it out and possibly get caught.
I would call friends to come destroy. Many men try to hide it large fleet will win to jump or log not matter.

Phrixus Zephyr
MEK Enterprises
Posted - 2007.07.24 18:08:00 - [398]
 

Die necro.

ISD Deckard Bishop


ISD Interstellar Correspondents
Posted - 2007.07.24 18:28:00 - [399]
 

necro = click


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