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blankseplocked CCP: Why is a Log-on Trap not an Exploit?
 
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Scalor Valentis
Minmatar
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.01.26 14:55:00 - [331]
 

Edited by: Scalor Valentis on 26/01/2006 14:54:51
Why not make cloaks cloak your ship also from local after some time?

Lets face it, it makes covert ops actualy, you know, covert Rolling Eyes

Also if used on other ships that dedicated cloakers, it gives them allredy pretty hefty penalty for using them.


Lets make it like this:

When ship entters local, local has 60 seconds delay. That time you have to cloak your arse. And if you dont, then you apear in local. This whuld also solve this "omgthereissomeoneinlocalwithme, logoff! logoff!" problem at hand.

When ship cloaks, it will not be shown in local chat. But it will be shown in Map after the map updates, cause the count of ships in it is based on gate activations leading in to system. This eliminating 30+ cloakked gangs sitting in system X and waitting for long time without any need to relocate to avoid map detection.

When ship uncloaks, the local 60 timer is reset, and the ship will apear after 60 seconds. This allows you to do short warps without getting detected in local.

If you are exposed in local, and cloak, your face will disapear 60 secs after cloakking. so general its 60sec rule. but it can be something else too.

Amerame
Kernel of War
Posted - 2006.01.26 15:17:00 - [332]
 

Most, if not all, people use log off as a way to avoid destruction, according to the various righteous people over here, it's an obvious lame exploit.
What's worst ? logging off to avoid combat ? or logging in to engage combat ? who's the coward ?
Logging out is a mechanism that is exploited by everyone in 0.0, unless this mechanism change radicaly there's not much to whine about, be it that you can't get a fight or that you got ganked because of it.

Scalor Valentis
Minmatar
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.01.26 15:44:00 - [333]
 

Originally by: Amerame
Most, if not all, people use log off as a way to avoid destruction, according to the various righteous people over here, it's an obvious lame exploit.
What's worst ? logging off to avoid combat ? or logging in to engage combat ? who's the coward ?
Logging out is a mechanism that is exploited by everyone in 0.0, unless this mechanism change radicaly there's not much to whine about, be it that you can't get a fight or that you got ganked because of it.


I think most pompus self righteous people in here just dont get gow much is the scale of odds is tiltted towards defender's advantage in EVE right now.

And if *gasp* huntter/atacker get a slight element of surprise, its straight away "omg H4x xiit spl0i7", petettions away! Bring out the whaambualance and carepolice etc...

The situation got a littlebit beter with the 30min map delay, now you cant see that 100 man blob coming your way 50 jumps away.
But you can still spot easily gatecamps, see kills inside hour and other idiot proof ways to avoid harms.

Local is, for time being the most accurate, most fastest way of gathering inteligence out of enemy besides being in same grid with them and having visual.

It takes no skill, 1 day char got local. No delays, its instant free inffo.

I find it sad that some peoples dont find this a littlebit absurd, and whine with zelotous rage against anykind of change to it Rolling Eyes

eLLioTT wave
Art of War
Posted - 2006.01.26 16:00:00 - [334]
 

yes yes nurf local allow tactics where did the other thread on this go?

Cvuos
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.01.26 16:13:00 - [335]
 

Originally by: Scalor Valentis


Lets make it like this:




Why so complicated?

CCP has stated that local needs an overhaul, it is meant for chat, not as a scanning tool. Just set local chat to always be in delayed mode. Would change the game completely and would make recon into an actual profession.

Shemaul
Posted - 2006.01.26 16:25:00 - [336]
 

Log-on traps are just the best answer to gate camping.

BEFORE LOG-ON TRAPS

1) connnect to eve online, entet TS (or any other audiochat software).
2) meet your homies, choose a gate to camp, move to sys.
3) wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, with the screen that seems frozen and u feel very sleepy.

NOW:

1) connnect to eve online, entet TS (or any other audiochat software).
2) meet your homies, choose a gate to camp, move to sys.
3) Log-off, play: Backgammon, solitaire, counterstrike, C&C, Quake, Rome total war, or whatever, having fun and enjoy your pc.
4) Keep an hear to TS (ar any other audiochat software) till you hear tour leader say: "GOGOGOGO LOG-IN!!!"
5) Turn off your favourite game, enter EVE and enjoy fighting and killing.

Much more funny, much less waisting time.

Only cure for this desease?
Put some poker, solitaire, or whatever inside EVE Online for all gate campers/fighters.

Rolling EyesRolling Eyes

Montague Zooma
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.01.26 16:46:00 - [337]
 

One of the reasons I post on these threads is so I can get to know my fellow players. It's much safer than in game where getting to know someone often entails discovering how well they can blow my ship to smithereens. So I wish to clarify my motivation:

I am not defending reprehensible behavior. I'm defending the principle of "if the devs allow it, you can do it".

Because if I don't embrace that principle, I'll go nuts and start lame threads arguing how pirates shouldn't be preying on their fellow players, how the logon trap is unfair, how...well, the list goes on and on and I really don't want to go down that path.

Eve is harsh, unfair, cruel and ruthless (in addition to being fun). If I don't accept that, I won't be able to enjoy the game because I'll be too busy railing against injustice.

I hope those of you who disagree with me on the specific issue of login traps can at least understand the general principle I adhere to.

Scalor Valentis
Minmatar
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.01.26 16:54:00 - [338]
 

Originally by: Cvuos
Originally by: Scalor Valentis


Lets make it like this:




Why so complicated?

CCP has stated that local needs an overhaul, it is meant for chat, not as a scanning tool. Just set local chat to always be in delayed mode. Would change the game completely and would make recon into an actual profession.


actualy my sugjestion of Cloak consealing players is realy simpple.

with tht 60 second exposing rule before showing in local.

Verone
Gallente
Veto Corp
Posted - 2006.01.26 17:33:00 - [339]
 

To be honest there is no doubt in my mind that this is, and should be classed as, and exploit.

Definition of exploit from the Eve-Online EULA FAQ :

Quote:
12.1 What is an exploit?

The common definition of an exploit is to use the game mechanics in such a way as they were not intended for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage over other players.



Not being able to see the ganksquad waiting for you, while they sit on teamspeak/vent with a scout in system is having an unfair advantage over the other player. They have eyes in a place that you don't, and can't due to rstrictions in game mechanics.

This is a blatent abuse of the log in/log out system that the game incorporates, used to gain a surprise advantage over other players.

I've personally been a victim of log-in traps three times, all by the same corporation, and to be honest this is the only aspect of eve that really gets me down.

Everyone can see it's technically an exploit, and fits the EULA definition perfectly, yet CCP choose to turn a blind eye, even when people openly admit to using it.

CCP, you're great, the best developers out there at the forefront of MMO technology...

...but please, Customer to Supplier here, sort it out, because it's destroying the PvP in game for a lot of people.


Mr Bright
Shade.
Mercenary Coalition
Posted - 2006.01.26 17:41:00 - [340]
 

Originally by: Verone
To be honest there is no doubt in my mind that this is, and should be classed as, and exploit.

Definition of exploit from the Eve-Online EULA FAQ :

Quote:
12.1 What is an exploit?

The common definition of an exploit is to use the game mechanics in such a way as they were not intended for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage over other players.



Beautiful post. Clear wording and precise content. Can only wholeheartetly support it.

(nope I am not his alt, BUT I will gladly buy the poster a beer if his path might cross aalborg denmark someday
Not being able to see the ganksquad waiting for you, while they sit on teamspeak/vent with a scout in system is having an unfair advantage over the other player. They have eyes in a place that you don't, and can't due to rstrictions in game mechanics.

This is a blatent abuse of the log in/log out system that the game incorporates, used to gain a surprise advantage over other players.

I've personally been a victim of log-in traps three times, all by the same corporation, and to be honest this is the only aspect of eve that really gets me down.

Everyone can see it's technically an exploit, and fits the EULA definition perfectly, yet CCP choose to turn a blind eye, even when people openly admit to using it.

CCP, you're great, the best developers out there at the forefront of MMO technology...

...but please, Customer to Supplier here, sort it out, because it's destroying the PvP in game for a lot of people.




Clear and precise reason why this should be dealt with. Nice post mate.

Scalor Valentis
Minmatar
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.01.26 18:10:00 - [341]
 

Originally by: Verone
To be honest there is no doubt in my mind that this is, and should be classed as, and exploit.

Definition of exploit from the Eve-Online EULA FAQ :

Quote:
12.1 What is an exploit?

The common definition of an exploit is to use the game mechanics in such a way as they were not intended for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage over other players.



Not being able to see the ganksquad waiting for you, while they sit on teamspeak/vent with a scout in system is having an unfair advantage over the other player. They have eyes in a place that you don't, and can't due to rstrictions in game mechanics.

This is a blatent abuse of the log in/log out system that the game incorporates, used to gain a surprise advantage over other players.

I've personally been a victim of log-in traps three times, all by the same corporation, and to be honest this is the only aspect of eve that really gets me down.





Its can of worms CCP dont want to touch even with 16feet pole..

Dude think abaut it a lil?
Everytime you log on to kill someone, even if not in "log on trap" sence, you can be "petettioned" to logging in the damn game, in first plase Laughing.

Besides, its a way to get araund othervice so idiotproof local chat ugh

So far i dont see any other way to have eyes on some system without exposing yourself to the peoples you are reconing at.

And if enemy knows you are there, waching him, wht kind of recon is that?


I, myself dont use login traps at all, so dont mistaken me for that. I just dont see any ther way to avoid detection from local chat.
Granted, you can be in some other system, but then all seing local will have you scoutted in no time. Rolling Eyes

In case of gettin this freighter from long warp, its abaut only way to get one.


Besides, freighter culd just log out. Rolling Eyes


Jamius
Posted - 2006.01.26 18:22:00 - [342]
 

This is sounding like another case of we police it ourselves. If any corps become notorious for doing this logging on (and from this thread it looks like we may have 1 or 2 already) then corps/alliances go and wage war against them for long enough until the offending corp/alliance no longer exists or openly states they will stop said tactic.

Looks like far more people are against it than for it so we should make an example of them. Or is such an act against the rules and seen as unfair harrasment? If that's the case then I am sure plenty of other reasons are valid to wipe said corps from the game.

I am in a 2 man corp and pretty much a loner but would be happy to join up with a larger corp to help out for a few weeks. Would be a nice little vacation for me :)

Karash Amerius
Sutoka
Posted - 2006.01.26 18:25:00 - [343]
 

"Logon Traps Keep the Economy Going"

What do you think of my new slogan? Twisted Evil

Amerame
Kernel of War
Posted - 2006.01.26 19:33:00 - [344]
 

Originally by: Verone
To be honest there is no doubt in my mind that this is, and should be classed as, and exploit.

Definition of exploit from the Eve-Online EULA FAQ :

Quote:
12.1 What is an exploit?

The common definition of an exploit is to use the game mechanics in such a way as they were not intended for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage over other players.



Not being able to see the ganksquad waiting for you, while they sit on teamspeak/vent with a scout in system is having an unfair advantage over the other player. They have eyes in a place that you don't, and can't due to rstrictions in game mechanics.

This is a blatent abuse of the log in/log out system that the game incorporates, used to gain a surprise advantage over other players.

I've personally been a victim of log-in traps three times, all by the same corporation, and to be honest this is the only aspect of eve that really gets me down.

Everyone can see it's technically an exploit, and fits the EULA definition perfectly, yet CCP choose to turn a blind eye, even when people openly admit to using it.

CCP, you're great, the best developers out there at the forefront of MMO technology...

...but please, Customer to Supplier here, sort it out, because it's destroying the PvP in game for a lot of people.




Bookmarks were not intended to be a way of insta warping. Is every single player in the game exploiting then ? It's up to devs to decide whether an unintended feature is legitimate or not, in both BM and log on traps they ruled it's ok, therefore it's not an exploit. There would be dozens of other example similar to those, escrow / market in 0.0 when they were not supposed to be available. Some are ruled to be ok, some are not like tanking PoSes with drones, relogging in the last stage of a complexe and so on ...
If something is an exploit, then mechanism must be fixed to make the exploit impossible. Getting the GM to enforce it permanently is wrong on so many points, it just can't work.

Mr Bright
Shade.
Mercenary Coalition
Posted - 2006.01.26 20:01:00 - [345]
 

Originally by: Amerame
-Snip-
If something is an exploit, then mechanism must be fixed to make the exploit impossible. Getting the GM to enforce it permanently is wrong on so many points, it just can't work.


Could not agree more, and there have been several suggestions to how such a mechanism could be implemented that would hinder log on traps but not affect normal players. Yay - we want them Devs to consider the solutions suggested and make the lame tactic unfeasable.

Stronginthearm
Posted - 2006.01.27 03:59:00 - [346]
 

Just thought I would throw out a suggestion. While the login trap could be and is considerd an exlpoit by a lot of people the tactic itself is quite realistic. My .2 ISk suggestion is that instead of nerfing local why not simply make a power down option available. Where once a person or persons powers off they are off of local but their ship remains with an extremly small signature. Then once they power up a timer starts something like 30 seconds or so where they appear first in local and before they can move or fire their weapons.

Of course the idea doesn't fix the exploit or stop a crew from using an alt to tell them when to power up.

Plow
Posted - 2006.01.27 05:27:00 - [347]
 

I didn't read all the pages in this post so I'm not sure if this idea has been suggested or not but...
Why not have it so that if you log in after being logged off for under say 45-min - 1 hour you can not shoot anyone until being shot at, or unless you have gone to a station and docked/undocked. That way it would give everyone in the system time to notice the people using the log on EXPLOIT and leave or rally people to gether to take them on. As for the exploiters they wouldn't be able to ambush players who are playing by the fairly. It is obviously an exploit that we do not need and something should be done about it. I know most Alliances won't do this but there are enough unrespectable corps out there that do on a regular basis.

Kayoss Rolling Eyes

Dukath
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.01.27 06:52:00 - [348]
 

Originally by: Plow
I didn't read all the pages in this post so I'm not sure if this idea has been suggested or not but...
Why not have it so that if you log in after being logged off for under say 45-min - 1 hour you can not shoot anyone until being shot at, or unless you have gone to a station and docked/undocked. That way it would give everyone in the system time to notice the people using the log on EXPLOIT and leave or rally people to gether to take them on. As for the exploiters they wouldn't be able to ambush players who are playing by the fairly. It is obviously an exploit that we do not need and something should be done about it. I know most Alliances won't do this but there are enough unrespectable corps out there that do on a regular basis.

Kayoss Rolling Eyes


I'm afraid these suggestions won't work. You can't shoot until shot at after logging in? This really penalises everyone, not only the exploiters. Besides for the exploiters there is an easy workaround. They got a scout in system, so as soon as his friends log in he takes one shot at them so they can fight.

You have to dock or undock? Yay, not a single deep space mining operation will be able to defend itself without travelling to the nearest station first.

The only fool proof and workable solution is persistant ships. with the following safe modes of logging off.
1) log out inside a POS bubble which should keep the ship inside
2) log off with an online cloak, which should cloak your ship after the emergency warp
3) log off inside a station
4) log off in high sec space if you don't have any wartargets.

Fallout2man
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.01.27 07:21:00 - [349]
 

Originally by: Selena Sellion
Login Trap; When a large number of hostiles log on simultaneously and imedately fly into combat with a pre-scouted unequal (weaker) enemy, giving them no time to react.

Apparantly this isnt an exploit. Certain corps ADMIT using it on a regular basis. There is no countermeasure.

CCP PLEASE EXPLAIN your policy on this; It seems clear it is using an out of game mechanic (not appearing on local while offline) to gain an ingame advantage (surprising a force with greater numbers with no counters possible)


Now This is a tactic used by many groups, but is trademarked by RAT. corp.
(see here for admission link)

They have often used it, in particular one incident comes to mind when they logged on a fleet which had been (before logoff) hugging a gate, just as a freighter enterred warp to that gate with its escort fleet; end result dead freighter.

How can this behaviour be allowed? What counter is there?? Once the freighter pilot saw local fill up, what could he have done (he was already in warp)??


MAKE IT AN EXPLOIT.


I know why I wouldn't consider it an exploit, not CCP, however personally I find the fact local chat is used as a tactical tool a gross abuse of game mechanics. If anything local is the exploit, not the log-on trap.

DarkPhate Endovari
THE UNKNOWN KNOWN
Posted - 2006.01.27 09:22:00 - [350]
 

If it is ok to log in and "ambush" an enemy and it is considered a valid tactic, then by the same reasoning the person getting ambushed should be able to log off mid combat with no repercusions to avoid losing his ship.
After all he is only doing what the log in trappers are doing and ducking out of game to gain a upper hand/advantage.

Double standards, not good.

Moominer
InterGalactic Corp.
Imperial Republic Of the North
Posted - 2006.01.27 09:38:00 - [351]
 

Originally by: Dukath
The only fool proof and workable solution is persistant ships. with the following safe modes of logging off.
1) log out inside a POS bubble which should keep the ship inside
2) log off with an online cloak, which should cloak your ship after the emergency warp
3) log off inside a station
4) log off in high sec space if you don't have any wartargets.


This solves logon traps for 0.0 (where there are a lack of stations you can dock at in hostile territory) but what for high sec empire wars or lowsec what is to stop:

1. Logging your force off in a station
2. Scouting system with a cov op pilot
3. Relaying on TS when a juicy target is available
4. Everyone log in, undock, and warp to target/regang warp to cov op pilot

? It is more inconvenient than doing it in a safespot, and you can end up being station-camped, but your proposed solution does by no means stop logon traps in their entirity - and a line has to be drawn somewhere.

Everyone is aware of situations where targets just don't engage, when you are online they sit in stations/POSes/log themselves - they will only ever be online and about if your showing red on buddy list and/or not in the system.

Is logging off when hostiles are in local really any different to logging in if targets are in local? That's an abuse of "game login/logoff" mechanics as far as I am concerned, but happens way more often than logon traps.

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2006.01.27 10:03:00 - [352]
 

Originally by: Verone
To be honest there is no doubt in my mind that this is, and should be classed as, and exploit.

Definition of exploit from the Eve-Online EULA FAQ :

Quote:
12.1 What is an exploit?

The common definition of an exploit is “to use the game mechanics in such a way as they were not intended for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage over other players.”



Not being able to see the ganksquad waiting for you, while they sit on teamspeak/vent with a scout in system is having an unfair advantage over the other player. They have eyes in a place that you don't, and can't due to rstrictions in game mechanics.

This is a blatent abuse of the log in/log out system that the game incorporates, used to gain a surprise advantage over other players.

I've personally been a victim of log-in traps three times, all by the same corporation, and to be honest this is the only aspect of eve that really gets me down.

Everyone can see it's technically an exploit, and fits the EULA definition perfectly, yet CCP choose to turn a blind eye, even when people openly admit to using it.

CCP, you're great, the best developers out there at the forefront of MMO technology...

...but please, Customer to Supplier here, sort it out, because it's destroying the PvP in game for a lot of people.




If you want to get all technical, it doesn't violate the EULA at all.

Logging out isn't abusing a game mechanic, it is leaving the game.
Logging in isn't abusing a game mechanic, it is joining the game.

Logging in when told to (either via msn, irc, voice comms, whatever), still isn't an abuse of game mechanics, because Eve's rules do not bind you when you are out of the game.

It is lame, but it isn't cheating.

The solution is to give players the information they need to work out if there is a fleet logged off (jump in / out for each system).
Game mechanic restrictions can't work in a fair way.
It isn't fair to expect GM's to investigate every case.
So all that is left is for the players to take charge of their own destiny - and currently there isn't enough available information to make that viable.

Fallout2man
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.01.27 10:08:00 - [353]
 

Originally by: DarkPhate Endovari
If it is ok to log in and "ambush" an enemy and it is considered a valid tactic, then by the same reasoning the person getting ambushed should be able to log off mid combat with no repercusions to avoid losing his ship.
After all he is only doing what the log in trappers are doing and ducking out of game to gain a upper hand/advantage.

Double standards, not good.


There is a difference however. Log-in attacks are necessary as right now local is used in an unintended fashion to exploit and scan the system for others. This makes ambushes otherwise impossible as there is no way to properly hide an ambush fleet outside of heavily populated empire systems where preforming such an ambush is ridiculous.

Local needs to be changed and eve needs to have stealth possible. As right now cloaking devices for instance are relatively useless except as a last ditch effort to escape pursuers and hope. We need real stealth, and until such a point methods to get around the exploit that is local can be considered ethically justifiable.

Auman
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.01.27 11:13:00 - [354]
 

Quote:
There is a difference however. Log-in attacks are necessary as right now local is used in an unintended fashion to exploit and scan the system for others. This makes ambushes otherwise impossible as there is no way to properly hide an ambush fleet outside of heavily populated empire systems where preforming such an ambush is ridiculous.



Log in tactics are not neccessary to score kills unless you suck at Eve. You can ambush people perfectly well while staying in game.

FireFoxx80
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.01.27 11:19:00 - [355]
 

Why not drop the cap 2% for every minute logged out whilst in space? That still gives people whose PC's crash a good 15 minutes to get back onto the game.

Marie CIaire
Posted - 2006.01.27 11:35:00 - [356]
 

FireFoxx ou are my Hero. This is the best solution I ve read about in this Thread. And it counters Oveurs statement with the unintentional log off.

Haldren
Posted - 2006.01.27 12:00:00 - [357]
 

Why not just introduce drift into the game, when someone logs out for 5 minuites they are stealth drifting then are exited from the game. That could put someone a few hundred KM away from where they logged off in space. To counter that someone could just log out in a starbase and not worry about drift. That way a logon fleet would be slightly split up, because the drift would be in random directions.

Just a thought.

Mr Bright
Shade.
Mercenary Coalition
Posted - 2006.01.27 15:01:00 - [358]
 

Originally by: FireFoxx80
Why not drop the cap 2% for every minute logged out whilst in space? That still gives people whose PC's crash a good 15 minutes to get back onto the game.


Couldn't this be countered with cap boosters?
Moreover would logging on with no cap not just mean you couldn't warp from the autogenerated safespot?

Evil Thug
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2006.01.27 15:58:00 - [359]
 

Make cloaked characters disappear from local.
Make special "remote cloaking device", and shiptype, that allow to use this thing.

Problem is solved.

eLLioTT wave
Art of War
Posted - 2006.01.27 16:07:00 - [360]
 

Originally by: eLLioTT wave
Originally by: Uggster
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists
Edited by: Rexthor Hammerfists on 26/01/2006 00:44:54
then - Just Add a logged off Filter in the map, for the last 24h, simple.
YARRRR!!
Laughing


Um, did i read this whole thread and miss that?

That is perfect!!! Logged off users in last hour / 2 hours / 24 hours.

So simple! Anyone object? (apart from the lame ppl using logon traps of course)


Hello!? we already have the perfect fix?

look at map shows 200 people logged off in XYZ-12 in the last hour... hmm i wonder what that oculd mean, maybe its just a coincidence...


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