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blankseplocked CCP: Why is a Log-on Trap not an Exploit?
 
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j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.01.26 00:52:00 - [301]
 

"What are you arguing at ? an official answer in this thread made it clear it was a legitimate use of a game mechanism, the name of the button doesn't matter."

More correctly, the official answer in this thread makes it clear the game developer considers this use as lame as lameness goes, but they're unable to implement mechanics which would curb it beyond the point it'd been already curbed, without penalizing people who do not make use of these tactics.

But yes, it's legitimate. Which is why i find these desperate enough to use it simply short on the game skill, instead of game-breakers.


"By the way, random newbies using a logging trap : they gank a battleship fitted with miners. RAT using a log in trap : they destroy an entire fleet including a dreadnaught, that's probably what skill is."

Skill is now being able to destroy some ships with twice as many numbers, and the target supposedly lagged out for couple of minutes and unable to react? Sorry, will have to disagree with your definition here; this particular bar is hanging just tad bit too low.

Tenacha Khan
TunDraGon
Posted - 2006.01.26 00:55:00 - [302]
 

Originally by: Nomen Nescio
Originally by: Tenacha Khan
Originally by: Nomen Nescio
Originally by: Man Upright
i can't believe the rage and terror guys actually admitted that they suck at eve.

lolz.

They have killmails to speak for them.

And they also have honor to admit whatever they do or did. While a lot of poeople are for some reason "shy" to admit on a froum stuff they did in the game.


Honor? those cowardly bunch of she ***** ****s have no honor.

They just like to shove it in peoples faces that they can cheat and the devs wont do anything about it.

It should just go back to the way it used to be, one group uses log on tactic, the victims get their ships replaces and the cheaters get a ban. But, I suppose ccp doesnt want the extra work and instead choose to spend their time making more eyecandy for magazines instead of sorting out cheaters that effect the little content there is.


It is not cheating untill rules say that. There is no rule saying that.

They dont crack the system, they dont change their game clients, they dont even the first of the only ones who use this strategy. They just the ones who can use it and kill big stuff such that owners of the big stuff cry out too loud.

The "you know who" assaulted poses of "you know who" used drones to trick sentry fire the gm came and concidered this to be exploit. Before it was official you could do that.

Then "you know who" tanked sentries in Yulai all day long and pwn everyone the gm came and ask them to stop. Before they asked it was not exploit or cheating - it was clever usages of valid game logic, but after gm said so that it became and exploit. And all "you know who" were bannend not for tanking sentires in 1.0 but for disobeying the gm order.

Some people dont like local, but they live with it utill it gets fixed. You dont like logon traps, but you will have to live with it utill it gets fixed.

PS
On the other hand personal insult is a punishable offence right now:).



Actually the devs already stated that it was an exploit, I believe there was a piece in the news about it.

I really dont see how you can say that its not cheating.

The people who us it are only scum anyway. Is rat. part of the russian alliance?

Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2006.01.26 00:57:00 - [303]
 

Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 26/01/2006 00:57:21
Originally by: Tenacha Khan
The people who us it are only scum anyway. Is rat. part of the russian alliance?


They are not in RA but look very close to RA.

Amerame
Kernel of War
Posted - 2006.01.26 01:19:00 - [304]
 

Originally by: Tenacha Khan

I really dont see how you can say that its not cheating.



Read Oveur's post maybe ?

AngryCanuk
Posted - 2006.01.26 01:30:00 - [305]
 

Im going to use this trick, will work well on get afew mill ISK out of ppl

yay for log in tactic!

Ishmael Hansen
EXTERMINATUS.
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2006.01.26 01:56:00 - [306]
 

Must be Roleplaying, they just found some Jove tech and can now use Jumpdrives in entire fleets without cynos.
"look at me, I'm in another universe, hey now I'm in your system killing you"

Lame tactic.


Very funny Scotty. Now beam up my clothes.

Montague Zooma
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.01.26 02:15:00 - [307]
 

Originally by: j0sephine
"no, I can't make my ship disappear from scanner, local and map any other way than using the logoff function that the devs have provided."

Precisely; which is why analogy with voice communication programs falls short -- despite similarity of some aspects, in the end these are two different things.


They are both the same in that they are allowed by the devs. That alone is good enough for me, if not for you. One dev does call the trap lame, but lameness is not banned from the game. If it were, the server population would be considerably lower. Well, lower by one in my case, anyway. Wink

Quote:
Note, "the devs have provided" this ability as means to quit the game, not to temporarily hide your ship. That's why it's called "Quit" and not "Hide" on the interface, and causes the game to shut down as opposed to hiding your ship...


Are bookmarks being used as originally intended? Escrow? Alts? A game this complex will have unintended consequences. When devs let players use features for other purposes, it becomes part of the game.

Just because a feature of a game has unforeseen effects is no proof that it's wrong (although I doubt the logon trap was unforeseen). If the effect is deemed damaging to the game, the devs will change it. But they seem to have weighed the pros and cons and decided we're better off keeping things the way they are.


Quote:
No, afraid the logic here is quite different:

* text chat in game: player tells another player "hi"
* voice chat: player tells another player "hi"

* regular gameplay: user spends their time at keyboard, mining
* macro gameplay: user is away from keyboard while the automated macro does the work for them

... the difference is quite easy to spot, i think. Incidentally, macroing from your example does very similar thing to the log on/log off tactics -- that is, provides the player with ability that wasn't intended as part of gameplay.


Macros and TS both result in game actions taking place without having to use the keyboard. You don't have to type out your communications with TS and don't have to use your keyboard to mine with macros (my assumption, anyway, as I have no experience with them).

I can easily see someone wanting to use macros while not being afk. It's a tedious process, why not let your PC go through the motions for you? Sounds like a nice solution for those with carpal tunnel problems, too.

Quote:
Regarding your idea though, i doubt it's going to work versus people who will have absolutely no qualms about simply logging off to avoid being shot at... :s


Hehe, if executed properly, then at least they'd find themselves out of the game most of the time.

Oh well. Obviously, we aren't going to convince each other. It's been nice chatting with you, though.

Gonada
The Scope
Posted - 2006.01.26 02:52:00 - [308]
 

lolz, this thread is still being bombarded by the defenders of the incompetant ?

Very Happy
apperantly so.

eLLioTT wave
Art of War
Posted - 2006.01.26 03:01:00 - [309]
 

I think the FIX that is coming will be upgraded hardware reducing the amount of lag any single corp can produce (hopefully to none)

This would mean logon traps are still a problem but they don't lag players out so they cant respond to it hence losing dreads ect.

As for fixing the logon trap in general, how about a timer that limits how many corp members can logon at the same time, calculated by a percentage of the corp population.
EG
10 members - not counted

20 members - 1 can logon every 30 seconds at most.

100 members - 1 can logon every 3 seconds.

200 members - 1 can logon every second

This would mean that a logon trap by 100 member corp would take 10 minutes to form up.

This would cause minimal inconvenience to normal corps as they can either stay logged in OR if they get a warning when trying to logon that says their corp timer is reach they have to wait AT MOST 30 seconds.

Bigger the corp the less the penalty to allow for more people.

Thoughts? Comments? Ahah's?

Nebuli
Caldari
Capital Construction Research
Pioneer Alliance
Posted - 2006.01.26 03:06:00 - [310]
 

Hey Elliot ,long time no see, drop me a line in-game m8 :)

Back on topic, that wouldnt realy work due to it being used by mixed fleets of more than one corp.

Think the best solution I have heard is to log out you have to shutdown your ship, after you log out ship warps to a ss, when you log in it takes about 1min or so to power the ship back up again, and it remains in the ss, not warping back to where it originated.

You could play the "well what about people who dc alot?" card, but wont these server upgrades fix all that, and give us a 100% lag free environment with no dc's ever? Laughing

Malka Badi'a
Doomheim
Posted - 2006.01.26 03:15:00 - [311]
 

Quote:
No you didn't. Only players can win a game. Since you're not a player you can't win.
Odd, you would think that as someone who isn't a player.. I wouldn't be posting here.
Quote:
During a pokergame when you fold then that's it. You don't come back into the game later when you know you will win. You're out. No pot for you.
This isn't poker. Are you on the right forums?
Quote:
It's the same in Eve. You've logged out, you're not a player, no pot for you.
Really? Because I can log off and back on, and I still have the killmail in the end. Doesn't seem to be a magical pot force keeping me from logging in either.
Quote:
OK. This is a computergame so you can actually pull off bs like that and get away with it, but that doesn't make you a winner. It makes you even more of a loser because now the crowd, the real players know what kind of a b* made little cheater you are.
Helloooo. Pirate. Murderer. I'm not here for your respect, I'm here for your ship.
Quote:
You might have won in a game sense but what's that worth when you don't earn the respect that goes with it?
What good is the reward of respect if I'm seeking your ship, corpse, and fear?

Aeaus
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
Posted - 2006.01.26 03:17:00 - [312]
 

Okay, let's just look at mathametical solutions to this problem...

First we would need to have a sampling method, so let's just have the server only be able to have people login (just lump logins) only every thirty seconds or somewhere close to there.

Server would count people in system every interval. Then it would compare that number to login attempts. If logins in past thirty seconds greater then > 10% of system total at last interval have a login delay. Obviously for small systems this number would be modified, and so on. This way this is corp / gang / alliance independent and wouldn't hinder players.

For example...

Large Hub
200 Active Average
Very unlikely for 20 people to login in one 30 second time slot, so no biggie...

Popular Low Sec System
10 Active Average
Again, very unlikely for more then one guy to login in a 30 second time slot, so won't hurt people...

Logon Trap
5 Guys passing through
Small escort with freighter passing through, well we would have the ability for one guy to logon without delay due to size, maybe two. But more then two players randomly logging on in a mostly empty area within a 30 second time slot. Sorry, unlikely, very unlikely...


Cons:
Somebody that would login right before the next time slot works would be allowed to pass through without delay. Rest of the group logging on would be delayed.

This delay would need to be adjusted for average distance between gates. Don't want a log on trap while in a 100 AU warp in a freighter, etc. Anyhow the purpose is to minimize legit delays and maximize effectiveness against logon traps.

CursedFox
Posted - 2006.01.26 04:55:00 - [313]
 

Originally by: Vegeir
So you want it made an exploit? Which means every time anyone loses a ship in which they didn't see it coming they are going to petition.

Whether it was a log on, jump in, ignorance of local or the additional attempt to lie. There are going to be ALOT of petitions. This will not be enforceable, just water down what time the GM's have which is already strained.

No.. /designed, /unsigned, /whateversaysno.

I think if a solution is to arrive it needs to attack the ability or lack of a counter, not a subjective reprimand on action. That never succeeds easily.


I agree I think this is a exploit, its clearly trying to get around game mechanics. The best solution would be some type of counter (Say for example ships that just logged on are 50% effective if they start combat first (That way if you log in and are getting ganked theres no penalty) or something to that effect. All in all, CCP make it a exploit and enforce or make a counter to this tatic.

Harry Voyager
Jolly Codgers
Posted - 2006.01.26 04:58:00 - [314]
 

Edited by: Harry Voyager on 26/01/2006 05:00:14
Guys, it's a trap. Does anyone have any understanding what this means? 'Cause it sure doesn't sound like it from many of the posts I'm reading here.

The only way someone can lay one of these is if they know what you are doing as well as you do, and you are completely ignorant of what the opposing forces are up to. If you are that incredibly stupid, you deserve to be ambushed and slaughters.

How to beat a log-in trap 101:

Vary your routes. It's a trap. That means once it is set, it can not move. Let me repeat: a trap is stationary, a fleet is mobile. If you can't evade a fixed object, you're pretty hopeless.

Pay attention. (And I don't mean just watch local.) A log in trap requires a significant number of ships to go to a specific sector and log off. Watch ahead of your route. If you are seeing a bead of ships heading to a system where they don't show up in, and don't enter, guess what? They're probably logging off there. I wonder what that could mean?

Use Human Intelligence. What is the one thing a log in trap is going to be doing? Talking! They do have to organize these things, you know, and that involves talking with eachother and organizing, and laying out all those happy little details. All you have to do is insert a few agents into the enemy ranks, and guess what? You know when they're planning one, and ussually where they're doing it too, and you can hold a little ambush of your own.

In conflict there will always be things that cause on problems: lag, suprize attacks, spies, malfunctions, unorthodox tactics. The difference between the truely great fighting force and the merely second rate, is the difference between dealing with things, and merely whining on the forums about them.

About the only difference between the real world and Eve, in that respect, is the whiners keep getting the rules changed for them. That they still lose anyways is true in both, but at least in the real world they get conquered and become irrelevant.

Harry Voyager

Uggster
Caldari
FinFleet
KenZoku
Posted - 2006.01.26 05:00:00 - [315]
 

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists
Edited by: Rexthor Hammerfists on 26/01/2006 00:44:54
first off, shame on the ppl using login traps, simple.



then - Just Add a logged off Filter in the map, for the last 24h, simple.



Thinks everyone should wardec and camp these ppl for crimes against humanity. YARRRR!!



Well as a large part of Eve is already at the throats of the RA and their lapdogs it seems that your wish has come true dear Jenny. Laughing

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.01.26 05:58:00 - [316]
 

Edited by: j0sephine on 26/01/2006 05:58:32

"Vary your routes. It's a trap. That means once it is set, it can not move. Let me repeat: a trap is stationary, a fleet is mobile. If you can't evade a fixed object, you're pretty hopeless."

Chokepoints; if you are somehow able to vary your routes to get to your destinations without ever passing through any of these, you can safely consider yourself something special. Truly one-of-a-kind special.


"Pay attention. (And I don't mean just watch local.) A log in trap requires a significant number of ships to go to a specific sector and log off. Watch ahead of your route. If you are seeing a bead of ships heading to a system where they don't show up in, and don't enter, guess what? They're probably logging off there. I wonder what that could mean?"

Log on trap has no obligation to prepare itself while you happen to be online, enroute and watching the map. It might've been sitting there on and off since couple hours earlier or even the last downtime, any sign of it erased and long gone thanks to other travellers moving along the routes.


"Use Human Intelligence. What is the one thing a log in trap is going to be doing? Talking! They do have to organize these things, you know, and that involves talking with eachother and organizing, and laying out all those happy little details. All you have to do is insert a few agents into the enemy ranks, and guess what? You know when they're planning one, and ussually where they're doing it too, and you can hold a little ambush of your own."

In EVE, everyone with no positive standings and/or NAP is your enemy, and in many situations this selection can be even broader than that. Good luck getting your agents in every single alliance (down to individual corps which can be running their separate ops) pirate corps and whatever else you might deem suspicious. Reckon you're likely to run out of willing manforce long before you're done, though.

Afraid we're in need of at least "beat a log-in trap 102" here, Harry.

eLLioTT wave
Art of War
Posted - 2006.01.26 06:15:00 - [317]
 

Originally by: Uggster
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists
Edited by: Rexthor Hammerfists on 26/01/2006 00:44:54
then - Just Add a logged off Filter in the map, for the last 24h, simple.
YARRRR!!
Laughing


Um, did i read this whole thread and miss that?

That is perfect!!! Logged off users in last hour / 2 hours / 24 hours.

So simple! Anyone object? (apart from the lame ppl using logon traps of course)

Harry Voyager
Jolly Codgers
Posted - 2006.01.26 07:20:00 - [318]
 

Beat Log In Traps 102 is go play some other game if you aren't willing to think for yourself.

Seriously, if all you want is highly stylized "fair" combat, World of Warcraft is still taking new players. It's far better at the "everything is equall, everyone gets their marbles back at the end" style of warfare, than Eve could ever be.

Eve is about ruthlessness and ingenuity. If you are unable, or unwilling, to have either, this isn't your game.

Harry Voyager

Mr Bright
Shade.
Mercenary Coalition
Posted - 2006.01.26 09:42:00 - [319]
 

Originally by: Harry Voyager
Beat Log In Traps 102 is go play some other game if you aren't willing to think for yourself.

Seriously, if all you want is highly stylized "fair" combat, World of Warcraft is still taking new players. It's far better at the "everything is equall, everyone gets their marbles back at the end" style of warfare, than Eve could ever be.

Eve is about ruthlessness and ingenuity. If you are unable, or unwilling, to have either, this isn't your game.

Harry Voyager


Well we arenít asking for a fair game, far from it - if log in traps was not possible only truly skilled people would be able to trap players with fast fleet movements and tight coordination. I see people using log in traps as being too incompetent to do it with the tools provided ingame. It seems though, that the supporters of log in traps have made it their eve life achievement to be "lame".



Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
Posted - 2006.01.26 09:52:00 - [320]
 

Originally by: Harry Voyager
Eve is about ruthlessness and ingenuity. If you are unable, or unwilling, to have either, this isn't your game.


So sitting at the login screen is ruthlessness and ingenuity. Beautiful thread to be honest the defenders of this "tactic" come up with the most suprising "arguments"

Jamius
Posted - 2006.01.26 11:13:00 - [321]
 

I am cutting in late to this debate and hope I ain't repeating anything (but I am not reading 11 pages) but I do find this logon tactic poor to say the least.

Is a possible solution not to just log off. I've never logged in a fight situation but is it not so that if you do not aggress in any way then you will simply warp off, no matter how many scramblers are on you.

I would not stop for a second in logging off to someone using this log on tactic. Sure some people might get it wrong sometimes (cos large fleets do jump into systems) but it is at least a possible counter to extremely lame log on tactics.


Nebuli
Caldari
Capital Construction Research
Pioneer Alliance
Posted - 2006.01.26 11:26:00 - [322]
 

Originally by: Jamius
I am cutting in late to this debate and hope I ain't repeating anything (but I am not reading 11 pages) but I do find this logon tactic poor to say the least.

Is a possible solution not to just log off. I've never logged in a fight situation but is it not so that if you do not aggress in any way then you will simply warp off, no matter how many scramblers are on you.

I would not stop for a second in logging off to someone using this log on tactic. Sure some people might get it wrong sometimes (cos large fleets do jump into systems) but it is at least a possible counter to extremely lame log on tactics.





See this here is another reason why this tactic realy needs to be sorted out tbh, if it becomes common place and fully accepted to use in log-in traps, imagine if EVERYONE started using them, you would NEVER get a fight, everyone would be sat looking at log in screens waiting for another logged off fleet to come past them.

The community of this game is great and I am so happy to hear so many people fully agree at how lame this realy is, and to be honest IS an exploit wether the devs say it is or isnt, common sense says it is.

And for those defending it, your excuses for it are simply LaughingLaughingLaughingLaughing

Kyrmius
Chaotic Navigation
Posted - 2006.01.26 11:57:00 - [323]
 

when I hear of these kind of tactics being used by players whom live, fight, and die in 0.0 space, it only reinforces my decision to NOT go to 0.0....

I would be very angry as a player if a corp/alliance I was a member of proposed using, or actually used this tactic;

I would be very angry as a player if I was a victim of this tactic;

I thought EVE Online was about Space Combat and survival? I thought EVE was about being the best Pilot you could be?

How in the virtual OR real world could the fleet log-in tactic be considered honorable OR how could it be justified in our portrayal as Pod Pilots in this particular space based far-future MMORPG?

Perhaps EVE Online can no longer be classified as a MMORPG....

Jamius
Posted - 2006.01.26 12:23:00 - [324]
 

Originally by: Kyrmius
when I hear of these kind of tactics being used by players whom live, fight, and die in 0.0 space, it only reinforces my decision to NOT go to 0.0....

I would be very angry as a player if a corp/alliance I was a member of proposed using, or actually used this tactic;

I would be very angry as a player if I was a victim of this tactic;

I thought EVE Online was about Space Combat and survival? I thought EVE was about being the best Pilot you could be?

How in the virtual OR real world could the fleet log-in tactic be considered honorable OR how could it be justified in our portrayal as Pod Pilots in this particular space based far-future MMORPG?

Perhaps EVE Online can no longer be classified as a MMORPG....


When I used to be in NBSI in 0.0 in the North I went out in maybe 3 or 4 fleets to intercept and destroy enemy fleets that had decided to enter our space. On every single one I was in what basically happened was this.:

1) someone warns of enemy fleet in our space
2) a leader character puts out a call for NBSI fleet to intercept and we meet as ordered (this was a quickly created counter fleet that just happened to usually outnumber the enemy fleet - they are in our space after all so what do they expect - if our fleet was smaller - guess what, we still went out hunting)
3) We go to where the enemy fleet is and guess what they did - ALMOST EVERY TIME - they logged off before we even engage them.

Then comes a rinse and repeat of detect, travel, enemy logs, we wait, get bored blah blah blah. 2 or 3 hours of utter boredom all caused by people just not playing cricket.

This log on tactic is just another way of finding any way to win (or not lose), no matter what.

It sucks no matter how you look at it. Playing WITHIN the game is fair cop, even using the much argued thing, wcs. These are in the game as they are and it's totally acceptable to use em in my book (even though I do not in battle). But using the fact we all have to log in and out of Eve as it is a game to your advantage is lame lame lame.

Anyone using this tactic must hence think that it is OK for a boxer to leap out the boxing ring during a fight cos they feel worried they might lose. But then expect to be able to re-join the fight at a moment of their choice. No, the other boxer gets disqualified and laughed out of boxing for being such a woose.

Mr Bright
Shade.
Mercenary Coalition
Posted - 2006.01.26 13:07:00 - [325]
 

I really dont think you can compare the tactic of logging off as a fleet to avoid combat and logging on to gank a single target predetermined by a covert ops/scout. The former is annoying yes, but the latter is where it takes the turn to lame.

I do agree that the best course of action would have been persistant ships always - but with the game progressed so much in its current form such a drastic change would not be a smart move (just look at SOE and their drastic changes of star wars).

The one thing that needs to be removed from the game, is the log in traps. This pathetic excuse of a tactic is extremely counterproductive to everything else in the game. It requires only some players willing to sit at the log in screen ready to hit connect for hours. Waiting to lure a target that have no chance of forseeing the trap.

Fast moving frig/hac fleets etc is fully acceptable and a great way to disrupt and terrorise a target corp/allaince. Furthermore it gives the target a chance to spot it on the map - log in traps are just a sad tactic for those that cant muster the coordination to the same thing with ingame tools.

There, rant complete :)

Kyrmius
Chaotic Navigation
Posted - 2006.01.26 13:12:00 - [326]
 

Originally by: Jamius
Originally by: Kyrmius
when I hear of these kind of tactics being used by players whom live, fight, and die in 0.0 space, it only reinforces my decision to NOT go to 0.0....

I would be very angry as a player if a corp/alliance I was a member of proposed using, or actually used this tactic;

I would be very angry as a player if I was a victim of this tactic;

I thought EVE Online was about Space Combat and survival? I thought EVE was about being the best Pilot you could be?

How in the virtual OR real world could the fleet log-in tactic be considered honorable OR how could it be justified in our portrayal as Pod Pilots in this particular space based far-future MMORPG?

Perhaps EVE Online can no longer be classified as a MMORPG....


When I used to be in NBSI in 0.0 in the North I went out in maybe 3 or 4 fleets to intercept and destroy enemy fleets that had decided to enter our space. On every single one I was in what basically happened was this.:

1) someone warns of enemy fleet in our space
2) a leader character puts out a call for NBSI fleet to intercept and we meet as ordered (this was a quickly created counter fleet that just happened to usually outnumber the enemy fleet - they are in our space after all so what do they expect - if our fleet was smaller - guess what, we still went out hunting)
3) We go to where the enemy fleet is and guess what they did - ALMOST EVERY TIME - they logged off before we even engage them.

Then comes a rinse and repeat of detect, travel, enemy logs, we wait, get bored blah blah blah. 2 or 3 hours of utter boredom all caused by people just not playing cricket.

This log on tactic is just another way of finding any way to win (or not lose), no matter what.

It sucks no matter how you look at it. Playing WITHIN the game is fair cop, even using the much argued thing, wcs. These are in the game as they are and it's totally acceptable to use em in my book (even though I do not in battle). But using the fact we all have to log in and out of Eve as it is a game to your advantage is lame lame lame.

Anyone using this tactic must hence think that it is OK for a boxer to leap out the boxing ring during a fight cos they feel worried they might lose. But then expect to be able to re-join the fight at a moment of their choice. No, the other boxer gets disqualified and laughed out of boxing for being such a woose.


yes Jamius, I do fully understand that fleets logging out as soon as another enters the system is a problem;

Perhaps I should have also said the following.......

I consider the tactic of ordering a fleet to log off the game dishonorable and also an exploit.....it is not an exploit from the point of view of EULA enforcement, but from the point of view as a game player role playing a Pod Pilot in the EVE Galaxy.

this is the difference between the players of EVE when the game first came out and now....the old ones were far more apt to stay ingame and fight it out, and it became a true test of strategy and tactics. Fleet combat in EVE has degenerated so far, that it is now nothing more that a test of which side understands how to make the game mechanics work in their favor, and not get caught doing it. This is absolutely no real test of Combat prowess or ability, and any victories gained by these tactics are without meaning.

I would rather become a fulltime HONORABLE Pirate, and be proud of it, and pursue my career with all possible zeal.

(P.S.: Trust is the most precious commodity in the galaxy of EVE; Any Alliance, Corporation, or Players that would use the fleet log-in tactic to instant gank another fleet OR that would use the log-off tactic to avoid combat I simply would not trust; And if I do not trust in the other members of my Corp and Allaince because they condone these tactics, why ask to join them and go to 0.0 with them?This is why some of us will not go to 0.0, and so many people just don't understand.)

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.01.26 13:28:00 - [327]
 

"Seriously, if all you want is highly stylized "fair" combat, World of Warcraft is still taking new players. It's far better at the "everything is equall, everyone gets their marbles back at the end" style of warfare, than Eve could ever be.

Eve is about ruthlessness and ingenuity. If you are unable, or unwilling, to have either, this isn't your game."


Harry, it has nothing to do with fairness, ruthlessness or will. It's simply about your "look, it's so easy \o/" advice having little practical application.

I think you can very well recognize it yourself for that matter...

Sanaen Eydanwadh
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2006.01.26 14:08:00 - [328]
 

Originally by: Kyrmius
this is the difference between the players of EVE when the game first came out and now....the old ones were far more apt to stay ingame and fight it out, and it became a true test of strategy and tactics. Fleet combat in EVE has degenerated so far, that it is now nothing more that a test of which side understands how to make the game mechanics work in their favor, and not get caught doing it. This is absolutely no real test of Combat prowess or ability, and any victories gained by these tactics are without meaning.

I'm far from being a "beta" player, in fact I'm what- 18 months old? But I more and more often feel things getting that way, indeed, and that's just sad. Well, that's a little off-topic, but still - well said and agreed.

(ah, and reading people who think they are soo clever because they use such "tactics" just made my day. Man, some people seriously need to stop metagaming and to go buy a life Laughing )

Jamius
Posted - 2006.01.26 14:31:00 - [329]
 

Kyrmius all you say is spot on. No-one can argue that log on/off tactics are poor tactics. Have a proper debate over it and there is simply no contest.

Something you said got me thinking too. It may not be enforcable by CCP via the Eula and that is why they have taken a step back from this point. However when you compared the way it used to be to the way it is now and stated fleet battles just don't work it made me think that CCP better address this issue soone or a great aspect of Eve will be ruined and will de-value the game.

In my 1st month of Eve I was genuinely awe inspired when I seen my 1st fleet warp in behind me and fly towards a gate in high sec space. Several BS's, support cruisers and frigates. It just seemed wonderous to me and got me thinking of dramatic space battles with laser, rail, artilery and missile fire swarming the skies in a ballet of desruction. It became a goal of something I wanted to be involved in.

Unfortunately the reality was miles from the dream - lag and poor enemy tactics seen to that. This a game and I play games to be in wonderous fake realities that exceed my expectations and give me +ve experiences I never expected. All the best games do this.

I still play Eve but it is a shadow of what I expected. It is a testemant to it that it's still the only MMORPG I want to play and we shouldn't lose sight of that. It is the best there is out there and does many many excellent things.

But CCP, the moment someone brings out something similar, but done better (Elite Online anyone......Jamius droooools) you will have a mass Exodus from this game.

Your looking to sort the lag with new hardware - I sure hope this means massive space battles will become workable. If you don't address this log in/out problem also and it is as bad as it appears to be then what I see as the pinnacle of what Eve can give us as players, the chance to take part in a huge space battle against hundreds of other players, will never be achieved.

Laura Briggs
Sturmgrenadier Inc
R i s e
Posted - 2006.01.26 14:44:00 - [330]
 

Personally, I'm disgusted with just how much of the community thinks that logging off and on is a valid tactic. It's a shame that certain people aren't adult enough to play this game as it was intended.

At this point I'm all for this: If you log-out in space, your ship stays there, and if you get your ship blown up and you get pod-killed, thats just too damn bad.

Hope you all have good internet connections where you live. Evil or Very Mad


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