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blankseplocked CCP: Why is a Log-on Trap not an Exploit?
 
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Kage Getsu
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
Posted - 2006.01.25 13:58:00 - [271]
 

Originally by: Oveur

Nuff said.


I'm starting to notice a lack of proper communication between the players and developers of this game. I see CCP remain silent on a lot of important issues, and when they do respond, they respond like that? I used to think that CCP were of a higher calibre than those like SOE, but I think they're starting to get lazy due to the game's success.

Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
Posted - 2006.01.25 13:59:00 - [272]
 

Originally by: Kage Getsu
Originally by: Oveur

Nuff said.


I'm starting to notice a lack of proper communication between the players and developers of this game. I see CCP remain silent on a lot of important issues, and when they do respond, they respond like that? I used to think that CCP were of a higher calibre than those like SOE, but I think they're starting to get lazy due to the game's success.


Yeah cause he didn't write a page later on in this thread too further explain cause apparently nuff wasn't said.

Kage Getsu
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
Posted - 2006.01.25 14:02:00 - [273]
 

Originally by: Gariuys


Yeah cause he didn't write a page later on in this thread too further explain cause apparently nuff wasn't said.


His second reply was a very wordy "We're too lazy to think of a proper solution."

Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
Posted - 2006.01.25 14:08:00 - [274]
 

Originally by: Kage Getsu
Originally by: Gariuys


Yeah cause he didn't write a page later on in this thread too further explain cause apparently nuff wasn't said.


His second reply was a very wordy "We're too lazy to think of a proper solution."


Never happy.

Kage Getsu
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
Posted - 2006.01.25 14:11:00 - [275]
 

Originally by: Gariuys


Never happy.


Eh, I've never encountered a log in trap or participated in one, so that's not what I'm really complaining about. It just was a great example of improper communication with players on issues that concern them.

MaiLina KaTar
Posted - 2006.01.25 14:17:00 - [276]
 

Originally by: Malka Badi'a
Originally by: j0sephine
That was a nice log off. Guess it means you "won" ^^
If I have a killmail of your ship, and possibly even your corpse, because of that logoff... then yes. I won.


No you didn't. Only players can win a game. Since you're not a player you can't win.

During a pokergame when you fold then that's it. You don't come back into the game later when you know you will win. You're out. No pot for you.

It's the same in Eve. You've logged out, you're not a player, no pot for you.
OK. This is a computergame so you can actually pull off bs like that and get away with it, but that doesn't make you a winner. It makes you even more of a loser because now the crowd, the real players know what kind of a b* made little cheater you are.

You might have won in a game sense but what's that worth when you don't earn the respect that goes with it?


Guderian
Gallente
Shinra
Shinra Alliance
Posted - 2006.01.25 14:20:00 - [277]
 

Originally by: Terradoct
To the thread starter post with your main char.
To thous who screaming that RAT was using loging trap to kill LD dread - go get some milk and play lego, this game isn't for you.


You call the ones that want a fair game for babies, all the while you have to resort to out of game mechanisms/exploits/cheats to get an advantage.

Maybe this game isn't for you, since you can't play with ingame mechanisms only.

Krakkan
ReDevils
Posted - 2006.01.25 14:26:00 - [278]
 

Originally by: Terradoct
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 25/01/2006 12:46:54
Sorry, wether he knewe it was a trap or not only says something about how intelligent and reckless he is. And if he did yet comes to whine here about logoff traps does exactly the same, just saying soemthing about his spine.


But none of that changes your lameness for even thinking about using that tactic on him. I can honestly say that I have NEVER used a logintrap on someone. Sure there's questionable stuff being done here and there, and I tend to liek people doing some of it here and there as long as it stays in the game.

But logging OFF and then ON to make sure your enemy has no chance of seeing you or dealing with you is not questionable, its the absolute rock bottom you can hit in Eve pvp. Hell it's even worse then logging off to save your pod or cheating on a 1v1.

How you can even think about publicly defending your position is utterly beyond me.


Until there will be somthing like in "Mech Warrior" powerdown core of the robot to preven enemy from see you on radar (in eve it will hide you from map and local after say 5 minuts from powering down ships core) only visual contact can reviel you. Yet this will have advatage from not been spoted, but powering down ships core mean that ship will be drafing in space with 0 shield and 0 cap, after powering up core, shield and capacitor begin recharging.


good idea, corps gets happy, no more using of the lagtheenemyoutsoyoucanshoothimwithoutlaggingbuttheycantdos.hitbecausethewholesystemlagsbutnotyourgangthatloggedinexploit, would fix everything Very Happy

Terradoct
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.01.25 14:38:00 - [279]
 

Edited by: Terradoct on 25/01/2006 14:41:38
Originally by: Guderian
Originally by: Terradoct
To the thread starter post with your main char.
To thous who screaming that RAT was using loging trap to kill LD dread - go get some milk and play lego, this game isn't for you.


You call the ones that want a fair game for babies, all the while you have to resort to out of game mechanisms/exploits/cheats to get an advantage.

Maybe this game isn't for you, since you can't play with ingame mechanisms only.


I do not pvp to much yet, and that time I going to pvp i do not need such tactics. Do not have that much time for it.

I call then that only by one reason, they where stuipid enoth to fall in trap, and now crying and escalating this issue, that wouldn't make any good not for them, not for anyone.

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.01.25 14:56:00 - [280]
 

"Until there will be somthing like in "Mech Warrior" powerdown core of the robot to preven enemy from see you on radar (in eve it will hide you from map and local after say 5 minuts from powering down ships core) only visual contact can reviel you. Yet this will have advatage from not been spoted, but powering down ships core mean that ship will be drafing in space with 0 shield and 0 cap, after powering up core, shield and capacitor begin recharging."

It's a nice idea in theory, but in practice you're bound to have the same people who now say "i have no other way to trap anyone, i need to use logging" .... still do the log trap, this time saying "well powering down my ship removes all my shield and cap, logging off doesn't so of course i have to use logging or i'd stand no chance to fight the people i want to trap" -.o

as long as logging off/on is more convenient than any kind of stealth the game could introduce, it's really no brainer which option people will go for...

Maggot
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2006.01.25 15:09:00 - [281]
 

Adapting that mech warrior idea to login though might work.

i.e. when you log in you have zero cap and zero shield

Would be an inconvenience for those who have lots of ctds, but would make combat ships less effective for 1 minute or so.

Not really much of a problem for a regular player who will be checking mail and saying "howdy" in corp and alliance before thinking of blasting someone to bits.

Terradoct
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.01.25 15:12:00 - [282]
 

Edited by: Terradoct on 25/01/2006 15:21:17
Edited by: Terradoct on 25/01/2006 15:16:56
Originally by: j0sephine

It's a nice idea in theory, but in practice you're bound to have the same people who now say "i have no other way to trap anyone, i need to use logging" .... still do the log trap, this time saying "well powering down my ship removes all my shield and cap, logging off doesn't so of course i have to use logging or i'd stand no chance to fight the people i want to trap" -.o

as long as logging off/on is more convenient than any kind of stealth the game could introduce, it's really no brainer which option people will go for...


Let's expand this idea more. Oveur said that they want to implament that ship stays in game if plaeyr is logoff. Why not make so when you logg of your ship is warping in random far safe spot , and after some period of time ship is powering itself down. After player is login ship will not warp anywhere as it has his core power downed ( moduls go in offline status ), player must manualy powerup his ship. This will prevent ship detection and destruction if player is lagged on login or jumping. Powering up your ship will be the same as onlining POS structures, time that it will powering up ( moduls coming online ) 3 maybe 5 minuts.

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.01.25 15:13:00 - [283]
 

Edited by: j0sephine on 25/01/2006 15:13:41

"Adapting that mech warrior idea to login though might work.

i.e. when you log in you have zero cap and zero shield"


Well, i dislike the logon traps but i don't dislike them enough to desire finding my shield tanked ship stripped from shield and cap in midst of enemies after i happen to crash. Nor i wish that happen to anyone >.<

the earlier made suggestions were better in this regard, imo ^^;;

Asnar
Evil Strangers Inc.
Posted - 2006.01.25 15:40:00 - [284]
 

Originally by: j0sephine
Edited by: j0sephine on 25/01/2006 15:13:41

"Adapting that mech warrior idea to login though might work.

i.e. when you log in you have zero cap and zero shield"


Well, i dislike the logon traps but i don't dislike them enough to desire finding my shield tanked ship stripped from shield and cap in midst of enemies after i happen to crash. Nor i wish that happen to anyone >.<

the earlier made suggestions were better in this regard, imo ^^;;


The main problem IMO with a lot of suggestion, while they do prevent/make harder logon traps, they hurt innocent behavior WAY too much to be viable.

Man Upright
Posted - 2006.01.25 15:41:00 - [285]
 

i can't believe the rage and terror guys actually admitted that they suck at eve.

lolz.

Kage Getsu
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
Posted - 2006.01.25 16:09:00 - [286]
 

Originally by: Maggot
Adapting that mech warrior idea to login though might work.

i.e. when you log in you have zero cap and zero shield

Would be an inconvenience for those who have lots of ctds, but would make combat ships less effective for 1 minute or so.

Not really much of a problem for a regular player who will be checking mail and saying "howdy" in corp and alliance before thinking of blasting someone to bits.



Let's build on that a bit. If you log back in before your ship disappears, you'll still be where you were. But after your ship performs an emergency warp and "powers off" (disappears), you will log back into the game at about a million KM away from where you were. Your ship takes about a minutes to power on all systems and boot up its computers and whatever after the emergency shutdown, before it automatically warps back to the general area of where the player logged off. The player can't override the warp or power up sequence.

Apologies if anyone already put forward this idea, but I think it would be wonderful for the game if log-in traps really are as widespread as it sounds. It can also easily be explained in the context of the game universe as an automatic ship behaviour if the pilot somehow stops communicating with the ship without leaving it properly.

Pretty easily explainable in the context of the game, as something that and stops log-in traps.

Nomen Nescio
Posted - 2006.01.25 18:01:00 - [287]
 

Originally by: Man Upright
i can't believe the rage and terror guys actually admitted that they suck at eve.

lolz.

They have killmails to speak for them.

And they also have honor to admit whatever they do or did. While a lot of poeople are for some reason "shy" to admit on a froum stuff they did in the game.

Mr Bright
Shade.
Mercenary Coalition
Posted - 2006.01.25 18:16:00 - [288]
 

I think removing shields in any "log in power down scenario" would disadvantage shield tanking. I am all for a slightly longer delay between the actual log in if you are adrift in space, and when you can attack anyone. The delay would have to be small (2-3mins) and not happen if you had been online in the last 15 mins. That would let everything happen as it is now for crash, CTD etc - but give any victims of a log in trap more time to respond.

I still think it would be an exelent way to counter the bastardly log in traps, while not casuing disruption to crashes etc. So in summary it would nerf the log in traps while keep other balances as they are now.. especially in fleetbattels etc, where you wont take 15 mins to log back on.

Anyways, just my thoughts.

Tenacha Khan
TunDraGon
Posted - 2006.01.25 18:18:00 - [289]
 

Originally by: Nomen Nescio
Originally by: Man Upright
i can't believe the rage and terror guys actually admitted that they suck at eve.

lolz.

They have killmails to speak for them.

And they also have honor to admit whatever they do or did. While a lot of poeople are for some reason "shy" to admit on a froum stuff they did in the game.


Honor? those cowardly bunch of she ***** ****s have no honor.

They just like to shove it in peoples faces that they can cheat and the devs wont do anything about it.

It should just go back to the way it used to be, one group uses log on tactic, the victims get their ships replaces and the cheaters get a ban. But, I suppose ccp doesnt want the extra work and instead choose to spend their time making more eyecandy for magazines instead of sorting out cheaters that effect the little content there is.

Montague Zooma
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.01.25 22:23:00 - [290]
 

Originally by: j0sephine
"TS, Ventrilo, etc. don't enhance in game communications, they replace them. At least the login/logoff function is built into the game."

You can still communicate with players using regular game chat. In fact, on many ops game chat and voice chat are used together. But on the other hand can you make your ship disappear from scanner, local *and* map through anything but logging out..?


Logging out is built into the game. TS is not. Everyone has the ability to logout. Not everyone uses TS. Fleets using TS are far more likely to win battles than fleets not using TS. TS is not the same as text communication...it's better and faster.

TS is at least as "lame" as logging in and out. But since the majority of players like TS, there's no fuss about it.

CCP won't ban anyone for using TS and that legitimizes it...and the same goes for their refusal to ban people who use logon traps.

Eve encourages backstabbing and deceit. Decry "lame" tactics all you want, but the devs created a game where all that matters is winning at all costs. Nations try to create rules of warfare in real life. Those rules always get broken because, after all, it's war.

Until the devs decide to do something about this "lame" tactic, it's up to the players. Hold a galactic summit. Sign a treaty banning the use of logon tactics. Put aside all your differences and jointly declare war on the corps that refuse to sign. Pound them into oblivion until they agree to terms.

Sounds like fun to me.

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.01.25 23:10:00 - [291]
 

"Logging out is built into the game. TS is not."

You said it already, and i already replied to it in the very message you quote. You ignored completely my question that followed, and decided to repeat again your argument, as if stating the same thing multiple times was somewhat supposed to push the discussion forward. It won't -- we've already went through that one. I can only conclude it's because you don't have actual counter-point to what i said last.

Until you can address it, afraid we're stuck.

Nomen Nescio
Posted - 2006.01.25 23:38:00 - [292]
 

Originally by: Tenacha Khan
Originally by: Nomen Nescio
Originally by: Man Upright
i can't believe the rage and terror guys actually admitted that they suck at eve.

lolz.

They have killmails to speak for them.

And they also have honor to admit whatever they do or did. While a lot of poeople are for some reason "shy" to admit on a froum stuff they did in the game.


Honor? those cowardly bunch of she ***** ****s have no honor.

They just like to shove it in peoples faces that they can cheat and the devs wont do anything about it.

It should just go back to the way it used to be, one group uses log on tactic, the victims get their ships replaces and the cheaters get a ban. But, I suppose ccp doesnt want the extra work and instead choose to spend their time making more eyecandy for magazines instead of sorting out cheaters that effect the little content there is.


It is not cheating untill rules say that. There is no rule saying that.

They dont crack the system, they dont change their game clients, they dont even the first of the only ones who use this strategy. They just the ones who can use it and kill big stuff such that owners of the big stuff cry out too loud.

The "you know who" assaulted poses of "you know who" used drones to trick sentry fire the gm came and concidered this to be exploit. Before it was official you could do that.

Then "you know who" tanked sentries in Yulai all day long and pwn everyone the gm came and ask them to stop. Before they asked it was not exploit or cheating - it was clever usages of valid game logic, but after gm said so that it became and exploit. And all "you know who" were bannend not for tanking sentires in 1.0 but for disobeying the gm order.

Some people dont like local, but they live with it utill it gets fixed. You dont like logon traps, but you will have to live with it utill it gets fixed.

PS
On the other hand personal insult is a punishable offence right now:).

Montague Zooma
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.01.25 23:41:00 - [293]
 

Edited by: Montague Zooma on 25/01/2006 23:43:16
Originally by: j0sephine
You can still communicate with players using regular game chat. In fact, on many ops game chat and voice chat are used together. But on the other hand can you make your ship disappear from scanner, local *and* map through anything but logging out..?


In answer to your rhetorical question, no, I can't make my ship disappear from scanner, local and map any other way than using the logoff function that the devs have provided. One such method is plenty. In fact, I don't see how an external application could enhance it further.

I suppose since macros only enhance things we can already do in game, that CCP should remove the ban on macros? That's the same logic behind your saying TS only enhances the text communication provided in game.

I have suggested a method for dealing with corporations who use the login trap. You can try that, or come up with another idea, or keep arguing here.

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.01.26 00:03:00 - [294]
 

"no, I can't make my ship disappear from scanner, local and map any other way than using the logoff function that the devs have provided."

Precisely; which is why analogy with voice communication programs falls short -- despite similarity of some aspects, in the end these are two different things.

Note, "the devs have provided" this ability as means to quit the game, not to temporarily hide your ship. That's why it's called "Quit" and not "Hide" on the interface, and causes the game to shut down as opposed to hiding your ship...


"I suppose since macros only enhance things we can already do in game, that CCP should remove the ban on macros? That's the same logic behind your saying TS only enhances the text communication provided in game."

No, afraid the logic here is quite different:

* text chat in game: player tells another player "hi"
* voice chat: player tells another player "hi"

* regular gameplay: user spends their time at keyboard, mining
* macro gameplay: user is away from keyboard while the automated macro does the work for them

... the difference is quite easy to spot, i think. Incidentally, macroing from your example does very similar thing to the log on/log off tactics -- that is, provides the player with ability that wasn't intended as part of gameplay.


"I have suggested a method for dealing with corporations who use the login trap. You can try that, or come up with another idea, or keep arguing here."

I provided couple of ways to deal with the issue a few pages earlier, before the thread went off-rails in this whole "but it's right to do it and would people stop telling us we suck if we stoop to it, waaaah" deal.

Regarding your idea though, i doubt it's going to work versus people who will have absolutely no qualms about simply logging off to avoid being shot at... :s

Velvet Ce'Nedra
Posted - 2006.01.26 00:10:00 - [295]
 

Just disable weapons and offensive modules for 5 minutes upon login...should put a stop to such "traps". Would make some situations more cumbersome for scenarios where ppl get disconnected, etc...but nothing that a warp out wont rectify.
If the purpose is to end these non-realistic surprises, disabling offensive modules upon login for a set amount of minutes, will solve it.


Amerame
Kernel of War
Posted - 2006.01.26 00:26:00 - [296]
 

Originally by: j0sephine

Note, "the devs have provided" this ability as means to quit the game, not to temporarily hide your ship. That's why it's called "Quit" and not "Hide" on the interface, and causes the game to shut down as opposed to hiding your ship...



What are you arguing at ? an official answer in this thread made it clear it was a legitimate use of a game mechanism, the name of the button doesn't matter. Even though this use of the "quit" button was probably not forseen at first it's now a legitimate way of playing, therefore an ingame mean of fighting.
You can argue that you dislike this feature, like people dislike alt spies, snipers, WCS, whatever, not that it is not a legitimate way of playing the game when Oveur state explicitely it is.

By the way, random newbies using a logging trap : they gank a battleship fitted with miners. RAT using a log in trap : they destroy an entire fleet including a dreadnaught, that's probably what skill is. You might not like that way of fighting, it might be a dirty trick, but I don't think RAT claimed anywhere to be lawful good knights in shining armor fighting for peace and justice in the galaxy either.

The Major
Caldari
StateCorp
The State
Posted - 2006.01.26 00:28:00 - [297]
 

Edited by: The Major on 26/01/2006 00:31:09
I'm going to sign the Mechwarrior Powerdown suggestion as in theory I like it.

This is mostly because I was an absolutely bast in Steel Battalion on Xbox Live! for parking my VT behind a building and powering down the primary systems to ambush people. Only way I could get kills with base level VTs against the Radar Camoflaged level 2's...

ANYWAY!

I suggest the combination of the PvP logoff timer (a thing already implemented so shouldn't be hard to hook new functionality into) and the powering down of a ship. This also takes some ideas from a couple of other MMOGs like City of Heroes for logging off which imo make perfect sense.

To Dissappear from Local and space in general you must hibernate your ship. This counts for willingly logging off in space as well as those occassions when you want to be sneakeh.

This process takes 2 minutes.

On powering down you are warped away randomly as normal.

Powered down your ship cannot do anything at all. It's cap will neither recharge or drain, the same for it's shields. It's completely 100% static but visible. A cloak will not operate on a powered down ship (yes this means logging off cloaked will reveal your ship omigosh!).

Now if we go RP for a moment we can justify Local as being a collection of Ship energy signatures detected in local space. Your IFF system is CONCORD property and any changes to it would basically mean instant death on entering empire. But if your system has no Energy signature it will not get added to local, cloaked ships still get added as the ship itself is still active under all that sensor trickery. Local knows you're out there but it can't tell you WHERE out there.

Powering up from this process takes 2 minutes during which you can't do anything as the onboard systems reboot, your ship decloaks FIRST making it scan probable (although it's basically impossible to scan probe a ships location in 2 minutes in any system bigger than 6Aus). Your shields and cap will begin to recharge from the state they were in at shutdown. 120 seconds pass and the navicom is online and you can go about your business.

On powering up YOU ARE NOT AUTOWARPED BACK TO WHERE YOU POWERED DOWN!

The big difference is that this is a voluntary process before logging off. There are certain failsafes that detect loss of brain activity of the pilot and will initiate an emergency warp out as normal for crashes and logging. But while the ship has warped out to a random SS it is not powered down immediately in case the pilot just blacked out (IE Crashed) if the ship detects no change for 10 minutes it automatically powers down as per normal and will require powering up when the player logs in. The exception being if the ship was recently engaged by another player in which case it will not power down for 30 minutes as it is in a "high alert" state or something.

The advantage of logging off at a station is clearly that you can undock and be active earlier than a ship in space as the ship is "kept warm" for you.

This is similar in a way to the log off timer in CoH which requires the player stand still and not interact with the game for 30 seconds (I think) before they dissappear immediately. Otherwise you can choose to "logoff now" and you will remain in the world for 30 seconds while the client is closed instantly.

Like jetcan mining the way around this is for CCP to embrace the tactic and make it a part of the game and adjust surrounding mechanics to a point where you get a bigger advantage doing things the right way than the wrong way. In this instance there is no difference between logging off and powering down your ship.

Except that powered down you can still view local even if you can't talk on it Twisted Evil

I also sign the idea for map info. More info = better and j0 is almost never wrong...

Oh and while I'm here: Fix scan probes, add system scanning arrays to starbases and make the Tier 3 Caldari BS a vertically elongated Merlin Wink

Ztang Canary
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2006.01.26 00:40:00 - [298]
 

Edited by: Ztang Canary on 26/01/2006 00:47:55
So many complex solutions presented here...when the simplest would be to apply what an above poster suggest. A timer on ability to employ offensive modules upon login...should be easy to implement.

edit: To TheMajor: Its easy to avoid the system you outline..if some group of ppl wants to create a login trap, avoiding the limitations presented by having to "voluntarily log off" is easily done by simply pulling your network cable...no problem for an offending group to do this...and who could prove they did it?
No, I still think an easily manageable general "logon disability" is the best way...no matter how you disconnect from the game.




Rexthor Hammerfists
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2006.01.26 00:45:00 - [299]
 

Edited by: Rexthor Hammerfists on 26/01/2006 00:44:54
first off, shame on the ppl using login traps, simple.



then - Just Add a logged off Filter in the map, for the last 24h, simple.

Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2006.01.26 00:47:00 - [300]
 

Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists
Edited by: Rexthor Hammerfists on 26/01/2006 00:44:54
first off, shame on the ppl using login traps, simple.



then - Just Add a logged off Filter in the map, for the last 24h, simple.



Thinks everyone should wardec and camp these ppl for crimes against humanity. YARRRR!!


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