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blankseplocked CCP: Why is a Log-on Trap not an Exploit?
 
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Selena Sellion
Posted - 2006.01.23 17:16:00 - [1]
 

Login Trap; When a large number of hostiles log on simultaneously and imedately fly into combat with a pre-scouted unequal (weaker) enemy, giving them no time to react.

Apparantly this isnt an exploit. Certain corps ADMIT using it on a regular basis. There is no countermeasure.

CCP PLEASE EXPLAIN your policy on this; It seems clear it is using an out of game mechanic (not appearing on local while offline) to gain an ingame advantage (surprising a force with greater numbers with no counters possible)


Now This is a tactic used by many groups, but is trademarked by RAT. corp.
(see here for admission link)

They have often used it, in particular one incident comes to mind when they logged on a fleet which had been (before logoff) hugging a gate, just as a freighter enterred warp to that gate with its escort fleet; end result dead freighter.

How can this behaviour be allowed? What counter is there?? Once the freighter pilot saw local fill up, what could he have done (he was already in warp)??


MAKE IT AN EXPLOIT.

Vegeir
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.01.23 17:50:00 - [2]
 

Awhile back they talked about logging in space. I always thought giving covert ops frigates the ability to scan for warp trail signatures or something would be nice. Let you go to where someone logged off and wait for them to come back.

Whether or not it is an exploit is kind of a point of debate. Many, including myself, think it is a rather honorless strategy and frowned upon. But to the degree of an exploit. What you have to realize is to you it is black and white, but in actuality, beyond paper that is, it's very gray.

Let's take a look at a world in which log on traps were an exploit.
A small fleet has 50 people log in at same time to gate and gank them, exploit = yes.

One person who crashed at a gate logs back in as a target is at the gate, engages and kills. Exploit = no... but hard to prove intention.

Some people jump into a system and warp to a first attack ship at a station and kill the person who undocked and engaged that 1 person. Looks like log in but isn't.

The point being all of those and many more situations would need to be analized before a judgement could be made. That means more customer support loss complaint strain and less service overall. You can debate it, but ultimately can it be enforced is the question?

Swethren
Gallente
HOT HUNNYS OF EVE
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2006.01.23 17:54:00 - [3]
 

/signed

Turin
Caldari
Body Count Inc.
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2006.01.23 17:55:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Turin on 23/01/2006 17:56:05
Actually, i thought it WAS considerd an exploit. I have read that several times here on the forums. Report them. The names of the people, the system it took place in, and the time they logged in.


Should be enough for CCP to look into.

And people who do it are lame as hell.

Syrec
Posted - 2006.01.23 17:56:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Vegeir
Awhile back they talked about logging in space. I always thought giving covert ops frigates the ability to scan for warp trail signatures or something would be nice. Let you go to where someone logged off and wait for them to come back.


Yes, but the point of the log-on exploiting is to organize a mass log on that will completely lag out whoever you log on at or warp into directly after logging on. If you camped out where they would log on then you would be putting yourself exactly where their log on sploiting would begin.

Vegeir
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.01.23 17:57:00 - [6]
 

So you want it made an exploit? Which means every time anyone loses a ship in which they didn't see it coming they are going to petition.

Whether it was a log on, jump in, ignorance of local or the additional attempt to lie. There are going to be ALOT of petitions. This will not be enforceable, just water down what time the GM's have which is already strained.

No.. /designed, /unsigned, /whateversaysno.

I think if a solution is to arrive it needs to attack the ability or lack of a counter, not a subjective reprimand on action. That never succeeds easily.

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2006.01.23 18:01:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Turin
Edited by: Turin on 23/01/2006 17:56:05
Actually, i thought it WAS considerd an exploit. I have read that several times here on the forums. Report them. The names of the people, the system it took place in, and the time they logged in.

It stopped being an exploit when you no longer logged in exactly where you logged off.

Quote:

And people who do it are lame as hell.


Agreed.

Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2006.01.23 18:12:00 - [8]
 

1. Put a logoff timer. Each time you log-off disconnected, there is a delay of 10 minutes before you can login. A bit annoying but wont load their servers much.

2. Increase PvP timer in 0.0 space or generally to 30 minutes or 1 hour. They can logoff but wont be safe for a while.

Loggings are the lamest tactics that work. If CCP doesnt consider it an exploit and if everybody does it, you can see these situations appearing.

1. Players get bored, EvE only wastes more time than it should.

2. PvP severely broken.

3. Imagine hundreds to thousands of people logging in and off during peak times. May not crash the server but can introduce lag spikes.

Just my 10 ISKs.

Very Happy

Trak Cranker
Finn Inc
Posted - 2006.01.23 18:31:00 - [9]
 

And how are you going to tell the difference between knowingly closing the app and disconnecting for some other reason?

Syrec
Posted - 2006.01.23 18:32:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Trak Cranker
And how are you going to tell the difference between knowingly closing the app and disconnecting for some other reason?


When 100 people from the same corp log off within 30 seconds of each other, and then log on within 30 seconds of each other and immediately start destroying enemies, it becomes rather obvious.. don't you think?

Lori Carlyle
Posted - 2006.01.23 18:33:00 - [11]
 

Puttin a log off timer would destroy players when they CTD. there are times in lvl 4 mission's i've CTD and logged back on in time to save my ship, with a 10 min delay i'd be heavly annoyed.

but people who use this tactic to there advantage are in my book; makin use of the game, there thinking outside the rules to win.

whats the diffrence between starting a lvl4 and dropin a bookmark to warp back in at more range ? it's thinkin outside the "box" CCP i'm sure did not want the missions to be done this way.



Give a man a way of doing something and he gets bored. give him an objective and he finds his own way of gettin the job done.

Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2006.01.23 18:36:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Syrec
Originally by: Trak Cranker
And how are you going to tell the difference between knowingly closing the app and disconnecting for some other reason?


When 100 people from the same corp log off within 30 seconds of each other, and then log on within 30 seconds of each other and immediately start destroying enemies, it becomes rather obvious.. don't you think?


Actually, you only need to see 80% of the hostiles logging off and you will know. Example, 10 hostiles and suddenly, 8 hostiles log-off.

Evil Thug
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2006.01.23 18:38:00 - [13]
 

Post with your main, pity Veritas member Twisted Evil

Lori Carlyle
Posted - 2006.01.23 18:44:00 - [14]
 

post with your main is one of the dumbest things i've seen on here!. so he didn't click the show Corp buttons.. big deal live with it.

Humans burned each other because of such stupid reason's and lack of proof.. or did you skip history class? FYI if you did, it was called Witchcraft

Summersnow
Posted - 2006.01.23 18:45:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Vegeir
So you want it made an exploit? Which means every time anyone loses a ship in which they didn't see it coming they are going to petition.

Whether it was a log on, jump in, ignorance of local or the additional attempt to lie. There are going to be ALOT of petitions. This will not be enforceable, just water down what time the GM's have which is already strained.

No.. /designed, /unsigned, /whateversaysno.

I think if a solution is to arrive it needs to attack the ability or lack of a counter, not a subjective reprimand on action. That never succeeds easily.



Sorry to disagree...

I do not find "it would take to much of ccp's time" an acceptable excuse to allow blatant exploiting og unintended game mechanics caused by ccp's inability to handle the lag.


minnmirman
Posted - 2006.01.23 18:46:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Lori Carlyle
but people who use this tactic to there advantage are in my book; makin use of the game, there thinking outside the rules to win.


That sounds a lot like not following the rules, or cheating...

Login timer is a good idea.

Evil Thug
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2006.01.23 18:47:00 - [17]
 

You were my sun
You were my earth
But you didn't know all the ways I loved you, no
So you took a chance
And made other plans
But I bet you didn't think your thing would come crashing down, no

You don't have to say, what you did,
I already know, I found out from him
Now there's just no chance, for you and me, there'll never be
And don't it make you sad about it

You told me you loved me
Why did you leave me, all alone
Now you tell me you need me
When you call me, on the phone
Girl I refuse, you must have me confused
With some other guy
Your bridges were burned, and now it's your turn
To cry, cry me a river
Cry me a river-er
Cry me a river
Cry me a river-er, yea yea

I know that they say
That somethings are better left unsaid
It wasn't like you only talked to him and you know it
(Don't act like you don't know it)
All of these things people told me
Keep messing with my head
(Messing with my head)
You should've picked honesty
Then you may not have blown it
(Yea..)

You don't have to say, what you did,
(Don't have to say, what you did)
I already know, I found out from him
(I already know, uh)
Now there's just no chance, for you and me, there'll never be
(No chance, you and me)
And don't it make you sad about it

You told me you loved me
Why did you leave me, all alone
(All alone)
Now you tell me you need me
When you call me, on the phone
(When you call me on the phone)
Girl I refuse, you must have me confused
With some other guy
(I'm not like them baby)
Your bridges were burned, and now it's your turn
(It's your turn)
To cry, cry me a river
(Go on and just)
Cry me a river-er
(Go on and just)
Cry me a river
(Baby go on and just)
Cry me a river-er, yea yea

Oh
(Oh)
The damage is done
So I guess I be leaving
Oh
(Oh)
The damage is done
So I guess I be leaving
Oh
(Oh)
The damage is done
So I guess I be leaving
Oh
(Oh)
The damage is done
So I guess I be... leaving

You don't have to say, what you did,
(Don't have to say, what you did)
I already know, I found out from him
(I already know, uh)
Now there's just no chance, for you and me, there'll never be
(No chance, you and me)
And don't it make you sad about it

Cry me a river
(Go on and just)
Cry me a river-er
(Baby go on and just)
Cry me a river
(You can go on and just)
Cry me a river-er, yea yea

Cry me a river
(Baby go on and just)
Cry me a river-er
(Go on and just)
Cry me a river
(Cause I've already cried)
Cry me a river-er, yea yea
(Ain't gonna cry no more, yea-yea)

Cry me a river
Cry me a river, oh
Cry me a river, oh
Cry me a river, oh

Cry me a river, oh
(Cry me, cry me)
Cry me a river, oh
(Cry me, cry me)
Cry me a river, oh
(Cry me, cry me)
Cry me a river, oh
(Cry me, cry me)

Cry me a river, oh
(Cry me, cry me)
Cry me a river, oh
(Cry me, cry me)
Cry me a river
(Cry me, cry me)

LaughingLaughingLaughing

Xelios
Minmatar
Broski Enterprises
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2006.01.23 18:48:00 - [18]
 

Quote:
It stopped being an exploit when you no longer logged in exactly where you logged off.

But now that we have bigger and more cumbersome ships maybe it should be looked at again. Anything dreadnaut and above has little practical chance to escape one of these log on tactics, and really no way of forseeing a good one.

Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.01.23 18:50:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Lori Carlyle
Puttin a log off timer would destroy players when they CTD. there are times in lvl 4 mission's i've CTD and logged back on in time to save my ship, with a 10 min delay i'd be heavly annoyed.

but people who use this tactic to there advantage are in my book; makin use of the game, there thinking outside the rules to win.

whats the diffrence between starting a lvl4 and dropin a bookmark to warp back in at more range ? it's thinkin outside the "box" CCP i'm sure did not want the missions to be done this way.



Give a man a way of doing something and he gets bored. give him an objective and he finds his own way of gettin the job done.


this one is easy to resolve. When you log out, is you are outside of a station, your ship remains for X time and then warps to a safe spot. Therefore, if you reconnect before the ship warps, then all is well, continue as normal. If not, then some limitation of somesort happens. Be it, relog lock/ warp back at nearist jump point/ 30 second warp back from safe spot/ whatever.

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2006.01.23 18:52:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Xelios
Quote:
It stopped being an exploit when you no longer logged in exactly where you logged off.

But now that we have bigger and more cumbersome ships maybe it should be looked at again. Anything dreadnaut and above has little practical chance to escape one of these log on tactics, and really no way of forseeing a good one.


If they haven't got an escort they kinda deserve to die anyway, no?
It isn't like capital ships are a quick kill.

Evil Thug
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2006.01.23 18:53:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Evil Thug on 23/01/2006 18:53:35
May be its time to turn brain "on" and think : what lone dread doing in enemy headquaters with 50+hostilites ALONE in local ?

May be its time to think about 25 bs enemy gang, arrived in 1v- 1 day ago, logged off, and still NO activity from them.

May be its time, to add RAT members to buddy list ? Laughing

May be its time to use SCANER and figure, that there were 2 dreds, who jumped on cyronosaul field.

You are very funny. Veritas = victims of theyr own stupidity. nuff said.

EDIT : Punctuation makes me sick.

Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.01.23 18:56:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Evil Thug
Post with your main, pity Veritas member Twisted Evil


just because its not classified as an exploit because they can't see a way of stopping it, doesn't make it a valid tactic. It means its an exploit they can't stop (at the moment).

The fact that you not only admit to doing it, you're actually proud of it, not only speaks poorly of you as a person but shows quiet clearly that you are not up to the challange of this game, as you can't play it without having to resort to mechanics exploitation to get by. Grow some balls and try to play the game properly.

Sergeant Spot
Galactic Geographic BookMark Surveying Inc.
Posted - 2006.01.23 18:57:00 - [23]
 

ATTENTION TomB

Please nerf the log-on trap without mercy. Don't put any lube on your nerf bat when you do it either.....

Suggested Nerf:

When logging into the game in space, have an added built in delay, where the person logging in shows up in local, but their ship has a FULL minute worth of warping.

That minute will give folks in the system some warning. Also, for good and ill, the person logging in will have a minute to look at local as their ship warps.

Evil Thug
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2006.01.23 18:57:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Sable Schroedinger


The fact that you not only admit to doing it, you're actually proud of it, not only speaks poorly of you as a person but shows quiet clearly that you are not up to the challange of this game, as you can't play it without having to resort to mechanics exploitation to get by. Grow some balls and try to play the game properly.


See post №17. Posted especially for you Laughing

Jennifae
Posted - 2006.01.23 20:12:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Evil Thug
Post with your main, pity Veritas member Twisted Evil


pathetic.

First, only way RA can gain territory is through lame pre and post downtime POS strats. Now, flaunting their logon traps as their primary pvp strat. Sad.


Gift
Amarr
Loot
Pirate Coalition
Posted - 2006.01.23 20:12:00 - [26]
 

Log-on traps are fine, it's a good way to get around local.

Fooball
Caldari
Posted - 2006.01.23 20:23:00 - [27]
 

All is fair in love and war.

Selena Sellion
Posted - 2006.01.23 20:23:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Xelios
Quote:
It stopped being an exploit when you no longer logged in exactly where you logged off.

But now that we have bigger and more cumbersome ships maybe it should be looked at again. Anything dreadnaut and above has little practical chance to escape one of these log on tactics, and really no way of forseeing a good one.


If they haven't got an escort they kinda deserve to die anyway, no?
It isn't like capital ships are a quick kill.


Avon, in the example I quoted the Freighter was escorted by 10 Battlships and multiple smaller craft. The logging on force was around 20 BSs. For small scale issues of course you are right but when its whole corps / alliances what you are sayinh is WRONG. Even in LD's example in the linked thread they had a sizeable force, but when 30 log in at once "sizeable" just wont hack it.

Jennifae
Posted - 2006.01.23 20:30:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Fooball
All is fair in love and war.


meh, same people that logon trap are the same suspects that usually fight only when they can outblob the opposition. Guess that's teh only way they can prevail. weak.

HippoKing
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.01.23 20:37:00 - [30]
 

why does it not surprise me that a RAT member is continually trolling this thread?

you could at least discuss it, even if you are firmly on the non-sploit side


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