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blankseplocked Noob need HELP! How damage calculated?
 
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Mogol III
Posted - 2006.01.01 20:45:00 - [1]
 

Can anybody explain how damage calculated in EVE?
I mean following:
1) All ammo have properties like:
a)em, explosive, kinetic, thermal damage;
b)basic shild damage
c)basic armor damage
2) Guns have damage multiplifier
3) Skils (implants) add some percentage to the different type of damage.

If we consider the "perfect shoot" (yes, I read new tracking guid), how final amount of damage to shield (or armor or structure) will be calculated? "Basic shild damage" - is it em, exlosive, kinetic or thermal?
So, I totaly lost... And would be really appreciated if somebody makw it clear.

Thank you very much in advance.

DrakeZakharov
Gallente
Doomheim
Posted - 2006.01.01 21:22:00 - [2]
 

Ok ... each of the damage types has a corresponding damage resistance on the shields and armor of the ship in question. The base damage is how much damage the ammo will do assuming 'average' shield and armor resistances.

Damage is also effected by signiture radius of the target compared tot he signature resolution of the turret. Im sure you've noticed that you can get between shots that 'bounce off' , some that 'glance', some that 'hit lightly' etc. The smaller the signature resolution of the turret compared to the signature size of the target, the better the hits you will achieve, although i don't know the exact formula for it.

Once its been decided how much damage reaches the target through its resistance, and how much of the damage remains after the hit quality, you multiply by the damage multiplier, and hey presto you have a hit.

Azuriel Talloth
M. Corp
M. PIRE
Posted - 2006.01.01 21:33:00 - [3]
 

Damage multiplier is a combination of the turret's base multiplier, and increased by skills and damage mods (the lowslot modules like Heat Sink or Ballistic Control). Missile launchers don't have a multiplier for damage.

Mogol III
Posted - 2006.01.02 09:36:00 - [4]
 

Thank you very much!
However, general problem still not clear for me.
Originally by: DrakeZakharov
Ok ... each of the damage types has a corresponding damage resistance on the shields and armor of the ship in question. The base damage is how much damage the ammo will do assuming 'average' shield and armor resistances.

This is something totally new for me... "average shiel resistance"??? How can I find the value of this for each particular ship? I believe, you are not right here...

Originally by: DrakeZakharov
Damage is also effected by signiture radius of the target compared tot he signature resolution of the turret. Im sure you've noticed that you can get between shots that 'bounce off' , some that 'glance', some that 'hit lightly' etc. The smaller the signature resolution of the turret compared to the signature size of the target, the better the hits you will achieve, although i don't know the exact formula for it.

105% right. But in the "Tracking Guide" these are explained better and with figures Very Happy...



Originally by: DrakeZakharov
Once its been decided how much damage reaches the target through its resistance, and how much of the damage remains after the hit quality, you multiply by the damage multiplier, and hey presto you have a hit.

Your are right. It is clear.

So, let start again. Let's imagine the gun with damage multiplifier 2x. Let's also accept that I have no implants, my skills give me no additional multiplifier and I have no modules that add damage (if I will have something of these, it is easy to recalculate IF we will clarify the MAIN question).
So, I make a shoot with ammo (just for example...): em 5; thermal 5; kinetic 5; explosive 5;
basic shield damage 10; basic armor damage 10. OK?
OK. So, in case of THE REALLY PERFECT shoot (let's forget for the moment about tracking guide, signature and other stuff, OK?) how many damage to the shield of the opponent it will cause, in case if opponent have shield with resistance to em 50%, for thermal 50% for kinetic 50%, for explosive 50%?

I will be really thankfull to everybody, if you will let me know your opinions.
Thank you very much in advance.

Naughty Boy
Chronics of ordinary hate
Posted - 2006.01.02 09:45:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Mogol III
This is something totally new for me... "average shiel resistance"??? How can I find the value of this for each particular ship? I believe, you are not right here...

It's a weigthed average accross shield and armor.
Example: 100 shield with typical shield resistance, 200 armor with typical armor resistance. Average resistance to EM damage is (0*100+60*200)/(100+200)=40.

Originally by: Mogol III
105% right. But in the "Tracking Guide" these are explained better and with figures Very Happy...
Except that it is wrong. Tracking/falloff only affects chance to hit, not hit type. In optimal conditions you will always hit, though whether the hit is a "wrecking" or a "scratch" is random. Most people believe that hit types are related to tracking but as far as i know this was never proved. If you miss 50% of your shots, you'll do 50% less wreckings than if you miss 0% of your shots. It is because you miss more often, not because your hits are less good.

Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy.

Mogol III
Posted - 2006.01.02 09:54:00 - [6]
 

Thanks a lot!
Originally by: Naughty Boy
Originally by: Mogol III
This is something totally new for me... "average shiel resistance"??? How can I find the value of this for each particular ship? I believe, you are not right here...

It's a weigthed average accross shield and armor.
Example: 100 shield with typical shield resistance, 200 armor with typical armor resistance. Average resistance to EM damage is (0*100+60*200)/(100+200)=40.


I am sorry, but that does it mean "typical resistanse"????? You can find clear percent of the resistance of the shield for each type of the damage in the info of your ship. Where I can find this "typical resistance"? Sorry again, but your formula is unclear...

Originally by: Naughty Boy
Except that it is wrong. Tracking/falloff only affects chance to hit, not hit type.

Well, you probably right. But this is NOT my question.

Anyway, thank you very much once more.

Naughty Boy
Chronics of ordinary hate
Posted - 2006.01.02 10:05:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Naughty Boy on 02/01/2006 10:27:01
Originally by: Mogol III
I am sorry, but that does it mean "typical resistanse"????? You can find clear percent of the resistance of the shield for each type of the damage in the info of your ship. Where I can find this "typical resistance"? Sorry again, but your formula is unclear...

Typical shield resistance: 0 em/60 explosive/40 kinetic/20 thermal

Typical armor resistance: 60 em/10 explosive/25 kinetic/35 thermal
+ 10% resistance (racial resistance) to armor:
Amarr armor resistance: 60 em/20 explosive/25 kinetic/35 thermal
Caldari armor resistance: 60 em/10 explosive/25 kinetic/45 thermal
Gallente armor resistance: 60 em/10 explosive/35 kinetic/35 thermal
Minmatar armor resistance: 70 em/10 explosive/25 kinetic/35 thermal

That's without any hardening/assault/t2 resistances.

Edit: Nevermind my first answer, that stat in the ammo attributes is stupid. Average shield damage/armor damage is just the damage modifier of the ammo on shield/armor with the following resistances:
* shield resistance: 0 em/60 explosive/40 kinetic/20 thermal
* armor resistance: 60 em/10 explosive/25 kinetic/35 thermal
It is absolutely useless and misleading.
The damage you take is determined by the sum accross all damage types of the products of the damage and (1-the resistance) for each damage type. So, if the ammo does 0 em damage, 3 explosive damage, 5 kinetic damage, 1 thermal damage, its normalized damage on unhardened armor without the racial bonus is: 0*(1-0.6)+3*(1-0.1)+5*(1-0.25)+1*(1-0.35) = 7.1 (9 pre-resistance).

Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy.

Mogol III
Posted - 2006.01.02 10:42:00 - [8]
 

Thanks for the detailed answer.
Originally by: Naughty Boy

Typical shield resistance: 0 em/60 explosive/40 kinetic/20 thermal


OK. My Cyclone have shield with resistance to em 0%, explosive 60%, kinetic 40%, thermal 20%. Thus, your "typical shield resistance" point to point correspond to the data, described in the info about the ship. Shocked Now this is clear, thanks.

Can I kindly ask you make a calculation for my example abobe?
With best regards.

Mogol III
Posted - 2006.01.02 10:45:00 - [9]
 

Lot of fomulas make the topic rather complicated...

So, let start again. Let's imagine the gun with damage multiplifier 2x. Let's also accept that I have no implants, my skills give me no additional multiplifier and I have no modules that add damage (if I will have something of these, it is easy to recalculate IF we will clarify the MAIN question).
So, I make a shoot with ammo (just for example...): em 5; thermal 5; kinetic 5; explosive 5;
basic shield damage 10; basic armor damage 10. OK?
OK. So, in case of THE REALLY PERFECT shoot (let's forget for the moment about tracking guide, signature and other stuff, OK?) how many damage to the shield of the opponent it will cause, in case if opponent have shield with resistance to em 50%, for thermal 50% for kinetic 50%, for explosive 50%?

I will be really thankfull to everybody, if you will let me know your opinions.
Thank you very much in advance.

Naughty Boy
Chronics of ordinary hate
Posted - 2006.01.02 10:50:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Naughty Boy on 02/01/2006 10:58:26
Originally by: Mogol III
Can I kindly ask you make a calculation for my example abobe?

Originally by: Mogol III
So, let start again. Let's imagine the gun with damage multiplifier 2x. Let's also accept that I have no implants, my skills give me no additional multiplifier and I have no modules that add damage (if I will have something of these, it is easy to recalculate IF we will clarify the MAIN question).
So, I make a shoot with ammo (just for example...): em 5; thermal 5; kinetic 5; explosive 5;
basic shield damage 10; basic armor damage 10. OK?
OK. So, in case of THE REALLY PERFECT shoot (let's forget for the moment about tracking guide, signature and other stuff, OK?) how many damage to the shield of the opponent it will cause, in case if opponent have shield with resistance to em 50%, for thermal 50% for kinetic 50%, for explosive 50%?

I will be really thankfull to everybody, if you will let me know your opinions.
Thank you very much in advance.


Edit: Damage caused: 2*5*(1-0.5)+5*(1-0.5)+5*(1-0.5)+5*(1-0.5) = 20.
So, your base shield/armor damage is 10 with those (unusual) resistances but with a turret damage multiplier equal to 2, your damage will be 2 times the base shield/armor damage.

Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy.

Sarmaul
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2006.01.02 11:36:00 - [11]
 

I am going to use a mythical ammo that deals all 4 damage types for the purpose of this:

Mythical Ammo Damage
EM: 5
EXP: 10
KIN: 15
THE: 20

Getting the Maximum Damage

First of all, we need to calculate the most damage the weapon can do. We have the stats for the ammo above, but weapons also have a "damage modifer" (dmod) that inceases the damage. For this experiment, our dmod is going to be 4.5.

Now, we multiply the numbers listed in the Mythical Ammo Damage section by the dmod, and the result is:

EM: 22.5
EXP: 45
KIN: 67.5
THE: 90

The next setup is to apply this damage to the ship.

The Ship

We are going to use a ship with the following attributes:

Shield Hitpoints: 100
Shield EM: 0%
Shield EXP: 60%
Shield KIN: 40%
Shield THE: 20%

Armour Hitpoints: 100
Shield EM: 60%
Shield EXP: 10%
Shield KIN: 25%
Shield THE: 35%

Hull Hitpoints: 50
Hull Resistances: all 0%.

Applying Damage

To recap from before, the max damage the gun can do is this:

EM: 22.5
EXP: 45
KIN: 67.5
THE: 90

As our target ship hasn't taken any damage yet, the first shot will land on it's shields. We need to work out how much each damage each damage type inflicts. If the shield resists 60%, then only 40% damage is applied. When doing the maths for this, it is easier to use decimal values, where 1 = 100% and 0 = 0%. So, 60% resistance = 0.6. To get the remaining amount, we subtract it from 1. 1 - 0.6 = 0.4, or 40% damage applied.

EM: 22.5 * (1 - 0resist) = 22.5
EXP: 45 * (1 - 0.6resist) = 18
KIN: 67.5 * (1 - 0.4resist) = 40.5
THE: 90 * (1 - 0.2resist) = 72

Add these values up, and we get the total amount of damage applied to the shields:

22.5 + 18 + 40.5 + 72 = 156 damage

But wait - our shields only have 100 hitpoints! Where does the other 56 damage go? It gets applied to the armour, but as armour has different resistances, we need to recalculate the damage applied. However, instead of using the original statistics for the Mytical Ammo, we need to reduce them to the remaining percentage of damage that still needs to be applied. To calculate this, we do:

Remaining Damage / Full Damage = Remaining Percentage
56 / 156 = 0.35897435897435897435897435897436 (0.35 for this), or 35%.

So now we calculate the maximum damage that can be applied to armour with the remaining 35%.

EM: 22.5 * 0.35 (35%) * (1 - 0.6resist) = 3.15
EXP: 45 * 0.35 (35%) * (1 - 0.1resist) = 14.175
KIN: 67.5 * 0.35 (35%) * (1 - 0.25resist) = 17.71875
THE: 90 * 0.35 (35%) * (1 - 0.35resist) = 20.475

Total Damage = 3.15 + 14.175 + 17.71875 + 20.475 = 55.51875

We now take this value away from our armour hitpoints:

100 -55.51875 = 44.48125 armour hitpoints remaining.

The Second Shot

Our ship currently looks like this:

Shield Hitpoints: 0 (all gone in the first shot)
Armour Hitpoints: 44.48125 (the remainder of the first shot)
Hull Hitpoints: 50 (armour not yet breached).

Now of course, in a battle a ship doesn't only get hit once. The enemy activates his second gun, and as luck would have it he hits. Now you know how this works (same math for shield but with different resistances), so I don't need to explain it again.

EM: 22.5 * (1 - 0.6resist) = 9
EXP: 45 * (1 - 0.1resist) = 40.5
KIN: 67.5 * (1 - 0.25resist) = 50.625
THE: 90 * (1 - 0.35resist) = 58.5

Total Damage: 9 + 40.5 + 50.625 + 58.5 = 158.625 damage

Apply this to the remaining armour hitpoints and we get:

44.48125 - 158.625 = -114.14375, or 114.14375 hitpoints remaining. These hitpoints need to be applied directly to the hull.

Damage Percentage Remaining = 114.14375 / 158.625 = 0.71958234830575256107171000788022 (0.71) = 71%.

(Remember hull has no resists)
EM: 22.5 * 0.71 (71%) = 15.975
EXP: 45 * 0.71 (71%) = 31.95
KIN: 67.5 * 0.71 (71%) = 47.925
THE: 90 * 0.71 (71%) = 63.9

Total Damage: 15.975 + 31.95 + 47.925 + 63.9 = 159.75

As we only have 50 hitpoints on the hull, the damage knocks it down to zero. What happens to the other 109.75? Who cares, the ship just blew up.

The end.

Mogol III
Posted - 2006.01.02 14:05:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Sarmaul
I am going to use a mythical ammo that deals all 4 damage types for the purpose of this:
...
The end.




Tank you very-very much. Absolutelly clear.


Now I anderstood - I am a stupid-stupid NOOB!


Thanks again for the time spent teaching me.
With kind regards.

Sarmaul
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2006.01.02 14:17:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Mogol III
Originally by: Sarmaul
I am going to use a mythical ammo that deals all 4 damage types for the purpose of this:
...
The end.




Tank you very-very much. Absolutelly clear.


Now I anderstood - I am a stupid-stupid NOOB!


Thanks again for the time spent teaching me.
With kind regards.


np - I was waiting on a full compile of my program and needed something to do :)

Francis Verdictio
BGG
Atrum Tempestas Foedus
Posted - 2006.01.29 13:10:00 - [14]
 

Sarmaul, excellent presentation. I was reading the earlier posts, shaking my head and going 'that can't be right', but you managed to hit the nail on the head with a single shot. :)

...Damn, now I want to get my hands on some of that mythical ammo and the gun that shoots it. XD

Johannes Buckbeak
Minmatar
Royal Order of Security Specialists
Posted - 2006.04.06 14:11:00 - [15]
 

This looks all very logical and clear. My only problem is this - as I have observed in practice, and as is implied by the description of the Tactical Shield Manipulation skill, it seems to be possible sometimes for damage to "splash through" your shields and take some points off your armour, even though your shields are not wiped out. The skill description hints that this may start happening when your shields drop below 25%. This does not seem to be covered by the explanation above, which says that damage only carries over to armour when the shields are all gone. Does anyone know the mechanism/formula for this?

Randay
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2006.05.26 01:46:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Mogol III
Originally by: Sarmaul
I am going to use a mythical ammo that deals all 4 damage types for the purpose of this:
...
The end.




Tank you very-very much. Absolutelly clear.


Now I anderstood - I am a stupid-stupid NOOB!


Thanks again for the time spent teaching me.
With kind regards.


np - I was waiting on a full compile of my program and needed something to do :)



Its been months now and you still havent told us who got the killmail.

Krav
Order of the Redeeming Light
Posted - 2006.05.26 02:41:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Johannes Buckbeak
This looks all very logical and clear. My only problem is this - as I have observed in practice, and as is implied by the description of the Tactical Shield Manipulation skill, it seems to be possible sometimes for damage to "splash through" your shields and take some points off your armour, even though your shields are not wiped out. The skill description hints that this may start happening when your shields drop below 25%. This does not seem to be covered by the explanation above, which says that damage only carries over to armour when the shields are all gone. Does anyone know the mechanism/formula for this?


I don't know the formula, but in a puristic sense, it doesn't matter. I've never lost more than 1% armor while having shields between 0% and 25%. Supposedly, with successive lvls of tact shield manip, less dmg comes through to armor, but it doesn't really feel like it works that way.

I've had my Raven tank broken and tried boosting (draining cap each time to near 0), so I've spent considerable time in the range where damage leaks through, and it's never been very significant. Not until shields reach 0% and all the damage goes to armor, then you start to sit up and take notice of armor damage.

In fact, the leaked damage sometimes amounts to 5 hp on a BS armor. that's a very small amount compared to the total hitpoints of the BS's armor.

To really answer your question tho, while I don't think it needs to be considered, I also don't have an equation and thus can't consider it.

Krav

Sarmaul
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2006.07.16 16:42:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Johannes Buckbeak
This looks all very logical and clear. My only problem is this - as I have observed in practice, and as is implied by the description of the Tactical Shield Manipulation skill, it seems to be possible sometimes for damage to "splash through" your shields and take some points off your armour, even though your shields are not wiped out. The skill description hints that this may start happening when your shields drop below 25%. This does not seem to be covered by the explanation above, which says that damage only carries over to armour when the shields are all gone. Does anyone know the mechanism/formula for this?


Sorry for bumping this post, but no, the explaination I gave doesn't take into account damage bleeding into the armour early. The situation I described can be likened to the targeted ship having Tactical Shield Manipulation 5 :).

As for how bleed-through is calculated, it's one of the many formulae that the devs refuse to release :/

Felcas
Minmatar
Amesha Spentaz
Black Star Alliance
Posted - 2006.08.16 03:50:00 - [19]
 

Sarmaul
Can you please clarify how Base Shield Damage and Base Armor Damage work?
I imagine they are multipliers but I am not sure. Can you confirm this?
Thanks


 

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