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blankseplocked The downward evolution of agent missions
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Posted - 2005.12.25 23:10:00 - [31]

Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
Started attacking Rachen Mysuna: 21:27 Eve Time
Killed Rachen Mysuna: 22:23 Eve Time

I couldn't even kill it solo, had to get a mate to come in an interceptor to web it, only oops! It's immune to webbing. So he just bumped it until I could get in range of my multifrequencies, and even then it took ten minutes of sustained fire from a Crusader + my Apoc with megapulse II and drones and light guns. Yes devs, you have gone severely overboard with mission difficulty. Pls fix :(

Agreed, some NPC's are nearly impossible to kill now. Pre-RMR, i could kill Rachen Mysuna with my raven not even having to reload once. When i tried it in RMR, i noticed that after 3 reloads Rachen was still easily tanking my damage. I had to go refit and it took no less than 3 ballistic control systems to be able to even scratch his armor. After alot of torpedoes wasted (4 reloads) i finally started damaging the hull. Not only that, but my raven is fitted with 6 dread guristas siege launchers, and 1 of the ballistic controls is also dread guristas. How much time would it have taken for a raven with T1 equipment to kill that thing? Could it even be done?
This certainly needs a fix ASAP.

Joshua Foiritain
Coreli Corporation
Posted - 2005.12.25 23:18:00 - [32]

Originally by: mrg29
and all that happens is people complain that they have made missions too hard.

Did you even read the topic? With the exclusion of the Vengance End Boss nobody said missions where to hard, hell theyre easy if you know what youre doing. Not to mention the end boss isnt actually hard, it just cheats its way by being immume for no reason.

The entire point is that CCP is moving the wrong way when it comes to trying to make them harder, the entire deadspace idea is worthless. Its simply a case of 'how can we solve this problem with the least amount of work'.

CCP Eris Discordia

Posted - 2005.12.26 11:31:00 - [33]

I'm remebering that promise Istvaan, so behave.

Please post constructively and do not spam the thread with '/signed' posts because then I'm tempted to press a 'warn for spam' button.

Del Girl
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2005.12.26 14:27:00 - [34]

Good decision on re-opening this thread as it pretty much speaks the truth.

I must say that missions are totally worthless to me now. In fact, I've packed up already and gone back to 0.0. Everything new about the missions is a time sink making the already nerfed benefits even less attractive.

I mainly did missions because it was a quick influx of isk for the needy wallet and it fixed sec status without needing to go far. And it was a good activity to do when you log on with limited time to play or don't feel like doing any ops.

Since the missile system modification (which was needed) I started using a gank alt to make them go quicker (talking about lvl4 here). This put me on par with isk per hour as before and even better once you get the hang of it. Still the unimaginative way the missions were set out, sometime made me log off after one mission.

Now these new nerfs to bounties and rewards and random aggression issues, just makes it all take longer for a more pathetic return especially when your gank alt gets aggroed for shooting an already attacked group (and he's there only to make it go faster, not because missions are omg so difficult) and you have to warp out, leaving the tanker dealing with the whole spawn. It's just so frustrating and lame. Seems like all missions got is time sinks. Well, no thanks. I doubt I will do a single mission in any near future.

And deadspace is bad. Never liked it but put up with it until now. What is it with the incredible lameness of 6-7 tackling frigs and whole bunch of other crap aggroing as soon as you arrive? This doesn't allow for any tactics but fit best tank you can first, weapons after.

Quam Singulari
Posted - 2005.12.26 15:18:00 - [35]

After every big patch the imbalances were pretty much appalling. And after much whining things changed for the better. So in a way whining helps.

It seems to me that those guys know didly about finetuning NPC's. So they should stop what they are doing know and think up a new way to evaluate the implications of NPC changes.

-Fix aggro issues (not all or none, the old per group was just fine)
-Fix drone AI (AI doesn't stand for Artificial Ingnorance, make the prioritize on EW, frigs etc)
-Fix dmg taking (No uber shield tanking biatches from hell plz, those guys can drain their cap too IMHO)
-Fix dmg dealing (Whats the deal with resistances vs default hits anyway?)

Posted - 2005.12.26 15:46:00 - [36]

I have no problems with missions , im never scrambled nor jammed so im kewl >_>

IT Alliance
Posted - 2005.12.26 17:25:00 - [37]

Edited by: BOldMan on 26/12/2005 17:26:52
In fact the tread is far more than a concern from a group of players. When I start to make missions a year and half ago, I feel a lot of fun. Till level 4 and starting with deadspace the mission start to became a job. Tanking is a wrong direction for eve play. When you tank, you have no mobility, when you are sitting duck, you have no tactical options, and finally you have no strategy in these missions. Just take your best cuirase and try to get whole damage from a big group of mad bees and kill one by one in a huge lag. That is not fun, and is not nice for a player.

Also, the reward is crap today compare with what happened in 0.0. If reward vs risk is a rule, than make the bounty in HED, EC-04, etc for 1 milion for a frig. And bounty in marginal 0.0 on outside galaxy same like empire, because risk in 0.0 is from players not from npc. If this kind of spawn (like a level4 mission) it happen to be found in 0.0 be sure is a very (very, very) big reward behind. Not in missions where few insignias are just jokes from devil agent.
A lot of bugs (agro instant, drone stupidity, lag from too many npc pirates, level 2 mission sending deep in low sec status from empire for 1 isk, deadspace with notequal chances on speed, web blocked on some npc) make today missions a bad choice for playing and these must be revised to be viable.

Pineapple Blunder
Posted - 2005.12.26 17:46:00 - [38]

Despite all the problems with deadspace and drones and bad loot, level 3 and level 4 missions were a reasonable source of income to me (soloing) before RMR. I got used to the problems and could handle them. But since the inclusion of jamming etc by npcs, missions take too long and are too risky to be a worthwhile way of making money. Eve likes to boast that players have a choice of careers they can pursue, but missions no longer seem like one of those options. They're combat practice, nothing more.

For now, then, I've packed up my battleship and got out my mining barge. Eve just got a whole lot less fun for me Sad

Kaleigh Doyle
Racing News Network
Posted - 2005.12.26 18:11:00 - [39]

So far missions have gone from monotonous to tedious.

I realize pve isn't a central focus of the game, but why do missions have to be:
Arrow tedius (huge aggro pockets, deadspace)
Arrow time consuming (angel extravaganza anyone?)
Arrow repetitive (angel 'ganza, serp 'ganza, infiltrated, infiltrated *breaks computer*)

..which is actually a downgrade from pre-exodus, considering missions were merely repetitive before. Not everyone has 3+ hrs to do an extravaganza, back to back, over and over again.

I can understand deadspace's usefulness in complexes, but not in missions. As many have said, if you want to hamper kiters, add a ton more webbing mwd'ing frigates and cruisers.

To be constructive, if pve isn't really the focus of the game then keep missions simple, keep the rewards low, and add alot of templates to keep them fresh. There's plenty of opportunity in the eve'verse to create fun and interesting missions without making them 2+ hrs long and rediculously tedius. As Istvaan said, the Angel Surprise mission is a fun mission, as are Gone Berserk, Unauthorized Presence, and Pirate Invasion to name a few. They don't take an hour to finish, there's a nominal reward, and its somewhat challenging for a solo player. make not only your generic local pirate missions, make corporation specific templates that immerse you in the faction/corporation you're working for.

Simple and varied is the key.

Posted - 2005.12.26 19:01:00 - [40]

i seem to be in the minority, at least of people who post on forums, but i think this anti-DS campaign is a huge mistake.

people keep saying they want more variety and more challenge but want to remove the most challenging missions from the game and leave a lower number of available scenarios which equals less variety.

if all missions were non-DS then u would remove any need for people to actually think about setups or tactics, everyone would end up using sniper setups, warping in at 100k and picking of the rats before they can get into shooting range. not only would this make missions more repetitive than they are now it would also remove any semblance of risk.

DS missions force u to fight under conditions u cannot control, they force u to change tactics and setups to respond to the type of mission. i still fail to see what the difference is from a monotony perspective of shooting up 3 or 4 groups in DS to doing 4 separate mission with the same rats in non-DS.

i agree since the RMR patch that aggro groups have got a bit screwed up and yes that does need looked at but to remove DS missions completely would take away any sense of challenge from missions.

people keep quoting the time element of some of the DS missions, well sorry but if it takes u 4 hours to do an angel X solo then maybe u either should go back to lvl3s or get a gang together.

prior to the cold war patch there was a huge campaign to nerf lvl4 missions as the skill point requirments for a player to cope with lvl4s was relatively low and the amount of money players were able to make was causing problems, in addition the situation with torps was pusjing lots of players into ravens. making all missions non-DS would mean a return to that situation, there would be no risk, setups would become less varied and it would be easier for more players to progress to lvl4s making higher amounts of isk which was the main concern previously.

Ruffio Sepico
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
Posted - 2005.12.26 19:23:00 - [41]

Originally by: mrg29
i seem to be in the minority, at least of people who post on forums, but i think this anti-DS campaign is a huge mistake.

Im not in favour of get DS removed, just when the npc's get as challenging as pvp and the odds is stacked so high against you its bad imho. Scrambling + jamming from NPC's side at same time is bad. We simply do not have enough slots on our ships to fit against the changes.

Raven Thorn
Posted - 2005.12.26 21:35:00 - [42]

I don't agree with all that has been written here but Deadspace missions have become a bore. Tactics in these are very one dimensional as certain tactics employed in normal space and PVP do not work. It's basically Tank upto the eyeballs and hope for the best.

Deadspace missions at lvl 4 also take an innordinate amount of time single handedly with stops for ammo reloads and equipment reshuffles a common factor. So much so i Often groan at my agent think not another marathon deadspace mission and refuse. I personally think that CCP is trying to freeze out single players doing the level 4 missions by making them to hard and hence only doable in a group.

Please ccp make more fun normal space missions or more and more players are going to say sod this mission lark and go to 0.0. Whoops have i just stumbled onto a plan here. Confused

Inimical Chimera
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2005.12.26 22:43:00 - [43]

Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
So I managed to get Rachen Mysuna from the mission Vengeance...

Its tank is holding. Transversal is zero, every shot connects. I've been beating it for 10 minutes now. I have over 7 million SP in gunnery, mostly lasers.

Not excessive at all, no!

I spend hours slugging through the first 2 levels in a Zealot. Easy but extremely boring. The last level presents a mild challenge until I've killed everything bar this guy.

Then I find I can't kill him with my Zealot.

OK, I go and buy a Raven with 5x BCU's. And he laughs at the Raven while my corpmates are saying "sorry, we're nowhere near".

Seriously they NEED to put warnings on the mission briefings saying "THIS MISSION IS NOT POSSIBLE TO COMPLETE SOLO IN YOUR CURRENT SHIP". I wouldn't have wasted 5 hours of my day doing it otherwise.

Posted - 2005.12.26 23:22:00 - [44]

Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 25/12/2005 18:13:21
There was a time when I considered level 4 missions fun. Then deadspace was added, and they went from fun to boring. Now NPCs use ECM and EW on you, and missions have finally gone from fun, to boring, to boring and aggravating. When precisely did design doctrine for these things go from "let players have fun" to "frustrate the hell out of players until they get sick with rage"?

Formerly separate aggro groups are now connected; I just attacked a group of cruisers in a Vengeance mission which previously were separate from a nearby battleship group - now, that BS group attacks me - and no, I wasn't using drones, as that's essentially suicide in a level 4 mission nowadays. If it weren't for my obscene faction-modded tank. I'd have lost my ship then and there. It takes me 20 seconds to lock an NPC frigate, which is roughly when I get target jammed and get to suffer through locking it again. Equipping ECCM doesn't seem to affect NPCs' ability to jam you in the slightest, not as if I can spare the slots for it anyway, as the schizophrenic aggro groups force me to tank hard enough to take on an entire deadspace room in case things go Rwanda on me. Some NPCs tank so well that it takes my extremely-high-gunnery Apoc 20 minutes to break through (mega pulse IIs), and even longer if they succeed in a jamming cycle.

*snip* Please keep it clean -Eldo

Does anyone actually have fun doing these things anymore? Does anyone suspect that maybe, just maybe, in the quest to make these missions more challenging and less rewarding, they have inadvertently become noisome drudgery?

QFT & Well Said.

The pendulum has swung way too far, even with close to a 750M (Faction /T2)Raven loadout & most relevant skills @ 4 or 5 and support, some of the level 4's are a BEAR.

If it takes close to 1B worth of gear to do the mission then the rewards should be increased accordingly.

The risk / reward is off.


Berrik Radhok
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2005.12.26 23:34:00 - [45]

I for one like deadspace. And if you have trouble doing a mission by yourself, get some friends to help you Very Happy

Posted - 2005.12.26 23:48:00 - [46]

I tend to agree, in general kill missions have got boring or just plain OTT suicidal. I just finnished "Enemies Abound 5/5" and have to say it was borked. Fair enough, I like the idea of having to destroy the gate to stop getting swamped but I at least like that to work, either that or the minmattar Navy all got fitted with jump drives. To make matters worse It may just be me but lag seems to be worse posr RMR, and when each wave appeared I got lagged to hell just before which resulted in a major hammering. I got out with my apoc and guardian, but the vagabond got toasted when it got stuck in the next wave lag spike. to make matters worse I found out afte getting out that the mission was complete when the gate was destroyed, so unlike other missions there was no need to kill all the npc's, not like this was mentioned tho Confused. I have no probs loosing ships (I can't count the ammount of apocs and zealots I'v lost in missionsEmbarassed) but CCP need to sort these bugs out or else people will have a real reason to get ships replaced after loss in missions.

Personally i think missions need a bit of a rework anyway, a simple notification that the mission is complete (one the stays on the screen and doesn't get missed in the swarm of hit messages) would be a good start.

Posted - 2005.12.26 23:55:00 - [47]

if you want to finnish your missions quik use tech 2 ammo or play with more people, lvl 4 missions where never intended for solo play.

Posted - 2005.12.27 00:28:00 - [48]

Edited by: tenp1 on 27/12/2005 00:56:56
I agree level 4 missions may not be intended to be for solo play. But, CCP have done nothing to encourage team play other than make most missions a dead space drudge that is slightly less time consuming if done in groups. Unless they ever change the standing and reward system so that gangs or corporations get a benfit directly, then they will be mainly solo.
Also, I like difficult missions, but oposing navy missions that give no bounty and last an age for little reward is plain uninspiring. I don't consider spending 20mins collecting cans for the mediocre loot (which I recyc anyway) much of a draw. In fairness tho, the roids in the first or second "Enemies Abound" were an ok bonus if mining is your thing (it was about a mill of kernite and Omber), though I suspect it was unintentional ugh.

Alejandro Zapata
Posted - 2005.12.27 01:58:00 - [49]

Edited by: Alejandro Zapata on 27/12/2005 01:59:17
Edited by: Alejandro Zapata on 27/12/2005 01:58:35
Originally by: Simrod
if you want to finnish your missions quik use tech 2 ammo or play with more people, lvl 4 missions where never intended for solo play.

*Makes Buzzer sound* Wrong answer, go away.

"Posted - 2005.03.07 15:55:00 - [86] by ZRAKOR

Edited by: Zrakor on 07/03/2005 16:08:43

There are a few misconceptions here. First of all, the level 4 missions aren't intended for a group. At first we planned having them group oriented (during the earlier stages of exodus) but we quickly realized that this would be a mistake, as it was too much of a jump from level 3 missions and the neccessary features couldn't make it in.

Of course, this is all relative to the player. Some players need a group to complete level 4 missions, others don't. But until features are in place to make grouping in missions practical (such as the sharing of reward and standing) we won't be 'forcing' anyone to group in missions."

Rock on istvaan, good thread, very insightful.

Deadspace is fine as it adds a template or canvas for creativity that is hopefully on the way from CCP Mission designers. The missions in Deadspace at the moment need the work/repairs. Encounter missions, with a few exceptions, were a tad to easy for my taste.

Zion foundation
Posted - 2005.12.27 02:02:00 - [50]

i have to say that since rmr i have run about 2 kill missions, partly because of lag and partly because pre-patch i could do some missions in 20min which after deployment took me over an hour. and yesterday i tried lv4 duo of death, pre patch it was 2 x 1.5mil bs and with a bit of work and tanking they go down, now its 2 x 1.1mil bs which could tank everything i could throw at them, and even after a refit it took me a while. i really dont know if its worth running missions anymore, its not the most efficient use of effort and time to get isk.

Star Crush
Posted - 2005.12.27 03:27:00 - [51]

The only reason i would run missions is if i REEAAALLYYYYY wanted a faction BS without paying a bill and change for it. Otherwise they are pointless, boring and a HUGE investment in time for very little isk when compared to rating in .0. There really isnt any creativity to the missions system as it is now, not to knock anyone or the job they are doing but doing missions is just a chore atm.

Contact me CCP I'll hook you up with some great ideas for adding life to missions.

Brannor McThife
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2005.12.27 04:44:00 - [52]

I've done only 2 level 4 missions in last 4/5 days...why? Because I don't really like them now.

They nerfed the bounty value of the BS's in Duo of Death AGAIN, making them only just over 1m ISK each...but the same BS in 0.0 is (probably) well over 3m ISK.

Then there was the one mission (Pirate something...) with 5 normal space areas... some with multiple webbers and 6-7 jamming cruisers. Was pointless even trying to use cruise missiles.

The Bounty Nerf of the BS's (again) and the any-range jamming of the Gurista rats makes missions a pain. And when missions become a pain...I prefer to go run around in WoW collecting random body parts from animals.

I sit and watch a corp mate make over 1m ISK from 3 cruisers in 0.0... yet in missions that's a BS that STILL drops frigate loot.

Deadspace to me is a jumpgate to a lockdown entry point. Don't mind the missions, just don't like that every entry point has the rats waiting for you...and now that they can Jam as well... Rolling Eyes


Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2005.12.27 05:03:00 - [53]

Edited by: slip66 on 27/12/2005 05:03:11
If a npc takes more then 30 min to kill by itself it should atleast give proper compensation. I dont even think the best 0.0 npc takes that long.

Eminent Domain
Posted - 2005.12.27 06:30:00 - [54]

Agreed on all 3 points. NPC ew/aggro/tanking as well as drone AI needs some serious tuning.

I won't even bother with the new missions (already had Enemies Abound lvl4 offered/turned down) until issues with unintended aggro and related are worked out.

Some others have remarked on this thread a desire to keep the existing deadspace type missions. I don't neccesarily have a problem with that, but to be honest I'd rather see a larger variety of mission templates that are simpler in nature. Note: by simpler I don't mean less challenging, just that CCP spend less time designing eye candy and time sinks. The key word here is 'variety'.

I also enjoy the multi-wave missions like mordus headhunters, gone berserk, blockade, the assault, angel surprise, unauthorized military presence, as well as its follow up. Also, add the chance, as low as one in a thousand, that the last wave of any mission 'could' spawn a commander version of the main boss. Just the possibility alone would make things more interesting. It already could happen in any of the 1st 4 missions I mentioned.

Basically, I'd like to see less gnats (frigs/ceptors) and more cruiser/bs. I'm not looking for an easy fight - toughen them up (although the tanks on some are already a bit crazy), or easy isk - set bounties/rewards accordingly.

Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.12.27 06:31:00 - [55]

Originally by: slip66
Edited by: slip66 on 27/12/2005 05:03:11
If a npc takes more then 30 min to kill by itself it should atleast give proper compensation. I dont even think the best 0.0 npc takes that long.

Indeed. Can we all say the name...


Kalast Raven
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2005.12.27 09:22:00 - [56]

I don't mind the Bloods or Sansha's or Angels, I bet the Serps aren't so bad either. But large numbers of Guristas must be annoying.

Good luck with that.

Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
Posted - 2005.12.27 10:00:00 - [57]

Most of "*whine ***** moan* nerf lvl4's" came from 0.0 people or piwates and CCP listened and made those missions very low in rewards. Now in RMR, they buffed up 0.0 spawns (30mil bounty NPC's, anyone?) and nerffed missions again. I mean if people lose tech2 fitted apocs on lvl3 missions, something is wrong on the NPC end.

If CCP dosen't want people to do missions, remove kill missions then. Simply as that and have people hunt in asteroid belts in systems. Doing missions in team is a joke right now. In every other MMORPG, it's more rewarding to do missions in team than in solo but not in EVE .. so don't force us to "team up".

Perhaps I will just suck it up and start learning logistic skills on my 2nd account and start multiaccount wh00ring missions. *sigh* Oh the joy to pay 30 euros per month to grind missions .. oo baby! And they say WoW is boring .. yeah right Rolling Eyes

Posted - 2005.12.27 10:37:00 - [58]

I am ****ed of about missions too.

I see things this way: i am not in school to be able to stay home and play all day so if i stay 2-3 hours per day playing Eve i want to be able to make money for a BS per week and having fun at the same time taking into consideration i play eve for more than a year. I wasn't satisfied with missions rewards before but at least with 20 mil SP i could do missions without loosing a raven. Now if u made it harder at least increase reward and offers A LOT so i can do it with a mate and share it with him (cause in this conditions is nothing to share). I don't want to sell BM's or try to buy a faction ship cheap and sell it for much more to make money - i want to afford a BS per week and having fun at the same time with missions - isn't this the whole ideea???

And i see offers like: 8 run hookbills bpc but i have to pay 2 bils. WTF, one hookbill is 80 mils, if i want to keep one for me and trade 3 for the other empire faction frigs i get 320 mils so no f... way, if i sell all i get 640 mil so again no f... way. And even if i was stupid enough how the hell can i make 2 bils from L4 missions?
To be sincere i don't know what to do in Eve, what to start with: Level 3 plexes are crowded as hell, missions are too hard and have low rewards - offers are crap also, cosmos it's fun but u can't make so much money. R&D - no luck, so what the hell should i do?
What are u doing guys???

Brannor McThife
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2005.12.27 10:45:00 - [59]

Originally by: Blanca

What are u doing guys???

Doing quests in WoW while waiting for my Cerberus to be built so that I can consider going to 0.0 to belt-***** rats to make 10 times as much cash out there in bounties and loot as I do in missions...


Ralitge boyter
Posted - 2005.12.27 11:00:00 - [60]

I agree completely with this statment missions need to be looked at.

For the ifrst time since before exodus I decide to do a lvl4 mision again and I to get this lovely Vengance misions. Clear the first few stages without to much trouble then I get to the last stage and of course I have the blood raider version of this so a shield tanked ship as well. Clear the surrounding stuff without to much issues and then the final BS. I load up all cruises (4 of them) and my two torps with explosive as this is his weak point (or so I have been told) and start spaming him...

My tank is holding well enough to take out a very well tanked ship but this one is better tanked than I expected. With my missile skills all trained up to at least lvl3 and T2 torp launchers +3 BCU on my raven this thing is taking the punishment and comming back for more... Ok, so I ask in local for help and get one guy in a typhoon to help out. He jumps in and starts spamming some damage on it. Finaly it does go down but this is just plain silly, a good tank fair enough but a ubber tank defenders that take down a torp in a single shot EW and MWD all on a single ship. Come on at some point a line must be drawn and this is it a ship like that is plain silly.

CCP should be fixing this soon as this is now getting to the point where noone will be doing misions anymore as they are just not worth the trouble. Lvl3's are just to simple and lvl4's have parts that are not realistic for single players.

It seems like CCP has finaly achieved their goal of making single players that do not want to PvP a ratity. Mining is not a single player option (never was), misions are not a single player option anymore. Manufacturing is only for corps as the logistics of getting the minerals and stuff can simply not be done by a single player (well not at a reasonable profit margin at least) research is a scam (always has been) so well thats it... 0.0 Ratting is all that is left and that means you will have the be willing to PvP at least once ever hour or so as you constantly have some idiot claiming that bit of vacuum and thus thinking they have the right to try and kill you without warning.

I guess are best option is to bug report this as this must be a bug and not an intended feature. CCP has claimed that solo players will still have a place in EVE but it seems that their place is to PvP and nothing else. Rolling Eyes

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