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blankseplocked The downward evolution of agent missions
 
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
Caldari
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2005.12.25 17:51:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 25/12/2005 18:13:21
There was a time when I considered level 4 missions fun. Then deadspace was added, and they went from fun to boring. Now NPCs use ECM and EW on you, and missions have finally gone from fun, to boring, to boring and aggravating. When precisely did design doctrine for these things go from "let players have fun" to "frustrate the hell out of players until they get sick with rage"?

Formerly separate aggro groups are now connected; I just attacked a group of cruisers in a Vengeance mission which previously were separate from a nearby battleship group - now, that BS group attacks me - and no, I wasn't using drones, as that's essentially suicide in a level 4 mission nowadays. If it weren't for my obscene faction-modded tank. I'd have lost my ship then and there. It takes me 20 seconds to lock an NPC frigate, which is roughly when I get target jammed and get to suffer through locking it again. Equipping ECCM doesn't seem to affect NPCs' ability to jam you in the slightest, not as if I can spare the slots for it anyway, as the schizophrenic aggro groups force me to tank hard enough to take on an entire deadspace room in case things go Rwanda on me. Some NPCs tank so well that it takes my extremely-high-gunnery Apoc 20 minutes to break through (mega pulse IIs), and even longer if they succeed in a jamming cycle.

*snip* Please keep it clean -Eldo

Does anyone actually have fun doing these things anymore? Does anyone suspect that maybe, just maybe, in the quest to make these missions more challenging and less rewarding, they have inadvertently become noisome drudgery?

Andreaz Kotz
Morne Attitude
Posted - 2005.12.25 18:00:00 - [2]
 

I didn't read it but /signed anyway.

0Virtu0
Amarr
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2005.12.25 18:00:00 - [3]
 

/signs in acknolwedgement

Tyrrax Thorrk
Amarr
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2005.12.25 18:00:00 - [4]
 

Heh I liked the uncensored version of your post.

Agent missions were never fun for me, they've always been icky drudgery grinding for ISK/LP, fortunately I said goodbye to their worthless boring repetitive horror a long time ago, it doesn't surprise me that they've gone from bad to much much worse, I suggest everyone stop doing them entirely.


I suspect angel missions are much easier and less of a hassle now tho, since they use target painters on you instead of ecm and now use less varied damage types ;p

Commander Lock
Amarr
General Communications Headquarters
Posted - 2005.12.25 18:11:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Commander Lock on 25/12/2005 18:12:18
I hate deadspace missions, all of them. I always get excited when a non-deadspace mission comes up, because I can *gasp* actually use tactics by choosing how far I can warp in, allowing me to select a good setup that isn't just about the most extreme tank you can squeeze in...

Anyway, I agree, they shouldn't be as dull and annoying as this. Doing them in groups certainly doesn't make it better, just faster.

Vex Seraphim
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2005.12.25 18:11:00 - [6]
 

/Signed absolutely.

Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
Posted - 2005.12.25 18:15:00 - [7]
 


I blame the crusade vs mission runners; the golden ratio and risk Vs reward. Now its more profitable and less risky rat in 0.0 than do missions, heck I see guys get banged up bad even in level 2 and 3 missions they did quite okay in before.

Have given the npc's the ability to both jam and warp scramble you at once, is a bad idea. Scrambled alone would be a thrill to overcome, but to not be able to deal with it, and end up watch your ship torn to pieces, now that is just frustrating. Wonder if the devs actually test these new changes, and new missions with "average characters" that would represent EVE the most.

Megadon
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.12.25 18:17:00 - [8]
 

So far three people who either don't do missions or didn't read the post have replied. Interesting.

I agree with the post. Drones are suicidal to use in lvl 4 now except under very specific operation parameters. Aggro is broken with everyone aggro'ing or some doing nothing. Rewards are crap, in some cases there being no bounties at all. Several "level 4" missions (Enemies about 5/5) are ridiculous.

What exactly is CCP trying to achieve here? What balance in the game was so broken before, as to require the huge changes that have been made? Some very signigicant changes made without any mention in the patch notes, no discussion, nothing.

And yes, the fun has gone out of many of them. I like really difficult missions, but some additions aren't really difficult, they're just a pain in the ass. Some things have been changed to be impossibly difficult and not fun and other situations have been created to just make things a hell of a lot more dangerous (using drones in missions for example). Yet many of these things have not contributed to making things more fun, on the contrary, it has just made them a pain in the ass.

Does CCP really not want ppl doing missions anymore or what? If not, why the hell did they develop these new missions?ugh

Obodi
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.12.25 18:40:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 25/12/2005 18:13:21
Equipping ECCM doesn't seem to affect NPCs' ability to jam you in the slightest, not as if I can spare the slots for it anyway, as the schizophrenic aggro groups force me to tank hard enough to take on an entire deadspace room in case things go Rwanda on me.


Just a quick note on this: I did the Vengeance mission myself very quickly with two characters. A Megathron as tank and anti-cruiser/frig, and a Raven w/torps as anti-BS. The Raven also had 2 ECCM projectors aimed at the Mega, which brought its sensor strength up to 101, which very effectively prevented any target jamming.

Istvaan Shogaatsu
Caldari
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2005.12.25 18:51:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 25/12/2005 19:04:43
I imagine the average mission runner does not have the luxury of two accounts, I certainly don't - and as repeatedly stated, L4 missions are intended for soloing; I wouldn't want to invite a corpmate to share my suffering and split the already pitiful reward two ways.

We've whined, now it's time for solutions:

Electronic Warfare: All NPCs being capable of EW is frustrating. How about clearly marked EW NPCs instead? When facing a player fleet, you know with absolute certainty that most of the EW you're facing is coming from the Blackbirds and Scorpions, for example; why not have similarly distinct EW ships for the NPCs? You could have your Guristas Interruptor or Serpentis Suppressor or something, a Blackbird that throws out ECM or a Celestis that damps, and can be selected and taken out; specially marked Scorp and Dom NPCs similarly could throw out EW, but let the Ravens and Moas and such stick to shooting.

Combat Drones in L4 missions: Drone behaviour is simply ******ed. I've suggested this a dozen times before and it's fallen on deaf ears so let's hope the thirteenth time's the charm: We need an "engage and return" command to counteract ******ed drone AI. Assign them to attack a target, and once it's blown up, the drones automatically return to you, instead of picking a fight you can't win with a goddamn enemy fleet. If this is too complicated, have NPCs react to drone aggression and drone aggression only - not have them open fire on the drone mothership when they're recalled. This way NPCs still fight back against drones, but don't get stirred into a frenzy by their random attacks.

NPC Tanking: And for god's sake take a closer look at the tanks of certain mission NPCs. My current record for wtf factor in this regard is an astonishing 35 minutes to kill Rachen Mysuna of the Vengeance mission with my highly skilled Apoc. Have them stop kiting at 50km for one, as not everyone uses long range setups to do missions and it's next to impossible to break such an NPC's tank with short ranged guns using long ranged ammo. Refitting in the middle of the mission should not be a necessity, as that is simply more aggravation and drudgery to suffer through.

Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2005.12.25 18:57:00 - [11]
 

Mission is dead... go 0.0 NPCing if you can.

Joshua Foiritain
Gallente
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2005.12.25 19:06:00 - [12]
 

Deadspace was the worst addition to missions ever.

RangerXT
Caldari
Debitum Naturae
THE KLINGONS
Posted - 2005.12.25 19:08:00 - [13]
 

I agree with whatever Istavaan wrote 100%. It's high time that CCP address this serious imbalance and correct whatever it is that is wrong.

Vampire Blade
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.12.25 19:08:00 - [14]
 

They were never fun for me, just an easy way to get some ISK.
Obviously, all that has changed now and they're probably the hardest way to get ISK. I feel your pain, but I think making them easy again will **** the game over once more.

Sorja
11th Division
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2005.12.25 19:16:00 - [15]
 

Agreed on all counts.

Enemies abound is lolastic, never will do that thing again.
Drones are indeed tricky to use, not impossible, but really tricky.
Even a midslot ECCM doesn't prevent from being jammed.
Deadspace sucks.
And rewards suck, which is good as an incentive for pilots to move to 0.0 but frankly disheartening for pilots who earn all their ISK from misisons.

I wish there were some reward at the end of missions, like the Gurista Extravaganza where it is possible to get a dread item (albeit much easier simply running around belts).
Some people like the 'rare' aspect of some modules, but complex camping is not my idea of fun, so I'd love to have a chance to loot something worth using from regular missions, so missions don't look as pointless.

If not for the Navy Raven (that I can't get anyways since CCP has removed my agent from the game), I see no incentive to run missions anymore.

Tyrrax Thorrk
Amarr
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2005.12.25 19:24:00 - [16]
 

Missions need to be made more fun, it's pure PVE so it needs to be entertaining, it being challenging is fine, but lvl4s are supposed to be soloable by veterans with high end equipment, currently they're not fun AT ALL, they're not easy, they're not profitable. Hell they don't even fix your sec rating nicely anymore..

Move all the lvl 4 agents to sub 0.5 sec space, make them profitable, useful and entertaining, not just a horrible grind to suffer through for ISK.

Raem Civrie
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.12.25 20:18:00 - [17]
 

SUPPORTEDED

ShadowStrike
Shadow Tech Industries
Posted - 2005.12.25 20:47:00 - [18]
 

the problem is, there's a lot of stuff that require to have high standings, just think about these jump clones that require your corporation to have 8.0+ standings with at least one npc faction if you wnat to be able to use their station to create jump clones, then there is the refineries, you don't need to have high standings, but you save on refine costs if you do, etc.

now, if kill missions are too hard and boring, what do we have left? courrier missions? sure, not much risks involved, but they are just so exciting to do hun? Rolling Eyes

slip66
Resilience.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2005.12.25 21:10:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Ruffio Sepico


Have given the npc's the ability to both jam and warp scramble you at once, is a bad idea. Scrambled alone would be a thrill to overcome, but to not be able to deal with it, and end up watch your ship torn to pieces, now that is just frustrating.


Thats prolly the most annoying thing. Having to deal with both. If I want that I'll just go pvp. Atleast then I know to just avoid a gank sittuation and move on.

That said this is prolly the best way to force players into 0.0Twisted Evil

Keven
Posted - 2005.12.25 21:15:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Joshua Foiritain
Deadspace was the worst addition to missions ever.



That statement has to be modified:

Disabling MWD (basicly the base for many many fun setups) was the bad idea about deadspace.



mrg29
Minmatar
BarJi
Posted - 2005.12.25 21:35:00 - [21]
 

ccp are in a no-win situation here if i read the tone of these posts correctly.

they try to make missions more challenging and add different aspects of EW etc to rats, more npc types AND btw they have added back in alot of older non-DS missions which now include dessies, HACs and BCs. and all that happens is people complain that they have made missions too hard.

i agree fully that the aggro situation in DS needs to be looked at as it is now far too easy to trigger other groups especially with drones but apart from that i like what they are trying to do with the newer missions.

i have done both enemies abound and in the midst of deadspace, the 2 new 5 parters, and the story aspect behind these missions is good and the missions themselves are tough but afaik lvl4s are meant to be tough. ok u dont get bounties for killing faction rats but as there are now buy orders for faction navy dogtags then u can still make a decent amount of isk from selling these.

Istvaan Shogaatsu
Caldari
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2005.12.25 21:38:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 25/12/2005 21:45:02
So I managed to get Rachen Mysuna from the mission Vengeance within 6.5km of my ship. I'm attacking it with 6 megapulse II with MF, and two medium pulse lasers, as well as all my drones.

Its tank is holding. Transversal is zero, every shot connects. I've been beating it for 10 minutes now. I have over 7 million SP in gunnery, mostly lasers.

Not excessive at all, no!

edit: LOL, it just hit MWD and moved 50km away from me. Now its shields are back up to full, and it looks like I get to spend another exciting 40 minutes killing it. Way to go!

Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
Posted - 2005.12.25 21:43:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: mrg29
ccp are in a no-win situation here if i read the tone of these posts correctly.

they try to make missions more challenging and add different aspects of EW etc to rats, more npc types AND btw they have added back in alot of older non-DS missions which now include dessies, HACs and BCs. and all that happens is people complain that they have made missions too hard.

i agree fully that the aggro situation in DS needs to be looked at as it is now far too easy to trigger other groups especially with drones but apart from that i like what they are trying to do with the newer missions.

i have done both enemies abound and in the midst of deadspace, the 2 new 5 parters, and the story aspect behind these missions is good and the missions themselves are tough but afaik lvl4s are meant to be tough. ok u dont get bounties for killing faction rats but as there are now buy orders for faction navy dogtags then u can still make a decent amount of isk from selling these.


They should imho either remove rats ability to jam, or warpscramble. Either way would give the player a chance to get away. When you are both jammed and scrambled you are just a pod waiting to happen. It brings PVE to close to PVP.

Nycktail
Posted - 2005.12.25 21:46:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Joshua Foiritain
Deadspace was the worst addition to missions ever.


I agree. What was the point of that? nerf range kiting? Why not just add more interceptors with webs.

Oh. Wait.

Caldorous
Gallente
Posted - 2005.12.25 21:48:00 - [25]
 

"The missions need to be fun"

Define "fun" and make an example of mission after being done 10 times its still fun. Rolling Eyes

Joshua Foiritain
Gallente
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2005.12.25 22:03:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 25/12/2005 22:10:02
Originally by: Keven
Originally by: Joshua Foiritain
Deadspace was the worst addition to missions ever.



That statement has to be modified:

Disabling MWD (basicly the base for many many fun setups) was the bad idea about deadspace.

Actually im fine with that, i never use MWD's or abs anyway. Its the entire setup behind deadspace that i hate. the only reason deadspace was made was to overcome players, AI in eve is horrible, everyone knows it is and everyone knows its something that cant change.

So how do you get around that and offer the players an interesting experience? Well nerfing the players is one option, remove their MWD so they cant Kite, make them enter the mission trough a gate and place webbers on the entry point so they cant use sniping setups.

Not to mention the lovely new addition "This NPC is immumine to all forms of electronic warfore for no real reason other giving it a small chance of survivial", immune to target jamming? Fine by me but making them immume to webbers and target painters is just stupid. Mad Take the vengance mission for example, its not a difficult one to do. Pre-RMR the endboss took some time to kill but as long as i kept him webbed he couldnt MWD away and he would die. Now that bastard outspeeds me untill we reach 150km, by which time im al moast trough his shield tank, he then turns around and mwds right back to center. By the time i get there his tank is back to 100%. YEAH NICE GOING CCP! Mad

Then theres the lag-blobs of NPCs. Id much rather fight 1x 2 million isk battleship with 2 support frigs with the firepower of 1x 1mill isk bs, 9x 100k cruisers and 5x 20k frigates then the entire blob of them. In the end the mission would be equally difficult, hell give them Ewar powers and Scrambling powers all in one. Id rather spend 30 minutes duelling 2 battleships for half the reward then spending an hour cleaning out 2 deadspace levels of annoying cruisera and frigates that pose noi threats regardeless of their blob size. Sad

Then theres of course the 'Random' mission selector, i mean come on? How hard is it to create a semi-functional random number generator that doesnt generate the same number 4 times in a row 5 times a week? Of course, i dont mind it giving me Infiltraded Outposts several times in a row, nice lps and nice drone loot. Giving me silcence the informant after ive just rejected it is stupid though.

To conclude; I stopped doing missions for fun when deadspace came out, these days i just do them to fund more interesting parts of eve and of course for LPs offers.

Istvaan Shogaatsu
Caldari
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2005.12.25 22:03:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 25/12/2005 22:10:18
Quote:
Define "fun" and make an example of mission after being done 10 times its still fun.
Read my previous post. It is an example of "not fun".

The missions I find genuinely fun are the ones without aggro groups, without worthless goddamn deadspace, and ideally the ones that come in waves. Gone Berserk, that other one, Angel Surprise? These are FUN missions. I could do those over and over.

Megadon
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.12.25 22:17:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: mrg29
ccp are in a no-win situation here if i read the tone of these posts correctly.

they try to make missions more challenging and add different aspects of EW etc to rats, more npc types AND btw they have added back in alot of older non-DS missions which now include dessies, HACs and BCs. and all that happens is people complain that they have made missions too hard.

i agree fully that the aggro situation in DS needs to be looked at as it is now far too easy to trigger other groups especially with drones but apart from that i like what they are trying to do with the newer missions.

i have done both enemies abound and in the midst of deadspace, the 2 new 5 parters, and the story aspect behind these missions is good and the missions themselves are tough but afaik lvl4s are meant to be tough. ok u dont get bounties for killing faction rats but as there are now buy orders for faction navy dogtags then u can still make a decent amount of isk from selling these.


No, they are not in a no win situation. If missions paid out an amount that was commensurate with their difficulty and/or length of time required to do them, you would hear a lot less whining about them being difficult. The risk vs reward maxim holds true. The bottom line is that the risk and time you have to invest is way out of proportion to the reward, so you have people *****ing. It is not that complicated.

The 5/5 enemies abound is a group mission. Make the rewards worth it for a group to do and worth risking the many hundreds of millions of isk worth of ships as well as investing several hours. End of story.

Make other missions worth the risk and the pain in the ass. End of story. Many are not now. If they are, people will not ***** about difficulty as they are now.

Fix the AI on the drones so they don't insta aggro an entire level, or give options such as attack and return to drone bay.

It's really not a complicated problem.

Istvaan Shogaatsu
Caldari
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2005.12.25 22:31:00 - [29]
 

Started attacking Rachen Mysuna: 21:27 Eve Time
Killed Rachen Mysuna: 22:23 Eve Time

I couldn't even kill it solo, had to get a mate to come in an interceptor to web it, only oops! It's immune to webbing. So he just bumped it until I could get in range of my multifrequencies, and even then it took ten minutes of sustained fire from a Crusader + my Apoc with megapulse II and drones and light guns. Yes devs, you have gone severely overboard with mission difficulty. Pls fix :(

Palthos
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2005.12.25 22:48:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Joshua Foiritain
Deadspace was the worst addition to missions ever.

Damn straight. So is the fact that all non-deadspace kill missions are getting removed in kali.


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