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Lonerz
Posted - 2005.12.16 13:01:00 - [1]
 

What do they do..

I know they don't affect your "day to day" res. You have to have passive or active hardeners... But I was messing with an Energized Basic adaptive and saw no bonus..they do not count as passive? What am I missing about these new skills?

Renault
Forward Thinking Industries
Universal Consortium
Posted - 2005.12.16 16:37:00 - [2]
 

I, as well, would like to know exactly how these new skills work, and their impact on the comparative benefits of active vs. passive hardeners.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2005.12.16 16:45:00 - [3]
 

They don't affect you if you don't have any hardeners

They don't affect you if you have active hardeners that are turned on.

They do affect you if you have passive hardeners or active ones that are turned off.

krendos
Minmatar Research and Trading Corp
P0WER 0F TW0
Posted - 2005.12.16 16:50:00 - [4]
 

if you have a passive on that's at 40% then the new skill will give you 5% extra per level meaning @ level 5 you passive would give you 50%.

If you have an active one on that gave you say 50% then the new skill will give you 3% per level when it is in-active meaning you would get an armor bonus of 7.5% with the skill @ 5 (remember In-active only)

passive = 5% per level

in-active active = 3% per level

Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
The Initiative.
Posted - 2005.12.16 18:27:00 - [5]
 

Got a True Sansha passive Magnetic for 25mill....should up that to 40mill


I also know of the same one that is SOMEHOW on teh market for 10mill on a 90day wait...not going to tell what region, but I know what Im goign to get when my escrow is done.

Xeaon
Minmatar
Lollipops for Rancors
REIGN Alliance
Posted - 2005.12.16 23:55:00 - [6]
 

This skill doesn't seem to increase passive resistance by much atall sadly, When using a Magnetic plating II, which gives resistance -25% kinetic, with kinetic armor compensation at level one applied it just gives -26.25%. Hardly an impressive increase for something that's supposed to add 5% resist.

On a jaguar this gives me 44.6875% kinetic resist instead of the 43.75% resist I would have without the skill at lvl 1. Hmm.

Darpz
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2005.12.17 00:40:00 - [7]
 

the big help on these is on the adaptive nanos, with lvl 5 on all of them you'll have 25% resist on the mod instead of 20% which should defenatly make them useful considering with the new stacking penalty 3 of those with the skills at lvl 4 would make it better than a standard 3 slot tank (exp kinetic thermal) with no cap use

Egoblast
Caldari
Icarus' Wings
Z.E.R.G
Posted - 2005.12.17 20:48:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Xeaon
This skill doesn't seem to increase passive resistance by much atall sadly, When using a Magnetic plating II, which gives resistance -25% kinetic, with kinetic armor compensation at level one applied it just gives -26.25%. Hardly an impressive increase for something that's supposed to add 5% resist.

On a jaguar this gives me 44.6875% kinetic resist instead of the 43.75% resist I would have without the skill at lvl 1. Hmm.

it adds 5% per level to the resist of the hardner, not overall resists!
lest see 5% of 25 is... you got it 1.25
now add em together... and we get OMG 26.25% Rolling Eyes

Scrofalitic One
X-Rated
Viewer Discretion Advised
Posted - 2005.12.18 02:51:00 - [9]
 

Does it only work on hardeners, or would it work on (for example) Damage Control, or Adaptive Nano Plating?

Shinca
Posted - 2005.12.18 15:54:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Scrofalitic One
Does it only work on hardeners, or would it work on (for example) Damage Control, or Adaptive Nano Plating?

it works with armor hardeners, resistance plating and energized plating but not with damage controls

Muntz
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2005.12.19 02:12:00 - [11]
 

um, does anyone actually use damage controls?

Caldorous
Gallente
Posted - 2005.12.19 02:32:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Darpz
the big help on these is on the adaptive nanos, with lvl 5 on all of them you'll have 25% resist on the mod instead of 20% which should defenatly make them useful considering with the new stacking penalty 3 of those with the skills at lvl 4 would make it better than a standard 3 slot tank (exp kinetic thermal) with no cap use


Nice!, pasive tanking modules with the ability to tank of the invulnerability fields but with no cap usage Cool, a pity that they need a load of skills (2024 mil sp Embarassed)

Kipkruide
Gallente
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2005.12.19 08:53:00 - [13]
 

the good passives are very nice now, with the skills maxxed you get 50% res out of a ts energized, for no power usage. 30% out of invul fields, though their stacking penalty kick's in earlier. not to mention the really good commander stuff.

Jim Steele
Dead By Dawn
Posted - 2005.12.19 09:32:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Got a True Sansha passive Magnetic for 25mill....should up that to 40mill
The base resistance on these is 30% right? whats that add up to with the armour skill at level 4?

Just wondered if a 55% active is better?

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2005.12.19 10:53:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Jim Steele
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Got a True Sansha passive Magnetic for 25mill....should up that to 40mill
The base resistance on these is 30% right? whats that add up to with the armour skill at level 4?

Just wondered if a 55% active is better?


less CPU and no cap usage.

imho it's good for Afrigs

Sable Moran
Gallente
Moran Light Industries
Posted - 2005.12.19 11:27:00 - [16]
 

Basically with these new resistance skills you get almost the same benefits with passive resistance modules than with their active equivalents but with lesser resourses. Less ISK, less CPU, less cap required (more PG required though in some cases, but in usually this is not an issue).

Derimas II
Dark Centuri Inc.
Firmus Ixion
Posted - 2005.12.19 12:19:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Muntz
um, does anyone actually use damage controls?


um, have you even looked at them since the patch Rolling Eyes

Bournie
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2005.12.19 12:41:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Muntz
um, does anyone actually use damage controls?
I do since the patch got 50% on each resist of structure 8)

Kipkruide
Gallente
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2005.12.19 13:49:00 - [19]
 

actually hull resistance is not in since it was too difficult to implement

Shayla Sh'inlux
Eve Space Exploration Guild
Posted - 2005.12.19 14:24:00 - [20]
 

The new damage control is a shield tankers dream... A lowslot module that improves a midslot tank's resist.

*Yay*

IMO the new armor plate/shield hardner resist skills are useless. An activated hardner is better than a passive on everything that's not a frigate and frigates getting 5% more effective armor is not gonna help them much, really.

With the skills all trained to lvl 5 (which is 2mil skillpoints btw) three energized adaptive nano's give *slightly* less resistances than standard 50% activated ones with the added bonus of some EM resist. This is a guess based on fitting 3 of them without the skills since I don't know the new stacking penalty formula yet.

Sure, you safe some cpu and cap, but did anyone ever even notice the cap use of hardners on a cruiser or bigger? The 10 cpu per hardner safed might be a factor, but then again, you can fit the hardners perfectly fine as it is. And then there's always N-Types....

If the skills gave like a flat 2% or 3% resist on base resists per level, then yes, they might be worth it. At lvl 5 it would work out as a free damage control.

As it stands, it's a total waste of skillpoints. IMO of course.

TheMoog
Caldari
Tarnak inc.
Coalition of Carebear Killers
Posted - 2005.12.19 16:38:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
The new damage control is a shield tankers dream... A lowslot module that improves a midslot tank's resist.

*Yay*

IMO the new armor plate/shield hardner resist skills are useless. An activated hardner is better than a passive on everything that's not a frigate and frigates getting 5% more effective armor is not gonna help them much, really.

With the skills all trained to lvl 5 (which is 2mil skillpoints btw) three energized adaptive nano's give *slightly* less resistances than standard 50% activated ones with the added bonus of some EM resist. This is a guess based on fitting 3 of them without the skills since I don't know the new stacking penalty formula yet.

Sure, you safe some cpu and cap, but did anyone ever even notice the cap use of hardners on a cruiser or bigger? The 10 cpu per hardner safed might be a factor, but then again, you can fit the hardners perfectly fine as it is. And then there's always N-Types....

If the skills gave like a flat 2% or 3% resist on base resists per level, then yes, they might be worth it. At lvl 5 it would work out as a free damage control.

As it stands, it's a total waste of skillpoints. IMO of course.


Fact is, on my Domi, 4 adaptive nano membranes T2 are way better than 4 active hardeners.

And it get even better with the new armor resist skills.

Shayla Sh'inlux
Eve Space Exploration Guild
Posted - 2005.12.19 19:33:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Shayla Sh''inlux on 19/12/2005 19:36:04
That's interesting as with the new stacking penalty the fourth module you fit is totally pointless to fit. According to you, that means that three energized plates is 'way better' than four activated hardners. If you don't have the skills trained yet it also means it already should have been that way pre-RMR which was simply not the case.

I find it also hard to believe four of those modules put your EM resist at 'way over' 80% (which is what an active hardner does).

In fact, I'm sitting in a Dominix atm with four of those things fitted and I get

Thermal - 64,1%
Kinetic - 64,1%
Explosive - 50,3%
EM - 77,9%

Three of those things give me:

Thermal - 61,9%
Kinetic - 61,9%
Explosive - 47,3%
EM - 76,5%

Whereas three activated hardners get me:

Thermal - 70,8%
Kinetic - 70,8%
Explosive - 59,5%
EM - 60% (adding a t2 hardner would put it at 82,5%)

Granted, I don't have the armor hardening skills because I think they're useless. I doubt after training them to 5 (again, that's 2 mil skillpoints) would push thermal resist for example over 71% with three of those adaptives fitted. And even if it does, it won't be a lot more (maybe 72-73%). Is that really worth ~6 weeks of training? I don't think so.

Also, try stuff out before you make up numbers.

Mustafa Wilson
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2005.12.19 21:26:00 - [23]
 


I noticed that energized plating, although not an activated hardener, receives only a 3% resistance bonus. I was under the impression initially that I would get the 5% bonus intended for other passive armor upgrades, but that seems not to be the case.

Eliana Kalina
Posted - 2005.12.19 23:37:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
Edited by: Shayla Sh''inlux on 19/12/2005 19:36:04
That's interesting as with the new stacking penalty the fourth module you fit is totally pointless to fit. According to you, that means that three energized plates is 'way better' than four activated hardners. If you don't have the skills trained yet it also means it already should have been that way pre-RMR which was simply not the case.

I find it also hard to believe four of those modules put your EM resist at 'way over' 80% (which is what an active hardner does).

In fact, I'm sitting in a Dominix atm with four of those things fitted and I get

Thermal - 64,1%
Kinetic - 64,1%
Explosive - 50,3%
EM - 77,9%

Three of those things give me:

Thermal - 61,9%
Kinetic - 61,9%
Explosive - 47,3%
EM - 76,5%

Whereas three activated hardners get me:

Thermal - 70,8%
Kinetic - 70,8%
Explosive - 59,5%
EM - 60% (adding a t2 hardner would put it at 82,5%)

Granted, I don't have the armor hardening skills because I think they're useless. I doubt after training them to 5 (again, that's 2 mil skillpoints) would push thermal resist for example over 71% with three of those adaptives fitted. And even if it does, it won't be a lot more (maybe 72-73%). Is that really worth ~6 weeks of training? I don't think so.

Also, try stuff out before you make up numbers.



Sorry to have make up numbers, as I was at work, and not in my Domi while writing these lines.

I've rechecked it again, and here's my results with the skills at lvl 2 (5h training total):

4x T1 Active hardeners:

EM: 80%
EX: 55%
KIN: 67.5%
TH: 67.5%

3x T2 adaptive nano membrane:

EM: 77.93%
EX: 50.34%
KIN: 64.14%
TH: 64.14%

4x T2 adaptive nano membrane:

EM: 79.31%
EX: 53.44%
KIN: 66.37%
TH: 66.37%

So, with all the skills at lvl 2, the nano membranes give slightly the same resists as 4 active hardeners.

Pros: you save 6 cap/sec for the same resists, and same slot usage.

Cons: The active mods are T1, the passive are T2... and the cost way much.

It is in fact not "way better", exept for the cap you save.
With T2 active mods you can get better resist for less than 6 cap/s.


I found out that the best layout using 4 slots would be this one:

1 T2 nano + 3 active hardeners (EX, KIN, TH):

EM: 68%
EX: 63.6%
KIN: 73.71%
TH: 73.71%

Ok, it's a tad low on EM, but if you know what you're facing, you can always switch one of the actives for a EM active. With T2 mods, those numbers would be even higher.

I will train those skills up a few level and and see if it makes a big deal, but I sure won't train then at lvl 5 anytime soon. Wink

TheMoog
Caldari
Tarnak inc.
Coalition of Carebear Killers
Posted - 2005.12.19 23:37:00 - [25]
 

Damn alt, that was me ^^

Shayla Sh'inlux
Eve Space Exploration Guild
Posted - 2005.12.20 09:26:00 - [26]
 

So, in effect training the skills to lvl 2 has gained you a net result of around 3% extra resist all when fitting three adaptive membranes.

A natural assumption would be that training all those skills to lvl 4 would mean a net 6% gain compared to the same fitting without those skills. Woopdeedoo. Plus it's still lower resists than t1 activated hardners.

I think we already established that the issue of cap use of activated hardners is non-existant on cruisers or BS. That leaves us with frigates to compare. Frigs generally don't exactly have slots to fit three of these things. Heck, I run out of cpu/grid all the time to even fit ONE. Let's be generous and say that ONE hardner with skills trained to 4 gives 2% extra resist all compared to the same hardner without those skills. Again, I ask you, is that worth training a total of 8 ranks to lvl 4?

As a corp mate of mine said: 'If you train the skill to lvl 5 and fit a passive faction hardner it's as good as a t1 active hardner'.

I still think they're useless and not worth training. If it were just one skill, maybe. If it would give a flat 3% base resist per lvl, probably. As it is, definately not.

I might get them trained a few lvls on Sisi to see if there's any notable difference.

Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
Posted - 2005.12.20 10:17:00 - [27]
 

I'll give a example:

Lets say I got a mod that gives me 22.5% to all, and my resists are at 60% all already. Training up those 4 rank 2s to lvl 5 gives me 28.125% to all.

Without skills my resist go up to 69% taking 31% damage.
With skills my resist go up to 71,25% taking 28.75% damage.

With skills I take 92.7% of the damage of no skills. Worth the traiing? That's up to you. But I'm taking them to lvl 5 all.

Shayla Sh'inlux
Eve Space Exploration Guild
Posted - 2005.12.20 10:50:00 - [28]
 

So in your example you take a whopping 7,1% less damage then the one without the skills...

So you have 7,1% more effective armor hitpoints. Using a pre-RMR plated frigate, which has around 1400 hp's, that's an extra 108 hitpoints. Or, at most one extra salvo from my light ion blaster II.

And you trained 2mil skillpoints for that. Meanwhile someone else used the same 2mil skillpoints to train something useful, let's say surgical strike 5, rapid fire 5 and motion prediction 5, which nets 9,25% extra damage not accounting for motion prediction lvl 5.

Go ahead and take em to lvl 5.


Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
Posted - 2005.12.20 11:21:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
So in your example you take a whopping 7,1% less damage then the one without the skills...

So you have 7,1% more effective armor hitpoints. Using a pre-RMR plated frigate, which has around 1400 hp's, that's an extra 108 hitpoints. Or, at most one extra salvo from my light ion blaster II.

And you trained 2mil skillpoints for that. Meanwhile someone else used the same 2mil skillpoints to train something useful, let's say surgical strike 5, rapid fire 5 and motion prediction 5, which nets 9,25% extra damage not accounting for motion prediction lvl 5.

Go ahead and take em to lvl 5.




Let's say, surgical strike 5: check, rapid fire 5: check, motion prediction 5: check, med blaster spec 5: check. Anything else you can think that improves my ship in any noticeable way: check. Maxed out deimos that does enough damage to make ganking battleship look like weak damage dealers: check. Weakpoint on said deimos: no tank to speak off, and anythign that helps is worth it's weight in gold: check.

Shayla Sh'inlux
Eve Space Exploration Guild
Posted - 2005.12.20 14:40:00 - [30]
 

Geez, so that someone else trained combat drone operation 5 and interfacing 5 and some random rank 1 skill and now does 25% more damage with his drones instantly negating the 7% armor advantage you had.

Saying you already have SS 5 and RF 5 is a pointless argument and you know it.


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