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duple
Posted - 2005.12.08 17:43:00 - [1]
 

Are we due to get any new learning books.

Deja Thoris
Invicta.
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2005.12.08 18:23:00 - [2]
 

I hope not.

"Learning" for months so you can "learn" faster only makes sense to people who are complete nutjobs imo.Mad

Gronsak
Amarr
Posted - 2005.12.08 19:22:00 - [3]
 

come on, give us one more set :) me lub u guys long time if u do


this hurts no one and with the new rank 14 eect skills we need anotehr +4 in attributes

Deja Thoris
Invicta.
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2005.12.08 20:00:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Gronsak
come on, give us one more set :) me lub u guys long time if u do


this hurts no one and with the new rank 14 eect skills we need anotehr +4 in attributes


But by the time you have trained up the learning you could have trained the rank 14 skill anywayMad

husk harn
Posted - 2005.12.08 22:35:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: husk harn on 08/12/2005 22:36:16
deja noob
read something about the skilling time and why learning skills are usefull



Radix Salvilines
legion industries ltd
AAA Citizens
Posted - 2005.12.08 22:42:00 - [6]
 

I already made a topic with following ideas. And i think if someone is such a maniac to train them why not :)

1) more learning skills.
There should be an elite skills and super elite learning skills. How can that work.

Elite skills will add +2 to attribute per level... its not that much having in mind requirements for that kind of skill. Lets say they will require players to have trained all basic and advanced learning skills. EX:

Elite skill named "Mind management:Memory" will require ALL basic learning skills (learning, empathy etc...) trained to lvl 5 as well as advanced skills (logic, eidetic memory, clarity...) to lvl 5. Then player will have to train advanced learning skill (named for ex. mind management) that would add +5% to attributes. When all this will be on lvl 5 (and mind management skill will have rank 8 - which will make it difficult to train) u will be able to train elite learning skills (their ranks will be like 12).

And again for maniacs that will spend months to train all of it to lvl 5 there will be elite learning skill named like "controlled mind growth" that will add 7% to attributes and will have rank 15. When trained to level 5 it will unlock super elite learning skills that will add +5 to attribute per level and will have rank 20.

This is for elite +25% and +10 for each attribute and +35% +25 per attribute for super advanced skills.
Some may consider it to be way to much but look at the requirements and ranks.

Others may think that new players will have advantage and will faster get to older players but a) training all advanced skills takes around 4 months of instant training - no one is doing that, b)these elite skills will be so expensive and hard to train that new players will be able only to dream about them.

Also it will add many other ways of creating your char - its like u want to spend months on elite trining skills so u can after that boost your skills much quicker or u will only learn advanced ones.

High ranks of those skills will balance the game well. The results of training of these skills will be seen after few years when player that was training elite skills will finally catch up the one who was not training them but training other normal skills.

I think its a good idea. Maby we can forget about super elite skills for a while but elite skills are NEEDED.

2)training queue:

it sometimes happens we forget about skill training completement, or we have to go accidentally somewhere for afew days, or are just to busy to think about game.

When u are finally home and u log in to the game what u see... that skill training has been finished 6 days ago!! 6 lost days!!

There is remedium: Skills for training queue. It can has a form of a list where u can copy untrained skills from your character screen (by dragging them). First skill in the list will be the one that is currently being trained. After its finishes it starts to train second in column.
U will be able to copy to the list not only skills that u can train but also skills that have pre-requisites untrained under one condition - those required skills are earlier in queue. Also u would be able to add how many levels to train (ex u train anchoring to lvl 3 but already have anchoring lvl4 in queue soe it will be the next to train... then u train another skil and again anchoring to lvl5 - all automatic since u put it into queue). And finally skillbooks - u will be able to add even skillbooks into queue. This will cause the skillbook to disappear until u will remove it back from the list.

This will be specially usefull if someone is going on vacations. He can put skills into training and forget no worrying that he will loose game time that can be spent on training.

Skill training queue list will also show a total time needed for training all the skills in list.

3) Also it would be nice if devs would release a nice program that will sit in tray and will notify how much time left for the skill training to be completed :) Radix

Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
Posted - 2005.12.08 23:52:00 - [7]
 

Currently advanced learning skills tip things a little bit towards newer players. Any "elite" learning skills requiring high levels of advanced learning will tip things a long way in favour of older players. This seems like a very silly move to me

CherniyVolk
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2005.12.09 02:40:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: CherniyVolk on 09/12/2005 02:41:20
Edited by: CherniyVolk on 09/12/2005 02:40:51
Maybe I just don't understand how time multipliers are computed...

But, I would like a "Learning" skill that would reduce the time multiplier. For each level, decrement the time multiplier by 1 unit, not going lower than 1 or 0.5.

CherniyVolk
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2005.12.09 02:54:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Deja Thoris
I hope not.

"Learning" for months so you can "learn" faster only makes sense to people who are complete nutjobs imo.Mad


I might agree...

Currently, the only conceptual way of training more skills than 1, is to train a "Learning" skill which would overall reduce the amount of time for it's relative attribute... or the "Learning"->"Learning" skill itself reducing training time all round.

The problem is... if you never intend to lvl up very high in one or two areas, like maybe "Social" or "Corporate Management"... then the speed gain for those areas are at total loss. There are so many skills and focuses for players to choose, that this "total" loss could be signficant in respect to the "Learning" tree and just crunch away at skills along the path of your goals.

It takes some time to lvl all your base Learning skills to 5... by that time, you could have gotten that Brutix weeks before... not only that, but also have a few skills in Mechanic up to par for increase HPs, and Gunnery skills up respectifully to add punch...

After people reach a considerable goal, some tend to relax a bit... during this relaxation period, when there's not much else to focus on in skill training and while you're enjoying the glories of your accomplishment; running about, pWning n00bs... Then, train the other Learning skills... which will open more doors for faster learning down the road when you get bored with your new toy.

It is hard to do this, realizing that "overall" the Learning skills decrease the amount of time it takes to learn a skill... but "overall" spreads very thinly considering all the skills one can learn in EVE.

I'm only focusing much on "Learning", becuase I plan to be playing for a long time and I know that the "Overall" increase will pay off sometime next year or so... (j/k)... but, it comes as a sacrifice... becuase I would like that T2 Assault Enyo as soon as possible, and "Learning" isn't going to give it too you "as soon as possible". "Learning" will make your Enyo formidable "as soon as possible" as other skills will be quicker to learn such as those required for an MWD, 20% damage bonus to Small Hybrid Turret Damage, Missles and all the other goodies that if the pilot has can greatly turn the tides in battle...

Deja Thoris
Invicta.
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2005.12.09 04:12:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: husk harn
Edited by: husk harn on 08/12/2005 22:36:16
deja noob
read something about the skilling time and why learning skills are usefull





I understand the maths, I'm not mentally challenged.

It takes +-3 years to payback training the current advanced skills to level 5,

Now add another tier of learning which will inevitably be ranked higher and we just have a moronic learning tree that stretches forever.

At the moment you can get away without the drag of training the advanced learning skills to level 5 (40 odd days that contribute jack **** quite frankly). Add another tier ontop of this and level V become a "must have" because you spend a long time training level 5 and get quick payback for the next 3/4 levels (i.e. learning level 13/14)



P.S. Post with your main, show some ballsWink

CherniyVolk
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2005.12.09 04:58:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: CherniyVolk on 09/12/2005 05:12:58
Originally by: Deja Thoris
Originally by: husk harn
Edited by: husk harn on 08/12/2005 22:36:16
deja noob
read something about the skilling time and why learning skills are usefull





I understand the maths, I'm not mentally challenged.

It takes +-3 years to payback training the current advanced skills to level 5,

Now add another tier of learning which will inevitably be ranked higher and we just have a moronic learning tree that stretches forever.

At the moment you can get away without the drag of training the advanced learning skills to level 5 (40 odd days that contribute jack **** quite frankly). Add another tier ontop of this and level V become a "must have" because you spend a long time training level 5 and get quick payback for the next 3/4 levels (i.e. learning level 13/14)



P.S. Post with your main, show some ballsWink


Are there that many people onboard for 3 years or more?

I read in another thread that it was optimal to get advanced learning skills to lvl 4 and forget lvl 5s until the day you're fully content and bored.

Currently, it takes me 5 days to lvl 5 my basic learning skills. I have 1 day left for "Learning" lvl 5, and that will decrease TT (Training Time) for my other 4; excluding Empathy. Since willpower and perception rely on memory and intelligence, my plan will be to lvl 5 intelligence and memory before Willpower and Perception... but, it will still take perhaps another month or so... and the eagerness to have advanced tier learning skills in progress will distract me from my plan as I run off and train a level or two of Edetic Memory or something...

But, the concern here is the length of time it takes to level up right? As for the request for more learning skills?

Each section has a most General skill accompanying it, usually required for any other skills within it's field. Industry, has Mining, Refinery... oh, and "Industry" as it's own skill too.

Perhaps, instead of adding a improbable and far reaching goals such as a T3 level learning... the base skill for each field itself also adds a speed bonus for learning the other skills within the field.

Afterall, in a sense, one skill does this.. "Learning"->"Learning" which decreases TT of all the other Learning skills.

Or, have Advanced Skill sets within each branch.

[Industry]
Industry
*Advanced Industry*
Mining
Refinary

Everything stays as it is. But, to start learning *Advanced Industry*, you need a lvl 5 in "Industry". *Advanced Industry* sole purpose is to make learning any other skill under "Industry" quicker. Maybe set the time multipliers really high for the advanced skills in each field. This might make it difficult for even old timers to gain a prospective 20% speed increase in learning in all the myriad fields (20% coming from 10% from Learning lvl 5, and each Advanced skill boosting learning speed in their respective field 2% per level just like Learning). How many fields are there? It takes 3 years to lvl 5 just four or so advanced learning skills... to lvl 5 FIFTEEN different fields, Science, Gunnery, et al... that's got to be rather improbable... can anyone be that devoted?

As a result, this will permit a n00b to "catch up" in a way to old-timers... Not all of EVE domination is in the hp damage of your weapons... a n00b can choose to fight politically, economically, industrially...

Would this not be reasonable?


Wayn Dotha
Posted - 2005.12.09 09:08:00 - [12]
 

Why do you need more adv learning skills:
1. Better Chance for Newbies. It is not that much, but when they are released, take alle minutes you played (take off a half year for training this) and multiply them with 6 (say we take the ones with +1) and you will get the Skillpoints you lose against them. Now multiply this number with 33 and you ought to get your own skillpoints (if you took adv learnings to 4). So you will lose about 15% (you remember the half year?) of your advantage in Skillpoints, IF they learn learnings from 0 to 14 all in a row. So sad.
And if they start after you finished 14 they even get less.
In this matter I think +2 for each skillpoint will be a little overpowered (they would get about one third...thats not that few)
2. Make learning 10 (adv learning 5) valuable. You will create another skill thats useless (learning 15), but that's not the point ;)
3. Make it easier to master Rank 10+ Skills

Radix Salvilines
legion industries ltd
AAA Citizens
Posted - 2005.12.09 10:04:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Radix Salvilines on 09/12/2005 10:13:50
Some ppls wants new learning skills some dont... there i think best solution would be releasing 5 elite skills and thats all for now.

And if anyone wants to train them - free will. If not - free will.

Take me as example - i almost trained all my learining skills up to lvl 5 - and im not training them instantly. Its like when i play or have a needed skill i train it then i switch back to learinigs. Its like the break in training.

And if someone shouts elite skills will be a plus to old players only or young players... look at present situation - look and dreadnoughts, titans and so - arent they an advantage for older players?

Every new thing brings in speculations and worries. But i really think additional elite training skills wont do mush difference - many wants them to be, others will get used t their presence - as it always is...

and what do u think about queues? in my earlier post

Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
Posted - 2005.12.09 10:42:00 - [14]
 

"Older players already have huge advantages so let's give them more! That'll really help our player uptake!"



...?

Ashraaf
Infinite Improbability Inc
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2005.12.09 11:23:00 - [15]
 

We got lot of learnings skills, and enough actually

Having Über Elite learnings, offer old player a reduction in time, but add to new player a batch of non usable skill

With kali we could buy and use booster that a better idea than add more skill

Discorporation
Amarr
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2005.12.09 11:37:00 - [16]
 

There are enough learning skills. For training higher rank skills, I suggest Attribute Boosters.

Sodhammer
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2005.12.09 19:31:00 - [17]
 

I would like to point out that there is a diminishing return for improving your attributes. Getting your basic learning skills to +5 on average cut your learning time by 40% (figure the average of attributes is around 8 with no bonuses, so basic learnings get you to 13+10% for learning). The advanced learning skills save you 25% of your learning time (now you are going from 14 to 19). A higher tier of learning skills (you would not take this to lvl 5), would gain you even less time savings.

What I would like to see is being able to train 2 skills at once. Maybe limit it based on attributes (If you are learning a skill that requires Perception and Willpower, only let you learn a second skill that does not take these attribs).

I just spent 35 days going from Minmatar BS lvl4 to lvl5. It would have been nice if I could have trained some other skills along the way to help round out my character.

Zemeckis R
Posted - 2005.12.09 22:55:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Sodhammer

What I would like to see is being able to train 2 skills at once. Maybe limit it based on attributes (If you are learning a skill that requires Perception and Willpower, only let you learn a second skill that does not take these attribs).



umm nice idea
maybe it could be a "total rank limit" too
for example:

let's say "total rank limit" is = 16

you can learn, for example, a rank 8 skill and a rank 4 skill, but not a rank 12 and a rank 8

...for example

Durethia
Blackwater USA Inc.
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2005.12.10 03:24:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Durethia on 10/12/2005 03:26:41
Originally by: Zemeckis R
Originally by: Sodhammer

What I would like to see is being able to train 2 skills at once. Maybe limit it based on attributes (If you are learning a skill that requires Perception and Willpower, only let you learn a second skill that does not take these attribs).



umm nice idea
maybe it could be a "total rank limit" too
for example:

let's say "total rank limit" is = 16

you can learn, for example, a rank 8 skill and a rank 4 skill, but not a rank 12 and a rank 8

...for example


Very nice. The only way to let noobs catch up, is to restrict in some way the elders... as no matter what you do (even with my proposition), elders are always able to stay ahead... unless restricted.

Total rank limit on multiple simulteanous learnings is a great way of restricting elders and letting the the noobs gain experience quicker. Still, as the noobs gain experience, they too will quickly hit the point where they are not able to train more than one skill at a time... and thus still be 1 year behind the 1 year their senior...

But...

Maybe it averages out in the end? People often create and cancel accounts, whether by choice or necessity. Some people forget to train a skill while being away for a long period of time. I think that by nature of outside circumstances, bordem, competition, financial insecurity, that there is somewhat a decent exchange of peoples in and out... don't know, perhaps CCP could give rotation figures, but perhaps not as that is a real life business stats that they might want to keep secret... is CCP publicly traded?

Now, here's my question. If I cancel my account, what happens to my SPs and in-game assets? Hopefully, there's a time limit, we always forget a payment or something, so, an account was cancelled or banned and has been dorment for a year... what happens?

I see people selling multi-million SP characters... is that people who are cancelling their accounts or people bored with their success with the desire to start from the bottom again, except with a lot of ISKS to play with?

The only real way for noobs to catch up, is if there is some way for old Skill Points to be irrelevant... In real life, this is taken care of by inevitable and irreversible death.

sonofollo
Caldari
Doomheim
Posted - 2005.12.10 11:43:00 - [20]
 

quick addition where do the new 4 hour time based boosters that offer a quick +6 through to +10 attribute boost come in to this ?

I think they will require biology or genetics 5 to use as well as cosmos and 0.0 acquired build items

fuze
Gallente
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2005.12.10 13:56:00 - [21]
 

You can make elite skills. But if you limited of one skill per char only you could have specialisation. Fighter,industrialist,R&D,miner. etc.
Or might be nice to link a learning skill to your race or sub-race.

Tbh I don't see the need of nubs having to catch up with vets. Pherhaps CCP should enable a legal way to let vets retire and make put those accounts up for sale. Eg. wait for half a year in order to enable the auctioning of the account.

Sonreir
Gallente
Paragon Fury
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2005.12.10 14:20:00 - [22]
 

I would like to see elite learning skills as well, but make them exclusive skills. You can't train it if you have any other of the elite skills. This way you can "fix" a character that started with poor stats. So if you train elite perception skills you cannot ever train any of the other elite learning skills. Opinions?

Sodhammer
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2005.12.10 19:54:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Sodhammer on 10/12/2005 19:58:34
If you specialize in any skill, after you play a year, you are on par with the beta players in that area. The smaller the ship, the quicker you are on par.

You will never be able to 'catch up' in skill points. A 35 million skill point character is uber in 10 ship types, but since he can only fly one at a time, he is equal to a 10 million sp character in that ship.

The reason that uber pilot is killing those newer players with ease is not so much skills, as knowing how to fit the ship and fight it.

Finally, this is a multiplayer game. It is designed for you to do stuff with team work. There are single player features, after all, you wont always have friends online, but everything is designed to make you use a team (gang skills, support mods). So even the week old player flying a t1 frigate is useful, after all, he may be the one orbiting that fully tech 2 fleet Tempest holding 3 points of scramble on it, while his 6 month old buddy is flying the blackbird preventing it from getting target lock on anything. So much for that uber player in his billion isk ship unless he has friends nearby.

Elfaen Ethenwe
Infusion.
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2005.12.11 02:18:00 - [24]
 

correct sodhammer

the trick is to specialise and have friends

dont try to be uber in everything cus you wont do it.


Donna Darko
Posted - 2005.12.12 20:27:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Donna Darko on 12/12/2005 20:27:46
Originally by: husk harn
Edited by: husk harn on 08/12/2005 22:36:16
deja noob
read something about the skilling time and why learning skills are usefull


I think she meant that there is no logical explanation that a game requires you to learn learning skills for the first 2+ months of your life, in order to be able to learn faster later.

If anything, I'd like to see the current learning skills' rewards boosted... Say, first tier learning skills give +1 to attributes (as they do now), Learning gives an additional overall bonus +1 to ALL attributes, advanced attributes give +2 bonus. *

But no more learning skills, please!

* per level


 

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