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blankseplocked Pirateing?....or just greifing..
 
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Gonada
The Scope
Posted - 2003.08.12 06:01:00 - [31]
 



learn to use the map, if you see pod/ship kills avoid the system, tell me how hard is that?


Presidio
Minmatar
Phantom Squad
Posted - 2003.08.12 06:06:00 - [32]
 

You can eighter be a pirate or a bounty hunter. I chose the more chalanging one, the bounty hunter, so I don't have to listen to civilians cry.

So what's the big deal, you don't like the pirates, do something about it, just please stop whining.

Kimi
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2003.08.12 07:39:00 - [33]
 

I have never figured out why this happens, but in almost every game (5) I have played that had pvp, it seems like the "bad" guys always start out way to strong.
So, they soon get tired of just "winning" and very soon turn to "griefing" (often with exploits). This, to them, is great fun. They loudly protest that they are following (mostly) the rules of the game.

The problem is, they have no common sense - very soon, they take griefing to new heights. this of course, upsets a lot of more or less peaceful folk - but the pirates/griefers are too stupid to realize that they are creating a severe backlash. A backlash in the sense that people actually start QUITTING the game because they are sick and tired of their newbey characters being slaughtered by someone 100 times as strong (gee, I wonder why).

The next step is, the devs and other game folks notice that the boards are filled with hate messages about griefers and exploiters, and that people are cancelling. This rings a bell and turns on a light.
The next step (ALWAYS - in every game I have played) is that the pirates/griefers/pk's whatever are severely nerfed. As in stomped on really hard. This scenario happens time after time, yet when the next game comes along - they will do exactly the same thing.

Griefers are just basically not real bright, I guess.

Athule Snanm
Amarr
Rien Ici
Posted - 2003.08.12 11:20:00 - [34]
 

Attacking people at gates isn't in itself an exploit or grief play. Deliberating singling ou 1.0 systems and camping there using the knowledge that you will never be attacked by the police is IMO. Someone said only idiots get killed, well what about brand new players - who funnily enough are mostly found in 1.0 systems?

A bug exists and until it is fixed CCP should send warnings to pirate players that hang out exclusively in 1.0 to stop or face suspension/banning. It's unfair to do so until a warning has been issued, but once one has it's clear that a bug is being used for advantage in a place where damage is done to the player base - ie grief/exploit play.

azrael211
Caldari
Interstellar eXodus
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2003.08.12 12:11:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: azrael211 on 12/08/2003 12:13:25
Edited by: azrael211 on 12/08/2003 12:12:42
Hmm, the way i see it is I got my ship wasted by lord zap after 2 weeks of playing in a high sector. I was really ****ed off tbh, then eve implemented the sentry guns which are good, I dont know how much damge they would do to a BS though, also i can't see how m00 and the other pirate corps are getting near 1.0 secotrs with all the cops around unless there shooting there way through but then more police are supposed to come and special forces etc.

Anyway off the point, I got wastred and was ****ed off I have lost ships to CTD's and also to NPC pirates but I also have podded a pirate, its all part of the game if I loss my ship i still have a hauler in empire space and also enough isk in the bank for a new ship. Its part of the games. I think that some of the bigger corps have taken some action againt the pirates I am ware that BSC ran in to mOO both sides lost a few ships etc. Dont go any play in 0.0 secotrs unless u have the fire power or buddies for it and the pirates should stay way from empire space to give the newbies a chance to get to know the game and love it and understand the rules on where and where not to go, before getting podded.

Garaleth Zelph
Gallente
Doomheim
Posted - 2003.08.12 12:22:00 - [36]
 

Quote:

What tech enables you to resist/avoid 20 BS's before you have come out of warp? I thought so.



Maybe not resisting...not with a single ship... but avoiding can be done Wink

SuicideFred
Posted - 2003.08.12 13:05:00 - [37]
 

Quote:
I have never figured out why this happens, but in almost every game (5) I have played that had pvp, it seems like the "bad" guys always start out way to strong.
So, they soon get tired of just "winning" and very soon turn to "griefing" (often with exploits). This, to them, is great fun. They loudly protest that they are following (mostly) the rules of the game.

The problem is, they have no common sense - very soon, they take griefing to new heights. this of course, upsets a lot of more or less peaceful folk - but the pirates/griefers are too stupid to realize that they are creating a severe backlash. A backlash in the sense that people actually start QUITTING the game because they are sick and tired of their newbey characters being slaughtered by someone 100 times as strong (gee, I wonder why).

The next step is, the devs and other game folks notice that the boards are filled with hate messages about griefers and exploiters, and that people are cancelling. This rings a bell and turns on a light.
The next step (ALWAYS - in every game I have played) is that the pirates/griefers/pk's whatever are severely nerfed. As in stomped on really hard. This scenario happens time after time, yet when the next game comes along - they will do exactly the same thing.

Griefers are just basically not real bright, I guess.


Wow.

Dead on the money.



Garaleth Zelph
Gallente
Doomheim
Posted - 2003.08.12 13:13:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Garaleth Zelph on 12/08/2003 13:18:08
To extend my prior post, I want to add the following. EVE is designed as an game with PvP implemented in it. That's ok. In this way it gives every player something he wants. Some want the action and PvP elements - so they can fight each other in low security systems to their hearts content and everyone venturing in those systems, 0.4 and lower sec. rating, faces the risk of getting involved in PvP activity (if it is his intention or not). Those players that are more the builder type and want to build up their corp, conduct their trade or simply get to know the game in the first instance are advised by CCP to stick to the high security systems (especially naming 1.0 sec systems here). Those players are guaranteed no offensive action in 1.0 systems... heck there isn't even a single Guristas Invader or one of those other Mosquitos ;-).
And here comes exactly the point. New players... the ones that just got their Ibis the other day and finished the tutorial missions are really not a match for the pirates who choose to attack them. With the right ship loadout you can take out an Ibis with one single shot of your auxiliary weapons *small nod to battleships*. In my opinion not quite the challenge for an experienced player, pirate or not. So I frankly don't see the point in pirating 1.0 systems - which by declaration of CCP shouldn't be possible without harsh retribution in the first place *asking glance in the direction of CONCORD* - since the loot gathered from a destroyed Ibis wouldn't cover the cost of a single round of BS ammo.
I know that there are also - besides the noob Ibis ships - quite some tasty Bestowers and other Indys hanging out in 1.0 systems with that oohh so valuable Scordite and Pyroxeres filling up their big bellies. And I sure can figure that they are easy pickings. But they will stay easy pickings even outside 1.0 sectors.
So a small hint for the bored pirates trying to get a laugh at popping noob ships and other unaware pilots in 1.0 systems - as long as it is possible. Don't ruin your own base of new potential victims in 0.4 and lower sec sectors by scaring of the noobs. I could imagine that is quite anoying to get podded in an Ibis the 5th time in a row and have to start mining for the next higher ship (...ooohhh my dream.. an Imicus) all over again. I would figure that this could entice quite some new players to leave because they don't see a chance of getting their feet on the ground. Wait until later, when they got better ships... PvP will be more fun for you then... and the loot they carry is even better too. So it makes sitting out on a gate and wait for them worthwhile :-).
PLUS you can then say that they have to blame themselfes for loosing their ship because they didn't take any precautions (like escorts, looking at the map etc.... you all know the drill).
But with camping gates in 1.0 systems and shooting down and podding new players (those noobs are sooo very dangerous ... one even scratched the new paint on my BS with his mining laser ;-) ), you not only spoil the game for them but (viewed in a bit larger timeframe) for you too. There is nothing to feel 'allmighty' about killing a ship that hasn't even the slightest chance to even light your cigarette with it's weaponry.

Just my thought on that matter.

Garreck
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2003.08.12 14:04:00 - [39]
 

Unbelievable. All I ever read anymore are posts whining about "griefer" pirates. Pirates add intrigue to Eve. Pirates add risk, and they add an unpredictable element to the usual mining/trading routine. I don't read about too much PvP combat on these boards, other than combat involving pirates...so where would the PvP element be without pirates?

If you're afk and you get zapped, accept that what you did was dumb, and move on from there. If you get blasted by "campers," well, stuff happens. Hopefully you were smart enough to upgrade your clone and insure your ship. Sifting through all of these complaints to find meaningful info on these boards is getting quite tedious.

Pirates, keep it up. I hope you're enjoying the game as much as many of us are. From a roleplaying perspective, you'll be my enemy, but I like what you do for the world of Eve.


Ywev
Minmatar
Posted - 2003.08.12 14:06:00 - [40]
 

so, what m0o and other pirate corps do is griefing, but your friendly jove going around pod'ing people is not griefing?

I am lost.


Athule Snanm
Amarr
Rien Ici
Posted - 2003.08.12 15:14:00 - [41]
 

There's a world of difference between general campage (including the occasional hit and run into and out of 1.0) and someone deliberating going to 1.0 with a -10 rating knowing that they won't be ever be touched by the police and that there will be plenty of inexperienced players to strike out at.

BTW, maybe all M0o members should start carrying Tech II BPs around with them and let everyone know. Then the Jove comparison would be fair... :-)

Dyvim Slorm
Robonia
Posted - 2003.08.12 15:15:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Dyvim Slorm on 12/08/2003 15:15:41
I agree totally Garreck, it is the pirates that give the game its spice. I doubt very much if I'd be playing if they weren't there.

The problem is really with the noobs, they have little or no experience and will give up playing Eve if they're getting podded on their first day.

Finderne
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2003.08.12 16:14:00 - [43]
 

I agree almost completely with Athule's posts. My only qualm is that for most of the -10 sec griefers, they no longer warrant any warnings from CCP. The first few pirates who stumbled on this bug deserved that, provided they reported it and stopped doing it. But we have ppl now who've spent several days straight doing this. They know it's a bug that prevents any Concord response. They're using the bug to grief and make some loot.

Ppl who explointed bugs like the insurance and manufacturing efficiency bugs didn't directly harm other players, so that's one reason why CCP can be excused for not cracking down. Besides the practical reason that it was tough for devs to track the ISK. But this is a glaring example of an easily verified exploit that has a big negative impact on other players. The reasons I think why some ppl are continously exploiting it in the face of such obvious facts is:
A) they're tired of Eve and want to go out in flames
B) stupidity
C) they think CCP will never ban anyone for anything
D) all of the above


SuicideFred
Posted - 2003.08.12 16:44:00 - [44]
 

Quote:
You know, i somehow doubt that the "griefers" are causing CCP to lose more subscribers than CCP itself does.


Maybe not, but you're sure adding to the problem.

The Reverend
Minmatar
Finite Horizon
Synchr0nicity
Posted - 2003.08.12 16:47:00 - [45]
 

Its been said before, it will be said again, and again, and again, and again.

If someones not enjoying the game, then there are 3 suspects that they blame.

1. The pirates (m0o being a popular choise)
2. The GM's (being my popular choise)
3. The Dev's.

If you enjoy the game, you learn to work round the problems in game and trust that the problems will eventually be sorted out. If you don't enjoy it you come on here and rant and rave.

Either deal with it, present a sound argument or go home and snivel to your mother.

Darth Maul
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2003.08.12 17:14:00 - [46]
 

While I agree that -9.9 sec rating people are exploiting a serious flaw in the rating system to gank people in 1.0 space with impunity.. I also agree that 0.0 should be a dangerous place where might makes right.

The way it SHOULD work is high sec empire space should be totally secure (you may get killed there, but 100% chance concord will gank your attacker) and even down to .1 should be relatively secure.. whereas you can get killed in .1 and your attackers have a decent chance to fight off the initial concord response and flee back to 0.0, but setting up a ganking operation won't be possible in a .1 due to concord's increasingly aggressive response.

However.... ALL high profit trade routes should be moved to 0.0 space, and anything better than jaspet should be only found in 0.0 as well. So.. for the low risk of operating in empire space, you get moderately low rewards - and for the high risk of operating in 0.0 you get high reward. Simple.

The peoblem lies in the fact that people are making HUGH profits in empire space with little to no risk.. and unless you need large quantities of mega theres absolutely no reason to go to 0.0 space - that's a flaw in the game design IMO.

Personally I never favor games thats total anarchy free for all PvP anywhere all the time - that's just too much of a hassle to be able to play the game for entertainment when I'm in the mood to just "chill". However games with no PvP whatsoever get really boring really fast since there's never the opportunity to match wits against another human instead of sub par game AI. Hence to me a game needs a balance.

Falwyn Everwyl
Posted - 2003.08.12 18:28:00 - [47]
 

Quote:
Its been said before, it will be said again, and again, and again, and again.

If someones not enjoying the game, then there are 3 suspects that they blame.

1. The pirates (m0o being a popular choise)
2. The GM's (being my popular choise)
3. The Dev's.

If you enjoy the game, you learn to work round the problems in game and trust that the problems will eventually be sorted out. If you don't enjoy it you come on here and rant and rave.

Either deal with it, present a sound argument or go home and snivel to your mother.


You like to blast people for complaining, so how about you offer some solutions? One valid argument I've seen has been -10 pirates camping 1.0 systems. Are you saying the victims need to work around someone else using an exploit? I don't believe that. I believe the solution to this problem lies solely in the hands of the devs, as players should not be expected to work around this problem. I think this is a valid reason to complain, as newbie players shouldn't have to deal with this.

There are some problems that can be worked around, and there are some that you shouldn't have to work around. The 'Carebears' are not cattle just waiting to be slaughtered by pirates, they are paying players who have a right to expect that their gaming experience will be a fun one.

Sajuuk Cor
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2003.08.12 21:58:00 - [48]
 

Rights!?
Re-read your EULA...it clearly states we have no rights.
As for working around exploits....you obviously have no choice BUT to do so...or you die.
The game is a flawed work in progress...either tough it out...or move on.
Instead of *****ing about pirates..how about giving some honest, well spoken suggestions to the development team?

The Wretch
Cyberdyne Systems
Posted - 2003.08.12 22:02:00 - [49]
 

For the love of god not another one of these pk'n gonna be the end of EvE threads.

Rolling Eyes


Lindor
Posted - 2003.08.12 22:21:00 - [50]
 

Erm.. I don't really get this 1.0 system bug. Let me put it into bullet points:

- Pirates prey on the innocent and wealthy
- Pirates will try and shoot and scam wherever possible.
- Pirates find 1.0 systems without sentry guns (the fault of the empires not providing protection at its gates).
- Pirates hunt there
- Pirates with -10 rating DO get hunted by Concord for just being there with a negative sec rating, so whats the problem?

In my opinion, just because CCP 'forgot' to put in sentry guns its now an exploit. It just frustrates me how you lot all f**king whine when a baddy gets into empire space. Big deal, its life, you can't expect the police to do everything for you. Now because you moan people are getting banned. Nice one. Your indy won't be shot down and you can continue mining. How would you like it if you found bistot or ark in a 0.9 system and then because its not right to have that ore there it becomes an exploit to mine it - and then ur banned.

I wish ppl would quit whining. If you did everyone would get along so much better, as would this game. Whine if its a bug - don't whine if you don't think its fair, cus life isn't fair.

Over and out.

Zell
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2003.08.12 22:38:00 - [51]
 



"griefing, is not pirateing, get it straight.."

Lindor
Posted - 2003.08.12 22:45:00 - [52]
 

I think your using that word as a safety blanket. Do you expect to be happy when killed. No-one does.

Athule Snanm
Amarr
Rien Ici
Posted - 2003.08.12 22:54:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: Athule Snanm on 12/08/2003 22:55:48
>>
- Pirates with -10 rating DO get hunted by Concord for just being there with a negative sec rating, so whats the problem?
>>

Ahem, are you absolutely positive this is indeed the case?

Just for the record, apart from the cargo can spam (which I never witnessed first hand and is now ancient history in any case) I do not have a problem with regular pirate behaviour, including the various infamous forms of m0o blockade and hit and run attacks on AFKers in 1,0. Deliberately exploiting a loophole in the game, after having being given an explicit warning not to, is asking for a suspension - and it seems that is what happened in the end too.

Gunn Diesel
MEDUSA TECHNOLOGY CORPORATION
Posted - 2003.08.13 05:59:00 - [54]
 

whine whine whine .... *squish squish...Sad

Jiere LaFortune
Gallente
Dark Star Industries
Sturmgrenadier Syndicate
Posted - 2003.08.13 11:42:00 - [55]
 

Quote:
Don't hate the player, hate the game.


Wiser words were never spoken.

Dyvim Slorm
Robonia
Posted - 2003.08.13 13:28:00 - [56]
 

Anyone that's played Eve for more than a few days knows the score - it's unsafe wherever you are. Don't like it, don't play.

The noobs are a different matter though, if someone gets PK'd a couple of times in their first 15 minutes they'll probably walk. This is a RL problem, no noobs = no new subs, and for the pirates no new canon fodder either.

So, a suggestion which may help:-

CCP set up a noob area (with say 6 systems) which is off the main map. This area is totally safe from PVP, has some basic ore to mine and some low level npc's for target practice, so noobs get a better feel for the game.

Once they feel ready (or after a timed period when they are forced) they leave the noob area. This trip is one way, they cannot return.

Just an idea, though I accept that it could be argued, making a safe area may make noobs feel too secure.


Intruders
Posted - 2003.08.13 14:21:00 - [57]
 

I find this -10.0 rating bug most anoying, and I fail to understand why it is not the top priority in CCP's fixing. Although I heard they banned a pirate because he was using it, they didnt seem to ban some other known female pirate who did this from time she loged untill time she left game each day and she even was braging on the forums about it. This pirate corp is tied with the larger corp. in game, I think they let her around just because of this.
If they dont like rumors circling around, they must not do such discriminations to players.

SuicideFred
Posted - 2003.08.13 17:00:00 - [58]
 


They need to punish pirate/griefers so they will not even THINK about going to 1.0 space.

Then newbies will be safe to give the game a try.


Fusco T
Posted - 2003.08.13 17:37:00 - [59]
 

It's a simple solution. Make the concord response work as it is intended to even with -10 sec rating. Add guns to the gates in 1.0 that don't have them. This would solve the situation right?

As for banning players who use the -10 no concord response bug, they should be given a warning and moved. Doing it again results in ban. Not the temp type either perma ban. Simply because they knowingly went against what was said to them.

Bugs happen and it IS up to the player base to recognize a possible exploit and either not do it, report it or at the very least listen to the GM when he says it is.

Some of you pro-griefers really amaze me at your lack of foresight. Per some of your logic if it is coded it is allowed. Ok with that idea then everytime there was a bug/exploit they would have to shut down the servers and fix the problem before putting it back up. I don't know about you but I would rather be able to play while they work on it and simply avoid the exploit.

People are different and have different ideas and expectations. Why not simply heed the same advice and either suggest a fix or deal with it?


Silver Striker
Posted - 2003.08.13 18:06:00 - [60]
 

CCP didn't plan for was a system of gameplay that matches players of equal skill and ability in some way.

The long time pirates who attack noob players in secure space should have no hope of escape when they do this. Currently as long as you don't dally you can escape quite easily into another system and do it again.

As your security rating drops more and more you should gradually be isolated out of areas of space. Once someone passes -5 sec status they should be locked up and destroyed should they venture into secure areas.

Most importantly security status should reflect your actions everywhere in space. Ppl are free to do whatever they like in 0.0 space and they never feel any negatives from this. I understand no police presence, but their actions should still count against them.

Players exercise very little control when there is no negative, and attacking ppl in 0.0 space has no repricusions.

Hopefully changes can be made so that new players are not completely at the mercy of veteran players.


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