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Rider Zane
Gallente
Riders of the North
Posted - 2005.11.26 15:46:00 - [241]
 

signed

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2005.11.26 15:48:00 - [242]
 

Originally by: Drilla
1 pr. creditcard, pr. month.

If you at any time break the rules the GTC's sold are cancelled.

So the buyers would have to be careful who they buy from and not just some auction guy but a friend they know.



Right. So if I currently bought ETC's for 2 friends, I'd have to tell one to feck off?

Try "you not allowed to advertise the sale of ETC's in any public channel, website or forum"

Arshes Nei
LifeLine Solutions
Posted - 2005.11.26 15:50:00 - [243]
 

Originally by: Kaeljen Dae
Edited by: Kaeljen Dae on 26/11/2005 15:29:54
For those that didn't get it: I'm trying to say that there most probably _will_ be some kind of inflation since most "players who can finally join the game because of ISK-payed-GTCs instead of real money" will _have_ to make 300m ISK somehow, and I have a feeling that a big amount of it will be made by agent missions/mining which "creates" ISK as it's not gained through trade with other players. On the other hand I'm a player who pays real money and for weeks I am nowhere near 50m ISK "coming out of the NPC part of the game", as I don't have to waste 300m. So, who is more prone to creating more "new" ISK? ISK-GTC-based player or suscription/paypal/whatever RL money player? Will they also destroy more ingame ISK? The rich guys who traded the GTC with them will(by blowing up ships where you lose more value than you get from insurance?), but they will already have accelerated the inflation process since their bids raised the puts but the destruction of the ship didn't lower it, therefore making more people jump on the bandwagon (also known as vicious circle) and trying to make more money for those expensive items.



Just for the record im also one of those that dont get it. Sure there will be more grinding which introduces more money into the game ... But there will be also:

a) more modules to spend isk on due to mission runners
b) more active people, so while the total money in the system increases, the money per person might not change as much

Actually adding people to a system without increasing money available should lead to a deflation, but but im not really into this kind of stuff so clarification would be welcome.

Btw what exactly is stopping ccp to make a few changes on how this grinding stuff pays out? Lots of stuff to do there.

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.11.26 15:53:00 - [244]
 

Originally by: Drilla
1 pr. creditcard, pr. month.

What about people who don't pay using creditcards?

And if you mean 1 per creditcard that is used to buy the GTC, and not per account creditcard, you know that you can get GTCs from plenty of other places right?

BloodSpoon
Amarr
Interstellar eXodus
R0ADKILL
Posted - 2005.11.26 15:54:00 - [245]
 

signed

Kaeljen Dae
Minmatar
Lunatic Asylum
Posted - 2005.11.26 15:55:00 - [246]
 

Ok, I'm cooling down now mates and will let the forum posting flow. I think I've stated my point and argued the most important points. It's time for me to sit back and wait for an official statement from CCP to see what's up. I hope u guys keep this forum the headlights of the General Discussions to point out that this is indeed an important issue that concerns most of us.

But in the meantime, in the secret bunker where the T2-magnates meet to pact their prices, I, Shikari and Chainy McSmoke have started the most evil of plans created in and around EVE.
Shikari will invest has begun investing our ISK-fortunes into several hundred characters bought on the forum which will then be transferred to trial accounts that I have created. These will be then used to sign a forum post.
In the meantime McSmoke arrives at the CCP-HQ-Heliport with a bag stuffed with money. Money to bribe Oveur. All covored up with a transaction of 1 000 000 GTCs. Our final goal: total CCP-domination to... revert the highway changes Cool

Kaeljen

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.11.26 15:59:00 - [247]
 

Originally by: Kaeljen Dae
Shikari will invest has begun investing our ISK-fortunes into several hundred characters bought on the forum which will then be transferred to trial accounts that I have created. These will be then used to sign a forum post.
In the meantime McSmoke arrives at the CCP-HQ-Heliport with a bag stuffed with money. Money to bribe Oveur. All covored up with a transaction of 1 000 000 GTCs. Our final goal: total CCP-domination to... revert the highway changes Cool


GAH YOU EXPOSED OUR EVIL PLAN!!!!

Don't you realize what you have done?!!!?! YOU'VE RUINED IT!!!

Arshes Nei
LifeLine Solutions
Posted - 2005.11.26 16:00:00 - [248]
 

Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Drilla
1 pr. creditcard, pr. month.

What about people who don't pay using creditcards?

And if you mean 1 per creditcard that is used to buy the GTC, and not per account creditcard, you know that you can get GTCs from plenty of other places right?


Just make two kinds of GTCs, one for stores and the other a virtual thing in your account data which can be transferred to other accounts(bye using player name).

Only virtual Gametimecards may be traded due to scam preventation - Would be the official news announcement.

You should be able to get these cards attached to your account using the same methods you normally extend your own gametime. Restriction would be you can only transfer this virtual account extension once a month.

That way its use would be restriced to small time trading, yet people would still be able to buy gametime for isk freely.

MachZERO
Minmatar
Spricer
Raiden.
Posted - 2005.11.26 16:06:00 - [249]
 

Quote:
I was delimiting the maximum (70k suscribers×300mil) and the minimum (no additional ISK 'created' for this GTC-ing). We are obviously somewhere in between. This is basic math. The question is where. Thanks for "contributing" by stating that we will never have to calculate with 70k estimated accounts, rather with 69994 (adding mine too) estimated accounts. This has really brought us nearer to the truth


Quote:
For those that didn't get it: I'm trying to say that there most probably _will_ be some kind of inflation since most "players who can finally join the game because of ISK-payed-GTCs instead of real money" will _have_ to make 300m ISK somehow, and I have a feeling that a big amount of it will be made by agent missions/mining which "creates" ISK as it's not gained through trade with other players. On the other hand I'm a player who pays real money and for weeks I am nowhere near 50m ISK "coming out of the NPC part of the game", as I don't have to waste 300m. So, who is more prone to creating more "new" ISK? ISK-GTC-based player or suscription/paypal/whatever RL money player? Will they also destroy more ingame ISK? The rich guys who traded the GTC with them will(by blowing up ships where you lose more value than you get from insurance?), but they will already have accelerated the inflation process since their bids raised the puts but the destruction of the ship didn't lower it, therefore making more people jump on the bandwagon (also known as vicious circle) and trying to make more money for those expensive items


Ahhh.. ok.. I see what you are getting at now. Just wasn't as clear in your first post.

And you are right. As we've seen something similar to this when EXODUS came out with the lvl 4 agents. More isk in eve meant insanely priced items. But that was also due to the crazy demand for ravens (to run those missions), T2 modules, faction gear (namely seige launchers), Implants and the introduction of many new toys. This also had a "spill-over" effect into everything else. And it wasn't until way after COLD WAR that we saw any real signs of stability.

So in the end you bring up an excellent point. It's a bit to the extreme in my opinion and I feel that Eve, being the size that it is and the general remoteness of the regions, will absorb any negative inflationary effects of GTC saleing.

(But before anyone points the smoking gun at EXODUS and says, "You wanna go back to that? That's exactly how it will be!", The EXODUS inflation was more complex than just more isk being dumped into the eve economy. The demand for battleships and modules skyrocketed due to the insane initial loss of ships to lvl 4 missions. Barges were new and no one could "ultra-mine" yet to keep up with the manufacturing demand. Manufacturers couldn't keep up with ship losses. It was a nasty repeating cycle for a while.)

VonKaplanek III
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.11.26 16:47:00 - [250]
 

signed...

Barbicane
TGUN Industries
Posted - 2005.11.26 17:02:00 - [251]
 

Originally by: Cute Babe
Edited by: Cute Babe on 26/11/2005 12:15:39
Originally by: Barbicane
Signed.

No one is against the buyers of GTCs, it's the sellers who gain an unfair advantage. I do have a solution for this:

Make it possible to buy GTCs for isk directly from CCP! Problem solved.



That is not a solution for so many reasons. How is ccp going to make any money if the person who first buys the card buys it with game money? The whole concept atm is when people buy game cards, they originally came from ccp for real money, and eventually get traded between players for isk, either way ccp gets the real money involved.

If ccp sell the cards directly to the player for isk, they get no real money, and cause major inflation by generating extra isk into the game.

Try getting a clue before posting next time.
Well, how about you try to come up with a better solution instead of flaming those who try to inject some new ideas into this debate?

And regarding inflation - you have it backwards. What was that you said about getting a clue again?

As for the idea itself, true, CCP would not make money from it in the short term. It would rather be a service to that part of the playerbase who don't have a credit card. CCP have already stated that the reason for allowing the sales in the first place was to help those players. Note that I didn't mention how much the GTCs should cost. I could very well envision an auction system where there is a fixed amount of GTCs available each month and they go to the highest bidders. Now, would that be a formidable isk sink or what?

Reiisha
Veto Corp
Posted - 2005.11.26 17:03:00 - [252]
 

signed.

Chade Malloy
Ardent Industrial
DEM0N HUNTERS
Posted - 2005.11.26 17:25:00 - [253]
 

signed.

Staranc
Caldari
Merc Tech Elite University
Posted - 2005.11.26 17:28:00 - [254]
 

What would be funny is if the topic starter got banned!! this would make CCP lose money.

I'd vote ban everyone that signs... i can't be arsed to read it all as its alot of nonsense so ill type nonsense.

Planateer
Madhatters Inc.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2005.11.26 17:35:00 - [255]
 

signed

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.11.26 17:36:00 - [256]
 

Originally by: Staranc
What would be funny is if the topic starter got banned!! this would make CCP lose money.

What would make CCP lose money is if the economy was ruined by blatant legal ISK selling, causing many people to quit. See Everquest 2 for a great example of this.

Posmart
Posted - 2005.11.26 18:25:00 - [257]
 

signed.

I don't know how anyone can defend getting ISK for real life money but think about this...


Before you do anything in this game, before you double-click the Eve icon and enter the game, before you even sit down at your computer, what do you do?

At some level, you think to yourself "Right, I think I'll play a game now".

That's right a GAME. Entertainment. Fun, satisfaction in achieving some goal you set yourself. Something you do because it is rewarding in itself, not because you get some material reward.

Things you do for material reward are called Work, a game should be the opposite of work. The more a game becomes like work, the less likely I or anyone is to follow up the thought "I think I'll play a game now" with the action of clicking that Eve icon.

If I'm playing Chess and I buy an extra Queen every time I feel like it and put it on the board, how many Chess players do you think would want to play against me?

Want another analogy? Me and my mates sometimes hire an all-weather pitch for a game of 5-a-side football. We pay the money we've earned in real life to a company who in return provide, literally, a "level playing field" for us.

Once we start the game, it doesn't matter who is the richest in real life, all that matters is skill and teamwork. Neither does the winning team get any real life reward, - they get the satisfaction, fun, entertainment etc of a game well-played.


So it goes far deeper than some stupid balancing act or EULA violation or any of that nonsense. If it's not a game, people won't play it, end of story.

Ban the macroers, ban the timecode sellers, ban anyone who buys or sells anything from the game on ebay or any other site. Make them prove they are innocent not the other way round.

If you don't, the consequences are obvious - there'll be no "game" left to play.



Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2005.11.26 19:06:00 - [258]
 

Edited by: Maya Rkell on 26/11/2005 19:08:14
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Staranc
What would be funny is if the topic starter got banned!! this would make CCP lose money.

What would make CCP lose money is if the economy was ruined by blatant legal ISK selling, causing many people to quit. See Everquest 2 for a great example of this.


Once more,

Take Ultima Online. It allows ebaying. The economy is fine.

Take Asherons Call. It dosn't allow ebaying. The economy is a bad joke, with the official currency being basically worthless.

Given how Eve's structure heavily mitigates against the usefulness of ebaying, I don't believe it would have a major effect.

PS, Posmart, take this argument: Why should the little kiddie who spends 30 hours a week playing have more fun in the game than the person who works, spends 5 hours a week ion the game and has a disposable income?

Surely a GAME should allow the working person to buy ISKies off the kiddie, giving the kiddie some income and letting the working person spend more time doing interesting things in Eve?

It can be argued many ways.

Thomdril Merrilin
Defile.
Posted - 2005.11.26 19:09:00 - [259]
 

/signed

Arshes Nei
LifeLine Solutions
Posted - 2005.11.26 19:09:00 - [260]
 

Originally by: Posmart
signed.

I don't know how anyone can defend getting ISK for real life money but think about this...


Before you do anything in this game, before you double-click the Eve icon and enter the game, before you even sit down at your computer, what do you do?

At some level, you think to yourself "Right, I think I'll play a game now".

That's right a GAME. Entertainment. Fun, satisfaction in achieving some goal you set yourself. Something you do because it is rewarding in itself, not because you get some material reward.

Things you do for material reward are called Work, a game should be the opposite of work. The more a game becomes like work, the less likely I or anyone is to follow up the thought "I think I'll play a game now" with the action of clicking that Eve icon.

If I'm playing Chess and I buy an extra Queen every time I feel like it and put it on the board, how many Chess players do you think would want to play against me?

Want another analogy? Me and my mates sometimes hire an all-weather pitch for a game of 5-a-side football. We pay the money we've earned in real life to a company who in return provide, literally, a "level playing field" for us.

Once we start the game, it doesn't matter who is the richest in real life, all that matters is skill and teamwork. Neither does the winning team get any real life reward, - they get the satisfaction, fun, entertainment etc of a game well-played.


So it goes far deeper than some stupid balancing act or EULA violation or any of that nonsense. If it's not a game, people won't play it, end of story.

Ban the macroers, ban the timecode sellers, ban anyone who buys or sells anything from the game on ebay or any other site. Make them prove they are innocent not the other way round.

If you don't, the consequences are obvious - there'll be no "game" left to play.





Thats actually a very good reason not to sell GTCs for isk. But unfortunatly its also a very good reason to buy GTCs with isk.

People always say rl wealth shouldnt affect things ingame, which is all fine, until you start thinking about people that quit eve cause they aint got the money to play it anymore. Thats a whole lot of affecting wealth does in that example.

But for some reason its wrong for rich people to get a little extra ingame cause of wealth, yet its perfectly fine for poor people to get kicked out of the game cause of wealth.

I guess thats the "well im not poor so thats not my problem" attitude.

Amerame
Kernel of War
Posted - 2005.11.26 19:10:00 - [261]
 

Edited by: Amerame on 26/11/2005 19:11:02
Originally by: Posmart


If I'm playing Chess and I buy an extra Queen every time I feel like it and put it on the board, how many Chess players do you think would want to play against me?




Why would anyone compare chess to a MMORPG ? In chess there is a beginning and an end. In chess you don't start a game with just a pawn and your opponnent with a full set because he is ranked higher than you, you don't let your opponent make 30 moves before you start playing.
Competition in MMORPG is NOT the same as in sport, board game, or e-sport. How can you tell who's winning ?
MMORPGs, persistant worlds, virtual worlds, are slightly more than "just a game".
Do you feel like you're "winning" when your wallet grow bigger ? Is a character never playing, with 200 billions isk the king of eve ?

That said, I don't especialy like people buying / selling virtual goods on a large scale in MMORPG it certainly feels odd, but I don't feel threatened by them like some people seem be. Especialy I don't think they'll take over the T2 bpo, because, well, it's people with T2 BPO that need ISK the less ... Nor do I think that the famous combat corporations fear that the ebayer teams will invade their territory.


Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.11.26 19:10:00 - [262]
 

Originally by: Arshes Nei

Thats actually a very good reason not to sell GTCs for isk. But unfortunatly its also a very good reason to buy GTCs with isk.

People always say rl wealth shouldnt affect things ingame, which is all fine, until you start thinking about people that quit eve cause they aint got the money to play it anymore. Thats a whole lot of affecting wealth does in that example.

But for some reason its wrong for rich people to get a little extra ingame cause of wealth, yet its perfectly fine for poor people to get kicked out of the game cause of wealth.

I guess thats the "well im not poor so thats not my problem" attitude.

Buying gametime cards isn't the problem, its that someone has to sell the cards in order for someone to buy them. And usually, its someone who bought 50 cards and is selling them to get billions upon billions of basically free ISK.

Samurai Pumpkin
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.11.26 19:15:00 - [263]
 

I seriously doubt that this will happen. For whatever reason half of the people on my teamspeak use game time cards. Reasons usually deal with family credit and a distrust of credit card information over the internet.

Nurse Wu
Gallente
Posted - 2005.11.26 19:18:00 - [264]
 

Signed

BurnHard
Posted - 2005.11.26 19:20:00 - [265]
 

Originally by: Derisor

Sony Online Entertainment once thought this. OOPS. They lost some 60% of their player base from EQ2. Log on today and you will see that the game is totally empty, not one server ever has more than minimal load. The fact is that this is nothing more than legitimizing eBaying of in-game goods and trying to take a piece of the action.



Please point us to the research that shows this was the reason 60% of the playerbase moved on. I can think of at least half a dozen other reasons that this happened. If you are going to infer cause, at least provide some evidence otherwise it's nothing but correlation, which as you might know, can be used to argue in any direction you want.

Arlech Mygou
Posted - 2005.11.26 19:33:00 - [266]
 

Signed.

Conwright
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2005.11.26 19:53:00 - [267]
 

signed

Arshes Nei
LifeLine Solutions
Posted - 2005.11.26 19:56:00 - [268]
 

Edited by: Arshes Nei on 26/11/2005 20:03:30
Originally by: Dark Shikari

Buying gametime cards isn't the problem, its that someone has to sell the cards in order for someone to buy them. And usually, its someone who bought 50 cards and is selling them to get billions upon billions of basically free ISK.


Well im against that bulk selling of dozens of GTCs, im just not against the casual GTC seller as i regard that as two very different scenarios. If we cant completly control this anyway why not allow the casual selling, which benifits the poor players just as much as the bulk selling, yet prohibit the bulk selling?

As to where to draw the line, i dont care, anything between 1-3 GTCs per three months would sound sensible(depending on how much GTCs are needed by market i guess). We can enforce that just as much as we can enforce a complete ban of GTC selling.

Edit: It would be most likely impossible to detect casual sellers anyway, as a 300mil transaction every few months just isnt enough evidience. And i still think ccp doesnt care much about these small time sellers anyway, whatever decision gets made regarding this in the future.

Posmart
Posted - 2005.11.26 20:33:00 - [269]
 

Originally by: Maya Rkell


PS, Posmart, take this argument: Why should the little kiddie who spends 30 hours a week playing have more fun in the game than the person who works, spends 5 hours a week ion the game and has a disposable income?

Surely a GAME should allow the working person to buy ISKies off the kiddie, giving the kiddie some income and letting the working person spend more time doing interesting things in Eve?

It can be argued many ways.


No it can't.

"Why should the kid get more fun for playing longer?" - Err, because he is playing 30 hours a week, not 5.

Consider the converse - should a game reward people less the longer they play it? Or even penalise them the longer they play? Strange game that would be.

The kid playing 30 hours gets 30 hours of reward in-game for the 30 hours effort he puts in. The working person plays 5 hours and gets 5 hours reward in-game for the 5 hours he plays. This is ...gasp!.. FAIR.

Then the 5 hour player uses his real money, which the kid hasn't got, to get 100s of hours of in-game reward - an in-game reward he has made no in-game effort for. And then you would say to this kid "Hey it's not fair, I have to go to work and can't play Eve as long as you can."

It's unfair that you and I are adults and have to go to work and kids don't, it's something I bemoan every day.

But that's life - Eve isn't, this is a game.

MysticNZ
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2005.11.26 20:40:00 - [270]
 

Time to buy me some time cards :)


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