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MachZERO
Minmatar
Spricer
Raiden.
Posted - 2005.11.26 14:40:00 - [211]
 

not the SoE example.. lol

EQ2 was and is at best a mediocre game that was thrown together to try and ride the EQ wave of sucess. It failed because it now has compitition where as before EQ had UO to compete with. It also was released to some very "blah" reviews from actual gamers on the net and word of mouth did alot to destroy that game. I'll agree that the selling of in game items for RL money was a contributor to this but it was by NO means the ONLY reason why that game ultimately failed when compared to EQ's sucess.

Where do you get the 300 mil X 70k subscribers from?? All 3 of my accounts are paid up in 6 month intervals via VISA so you can subtract me, my 3 accounts and the thousands of other users that prepay their accounts up to a year from those exagerated numbers.

This whole issue is about to get the nerf bat from hell...

Very Happy

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.11.26 14:41:00 - [212]
 

Originally by: Rod Blaine
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 26/11/2005 14:37:07
I'd like to convert this otherwise utterly useless and argument-poor thread to a real discussion by pointing you to my post here

Allowing regulated sales of gametime cards is actually arguably a good thing, depending on your priorities when it comes to choosig between two evils:

- influence of rl welath on igname wealth
- isk farmer activity within Eve.

I'd say teh altter is the most disturbing personally, the greater evil in this case. The former, regulated by the current allowing of sales of gtc's, actually has a possibly very negative influence on the latter.

So, very much NOT signed I'm afraid.

edit: btw, most people would not regard me as wealthy in real life, and I have not nor will use any rl cash to further my ingame wealth or power, period.

How about we attempt to solve both, rather than dodge the real issue?

Ban GTC sales, and use sting operations to take out the ISK sellers.

Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2005.11.26 14:42:00 - [213]
 

Edited by: Rod Blaine on 26/11/2005 14:47:32
Not realistic, as explained by CCP.

And anyway, the very least this does i buy CCP time.
Whomever said that the current system of regulated timecard sales is definitive ?

CCP might well work on a more difinitive solution to the issue of farming, this would buy them that time.

Now, I personally don't believe they are, but that doesn't mean they are not.

In the mean time, those macro miners are in for hard times as long as there are people buying timecards for isk without reselling them...

And, a small yet mentionable side effect of this change is that montoring who buys timecards via forums and ingame mails is a damn lot easier then monitoring ebay or IGE use is isn't it ? At least the former allows CCP to check (if they would want to assign the manhours to do it), who is in fact buying timecard in bulk yet does not use them ?

Imo, CCP should actually support this via a distinct webtool that registers who buys and who sells, so that checks can be made and players that buy gtc's can be mobilised to actually prevent the farmers from getting in on the whole thing.

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.11.26 14:43:00 - [214]
 

Edited by: Dark Shikari on 26/11/2005 14:43:10
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Not realistic, as explained by CCP.

I never saw this "explanation." I don't see why it isn't realistic. In a sting operation, you automatically get every single person who has ever transacted with the character.

If not a sting operation, just search for large numbers of round-sized donations.

Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2005.11.26 14:50:00 - [215]
 

Edited by: Rod Blaine on 26/11/2005 14:52:32
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 26/11/2005 14:43:10
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Not realistic, as explained by CCP.

I never saw this "explanation." I don't see why it isn't realistic. In a sting operation, you automatically get every single person who has ever transacted with the character.

If not a sting operation, just search for large numbers of round-sized donations.


If I'd sell isk on ebay, or gametimes codes. I'd sinmple get a enw trial account every day to do my trades.

How many does CCP trace again by a single sting (that costs them rl cash as well...) ?

IN the mean time, their recent chang eof course does a LOT mroe to keep cash in their pockets instead of those of the farming mafia, wihtout it needed any cash investments and without more then a very small bit of work by some GM's..

Surely, it's a masterstroke against farming, when judged by result v effort efficiency ?


btw, I make large numbers of round sized donations every week from my mains to my alts and corp mates and their alts on different accounts... without anything untoward being involved.

Think again on how much effort would go into checking isk movements within this game without these investigations being directed by specific other information..

Amerame
Kernel of War
Posted - 2005.11.26 14:50:00 - [216]
 

Originally by: Dark Shikari

How about we attempt to solve both, rather than dodge the real issue?

Ban GTC sales, and use sting operations to take out the ISK sellers.

How about every single mmorpg tried and failed so far ? saying ebay is bad won't make it disapear. Even if you put a GM behind every single player in the game it would still be possible to buy isk, thus some people would do it.
I agree with Rod Blaine, at least GTC is hurting macrominers / farmers, and those are annoying me more than the handfull of people around buying ISK en masse.


Kaeljen Dae
Minmatar
Lunatic Asylum
Posted - 2005.11.26 14:55:00 - [217]
 

Edited by: Kaeljen Dae on 26/11/2005 15:01:25
Originally by: Azeroth Uluntil
Might as well start a thread against the Russians selling isk for money. It's a frigin industry ffs.
<- Kinda sarcastic.
That's currently against the EULA, problem is that this GTC-greyzone isn't agains the EULA. We want to fight it, not really snip our fingers and have it disappear.

Originally by: KHEN
The economy is already disrupted by the holders of some monopolies and rights : T2 BPO holders, CEOs of the largest alliances. It has been like this since I started and it never disrupted me to make my bucks and to enjoy EVE.


The slight difference being that people have used game-dynamics to achieve this (I hope... could be e-bayed though). If you think that the T2-BPO-monopoly is crap (which I also think) then complain about that in another post. It's not "the game is broken anyway, it couldn't get worse anyway".

[Quote=KHEN]I think that the guy buying isks to corner EVE's economy is a fictive case (scarecrow) or it will so rarely occur. Most of the buyers will be n00bs bored by hours of mining.

That's quite sarcastic considering you traded 4,5billion ISK for GTCs. Or was that to 45 noobs that were trying to get into their first Tier 1 BS? To how many people did you sell it? 1bio ISK in one hand can change much (for example Buying 250 000 000 units of Tritanium for 4 isk in the citadel).

Originally by: KHEN
And even somebody wants to buy enough isks to purchase a T2 BPO from an HAC or most wanted mods, his impact will not be bigger to the economy than a winner of the T2 BPO lottery : remember that the lottery is still running, and that new huge T2 BPO will be seeded !


CCP has stated that they are not satisfied with this and that they are trying to change it. We are trying to achieve the same from CCP: an _official_ statement saying that things aren't the way they should be, that they'd like to change it and that it's been looked at/worked on already. not having you hanged because you traded ISK for GTC

Originally by: MachZERO
And this is where supply and demand will kick in. When alot of people start selling the cards they will eventually dry up the demand for such cards. Which means fewer people will be buying time cards with isk because they now have a years worth of time cards. And now that fewer people are buying and more people are selling the price in isk for these cards will plummet. Why? It's simple. No one is buying and everyone is selling. Eventually the two will level out just like prices for products in real life. This is simple economics. Supply.. and Demand...


and THEN rumours come up that you can buy 3 months of EVE at 20$ on e-bay, and the demand is back on again.

Originally by: MachZero
As for the guy that made 4 billion isk in a single day selling these cards (if he actually exists), hell, I aplaude you for using your brain and finding an easier way to becoming a multi-billionaire in eve. You my friend are a true capitalist and will fit nicely into Eve's cut-throat economy and culture.


From what I've heard you could join SoE and never stop clapping Laughing

Originally by: Amerame
Do you think that people who are abusing this system would not get ISK through ebay ? Ebayers existed long before eve existed, there is pretty much no way to stop it.


The problem is that GTCs can add to e-baying: Since they equal ingame ISK, and are hard to track (there's absolutely no link between the account of a potential sellerand the GTC), people that want to get RL money for ingame efforts can:
1) Make money on Tranquility through whatever legal (or illegal like macroing) measures on Tranquility.
2) buy a GTC for ISK.
3) Resell the GTC under the EVE-store-price (this is logic because a player could get scammed here and you have to weigh up for the risk) making money. With CCP having absolutely no measures to fight it (if you think they can, tell me how)

-> The GTC buyer will then most probably use it for his account to keep running.

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.11.26 14:55:00 - [218]
 

Edited by: Dark Shikari on 26/11/2005 14:55:55
Originally by: Amerame
Originally by: Dark Shikari

How about we attempt to solve both, rather than dodge the real issue?

Ban GTC sales, and use sting operations to take out the ISK sellers.

How about every single mmorpg tried and failed so far ? saying ebay is bad won't make it disapear. Even if you put a GM behind every single player in the game it would still be possible to buy isk, thus some people would do it.
I agree with Rod Blaine, at least GTC is hurting macrominers / farmers, and those are annoying me more than the handfull of people around buying ISK en masse.


The ends never not justify the means.

Guska Luivat
Posted - 2005.11.26 14:56:00 - [219]
 

Signed.

No need to repeat what other said.

Elendar
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2005.11.26 14:59:00 - [220]
 

Signed, no different from ebaying (except ccp making money from this)

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2005.11.26 15:00:00 - [221]
 

Originally by: Derisor
Sony Online Entertainment once thought this. OOPS. They lost some 60% of their player base from EQ2. Log on today and you will see that the game is totally empty, not one server ever has more than minimal load. The fact is that this is nothing more than legitimizing eBaying of in-game goods and trying to take a piece of the action.


Where did you get your figures? Links plz. According to www.mmogchart.com, which has allways been accurate for SoE games, they lost about 20% of their playerbase, and this was at a time more related to a massive "balance" patch.


Originally by: Derisor
MMOGs have always fought the eBaying of in game items and we were comfortable with that. However, recently at least one game has jumped into the eBay bandwagon and has gotten crushed in the process. I was leader of a large and famous guild in EQ2 until station exchange. After which the guild lost some 80% of its members to simply quitting the game.


Ultima Online
Second Life

There are more of course. But the statement that "MMOGs have always fought the eBaying of in game items" is completely and utterly untrue. Just because YOU attracted people who disliked the policy does not mean that it was a reprisentive sample.

Originally by: Derisor
I would bet that if SOE could wind back the hands of the clock they would slap the guy that came up with the SOE Exchange idea; possibly using a sharp object. And not even SOE was dumb enough to change a live server to do this sort of thing; regardless many of the people left on principal.


On the contrary, it's been VERY profitable for them. You really need to read the report on it.

There are arguments against ebaying, but NOT the ones you are using.

Galk
Gallente
Autumn Tactics
All the things she said
Posted - 2005.11.26 15:01:00 - [222]
 

Ofcourse im sure the members of bob would not take advantage of this to gain many more accounts to shove characters into 'other' corps as spies.

Just pointing out another negative effect of the ease of gaining extra accounts, and why i don't support this whole notion, it has so many ill effects.

KHEN
New Horizons
Posted - 2005.11.26 15:02:00 - [223]
 

I've never considered playing EVE was a work or harassing, just FUN. I was lucky enough to get some isks from my activities in game. So please stop speaking of 'hard work in game', this is only a game, life is hard, not games. And if it is so hard, so competitive, if it stress you so much you should really consider about leaving the game.

Even if I'd get ruined in EVE, I would play aswell, I do not take my fun from what I have but from what I've learned and from the projects I have which are not all isks-dependant. Competition is not my obsession, I play for myself not against the others. You can be in an ultra competitive economy and bother about your own business.


Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.11.26 15:02:00 - [224]
 

Originally by: Galk
Ofcourse im sure the members of bob would not take advantage of this to gain many more accounts to shove characters into 'other' corps as spies.

Don't turn this into another BoB conspiracy thread, please. We don't need any more bull**** accusations.

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2005.11.26 15:03:00 - [225]
 

Originally by: Dark Shikari
Ban GTC sales, and use sting operations to take out the ISK sellers.


Legal. Issues. Ahoy!

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.11.26 15:03:00 - [226]
 

Originally by: KHEN
I've never considered playing EVE was a work or harassing, just FUN. I was lucky enough to get some isks from my activities in game. So please stop speaking of 'hard work in game', this is only a game, life is hard, not games. And if it is so hard, so competitive, if it stress you so much you should really consider about leaving the game.

Even if I'd get ruined in EVE, I would play aswell, I do not take my fun from what I have but from what I've learned and from the projects I have which are not all isks-dependant. Competition is not my obsession, I play for myself not against the others. You can be in an ultra competitive economy and bother about your own business.


Just because you don't play for the competition doesn't mean everyone else doesn't. For those who do, people cheating like this ruins the game.

If you were playing Counterstrike, and a guy had an aimbot and always killed everyone before they could even see them, would you simply say "oh well it doesn't matter I'm not competing with him"?

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.11.26 15:04:00 - [227]
 

Edited by: Dark Shikari on 26/11/2005 15:04:16
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Ban GTC sales, and use sting operations to take out the ISK sellers.


Legal. Issues. Ahoy!

How so?

There is no legal issue there at all.

Do you quite seriously think that the warning at the bottom of the seller's description saying that anyone affiiliated with CCP cannot bid on the auction has any legal basis?

MachZERO
Minmatar
Spricer
Raiden.
Posted - 2005.11.26 15:04:00 - [228]
 

Originally by: Dark Shikari
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 26/11/2005 14:43:10
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Not realistic, as explained by CCP.

I never saw this "explanation." I don't see why it isn't realistic. In a sting operation, you automatically get every single person who has ever transacted with the character.

If not a sting operation, just search for large numbers of round-sized donations.


You gonna divvy up the thousands of dollars to pull this "easy" sting operation off?

I'm sure CCP could use the extra cash.

And what do you do when that module you got off escrow can be traced back to an e-bayer? What then? Or the BS you purchased was built by someone that happened to e-bay 30k megacyte cause he has no access to 0.0 to mine it himself?

Then these rules would also aply to you. But then I'm guessing that none of this should apply to you. Right?

Only those evil doing time card sellers.

You really don't need an explanation when it is truly common sense. Time cards make more money for CCP than those of us that prepay for 6 months to a year using our VISA's or the PayByCash option. We get huge discounts for paying up 6 months instead of paying monthly. Where do you think that diference is made up? Time Cards and monthly payments.

Search for round sized donations.. LOL My old corp would be screwed then. We always got round sized donations for our half of freighter builds in the range of 1 to 2 billion isk. And I'm sure many others would be screwed as well. Everyone starts sending 101 million isk. Then what? We start searching for all transactions over 100 million? People send it in multiple 90 million isk lots. As you can see this will never end.

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.11.26 15:08:00 - [229]
 

Originally by: MachZERO
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 26/11/2005 14:43:10
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Not realistic, as explained by CCP.

I never saw this "explanation." I don't see why it isn't realistic. In a sting operation, you automatically get every single person who has ever transacted with the character.

If not a sting operation, just search for large numbers of round-sized donations.


You gonna divvy up the thousands of dollars to pull this "easy" sting operation off?


It only costs 10 bucks for 50 million ISK on eBay.

Quote:

And what do you do when that module you got off escrow can be traced back to an e-bayer? What then? Or the BS you purchased was built by someone that happened to e-bay 30k megacyte cause he has no access to 0.0 to mine it himself?

Then these rules would also aply to you. But then I'm guessing that none of this should apply to you. Right?

Only those evil doing time card sellers.

You really don't need an explanation when it is truly common sense. Time cards make more money for CCP than those of us that prepay for 6 months to a year using our VISA's or the PayByCash option. We get huge discounts for paying up 6 months instead of paying monthly. Where do you think that diference is made up? Time Cards and monthly payments.

Search for round sized donations.. LOL My old corp would be screwed then. We always got round sized donations for our half of freighter builds in the range of 1 to 2 billion isk. And I'm sure many others would be screwed as well. Everyone starts sending 101 million isk. Then what? We start searching for all transactions over 100 million? People send it in multiple 90 million isk lots. As you can see this will never end.

With the kind of large businesses farmers run, its impossible to use roundabout techniques such as module escrows.

Round sized donations to many different people would still not be a sure-fire hit, but would come up with possible candidates.

Femaref
Armageddon Day
WE FORM VOLTRON
Posted - 2005.11.26 15:13:00 - [230]
 

signed

Achnoid
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2005.11.26 15:16:00 - [231]
 

signed. wish i had more accounts so i can sign it more times

Arshes Nei
LifeLine Solutions
Posted - 2005.11.26 15:19:00 - [232]
 

Originally by: ChainyMcSmoke

I was blessed by coming from a very well to do family in RL and have a very good job so it wont effect me. I could by a few trillion isk worth of these things whenever. The real question is should I?



No you cant get a few trillion isk doing this, as you just assume there is a market for over 10k GTCs at 300mil isk. Going by responses on the sell threads in forum we are not even close to 1k. Now we might have a market of 10k if you sell them for 30mil isk instead and have some real good advertisement, unfortunatly you would need 100k GTCs to get your trillions.

I wonder what ccp would say if you ordered 100k GTCs from them ... Thats after all well over 4 mil $$, but ccp will gladly deliver im sure ... So now you have your trillions? Not really, still have to find buyers, but i guess since your coming from a very well doing family you could use a chinese sweat shop to process the selling of your 100k GTCs Rolling Eyes

So lets say at the end of the week everything is sold, so what are you going to do now? Obviously trying to make more, so you buy all big mineral stacks on market intending to resell them at higher price(dreads are peanuts for you now), now a gm comes along sees you doing this and thinks: This dude is disrupting the game economy on purpose. You get banned.

At the end of the week:

ccp: +4 mil $$
10k of players: +50 $$ safed over the next 3 months
you: banned account cause a gm felt like it. your money is now locked and taken out of the game

Lesson? Dont take rl values to a game where you can get the ban anytime. Ccp has very strict house rules, just like a bar owner can decline to sell you a beer cause he doesnt like you, ccp can decline to discountinue their buisness with you if they feel your disrupting their game.

People really underestimate what trading huge quantities will do to GTC buisness, the market is very similar to HACs. Even if you own 10k deimos that doesnt mean you get 10k * 150mil, well maybe over a few years but certainly not fast. Besides even if you are a trillionaire, what can you do? You certainly are not allowed to ruin the game, and i doubt it would get you more friends than enemies. For example i know that the richest person in eve has around 50-100bil i guess ... do i care how he got the money? No. Does it affect me somehow? No. For me its not a difference wether someone has 50bil or 500bil, and if the total amount doesnt affect me why would the way he acquired it?

Another example: Someone buys all tech 2 bpos to completly control the market(thats quite a feat no matter the money you have). Everything tech 2 costs now 10 times as much, people are oc complaining on forum. Ccp makes a big tech 2 lottery give away, and doubles the amount of tech 2 bpos cause they are bored of the moaning in forums ... So who do you think can go on longer? The guy buying bpos or ccp adding new ones?

A single person or a group of persons cannot destroy eve. Ccp simple wont allow it, if someone misuses the system to gain a advantage ccp will just change the rules of the system and all the effort of the cheater is wasted.

Just have a little bit of faith in ccp, they are not the drunkards that make up the management of SOE ... Actually some of them are drunkards if you go by the fan fest... but still they know what they do Laughing

MachZERO
Minmatar
Spricer
Raiden.
Posted - 2005.11.26 15:26:00 - [233]
 

Time for possible solutions:

I'll start off...
-------------------
CCP SUSPENDS all GTC sales starting either Dec 1st or Jan 1st to allow all current auctions to end.

CCP could then setup a website to monitor and track all GTC sales to prevent abuse of this service by putting restrictions on how many cards are sold to and from each account on a per month or weekly basis.
-------------------

They would also have to ban trial accounts from the site but hey... it's a start.. right?

Regulation is probably the only true answer to this and even IT isn't pretty.



Kaeljen Dae
Minmatar
Lunatic Asylum
Posted - 2005.11.26 15:28:00 - [234]
 

Edited by: Kaeljen Dae on 26/11/2005 15:29:54
Originally by: MachZERO
Where do you get the 300 mil X 70k subscribers from?? All 3 of my accounts are paid up in 6 month intervals via VISA so you can subtract me, my 3 accounts and the thousands of other users that prepay their accounts up to a year from those exagerated numbers.

This whole issue is about to get the nerf bat from hell...

Very Happy


I was delimiting the maximum (70k suscribers×300mil) and the minimum (no additional ISK 'created' for this GTC-ing). We are obviously somewhere in between. This is basic math. The question is where. Thanks for "contributing" by stating that we will never have to calculate with 70k estimated accounts, rather with 69994 (adding mine too) estimated accounts. This has really brought us nearer to the truth Shocked
For those that didn't get it: I'm trying to say that there most probably _will_ be some kind of inflation since most "players who can finally join the game because of ISK-payed-GTCs instead of real money" will _have_ to make 300m ISK somehow, and I have a feeling that a big amount of it will be made by agent missions/mining which "creates" ISK as it's not gained through trade with other players. On the other hand I'm a player who pays real money and for weeks I am nowhere near 50m ISK "coming out of the NPC part of the game", as I don't have to waste 300m. So, who is more prone to creating more "new" ISK? ISK-GTC-based player or suscription/paypal/whatever RL money player? Will they also destroy more ingame ISK? The rich guys who traded the GTC with them will(by blowing up ships where you lose more value than you get from insurance?), but they will already have accelerated the inflation process since their bids raised the puts but the destruction of the ship didn't lower it, therefore making more people jump on the bandwagon (also known as vicious circle) and trying to make more money for those expensive items.

Originally by: Rod Blaine
And, a small yet mentionable side effect of this change is that montoring who buys timecards via forums and ingame mails is a damn lot easier then monitoring ebay or IGE use is isn't it ? At least the former allows CCP to check (if they would want to assign the manhours to do it), who is in fact buying timecard in bulk yet does not use them ?

Imo, CCP should actually support this via a distinct webtool that registers who buys and who sells, so that checks can be made and players that buy gtc's can be mobilised to actually prevent the farmers from getting in on the whole thing.


This goes against the philosophy of GTCs. The "great" thing about them now is that you can give them to anyone you want, you can even buy them at a shop. Therefore it's untrackable. I can buy 100 GTC's everyday and sell them in my booth... or I can buy 100 everyday as a "gift" for my neighbour who happens to present me with "20$" everyday. Wouldn't it be absurd to "ban" a GTC distributor from EVE or buying GTCs because one of his clients has sold a GTC for real money?
Joe buys a GTC, who gives it to his cousin, the cousin sells it on the trade forum for 300m. The guy who bought it for 300m happens to be evil Sam who sells it to his friend for RL cash who again sells it on e-bay to a CCP-detective, the code being "caught". Does Joe get banned now, or blackmailed by CCP to find out to who he gave it to?

Originally by: Khen
I've never considered playing EVE was a work or harassing, just FUN. I was lucky enough to get some isks from my activities in game. So please stop speaking of 'hard work in game', this is only a game, life is hard, not games. And if it is so hard, so competitive, if it stress you so much you should really consider about leaving the game.
You can rest assured that if EVE gets hard, tedious and screwed because I have to make a huge effort to fend off people with seemingly endless resources, I will leave the game more than gladly, cursing that I payed so much in advance.

*another edit because I wrote "quoute" instead of "quote";)

Arshes Nei
LifeLine Solutions
Posted - 2005.11.26 15:33:00 - [235]
 

Originally by: Dark Shikari
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 26/11/2005 14:43:10
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Not realistic, as explained by CCP.

I never saw this "explanation." I don't see why it isn't realistic. In a sting operation, you automatically get every single person who has ever transacted with the character.

If not a sting operation, just search for large numbers of round-sized donations.


Thats a good one, so honest players might get banned cause they dont know they shouldnt give their friends round donations. Do you have any idea how often i gave it round donations? And those dudes misusing the system will just use not so round numbers, but oc you can ban that too. Just ban everyone making a even or uneven donation. Oc that still leaves the problem of using the market or escrow with overpriced stuff ... lets ban that too Idea Both accounts involved in the buying of overpriced stuff should be banned, just to be safe.

P.S. You getting my drift here?

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.11.26 15:34:00 - [236]
 

Originally by: Arshes Nei
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 26/11/2005 14:43:10
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Not realistic, as explained by CCP.

I never saw this "explanation." I don't see why it isn't realistic. In a sting operation, you automatically get every single person who has ever transacted with the character.

If not a sting operation, just search for large numbers of round-sized donations.


Thats a good one, so honest players might get banned cause they dont know they shouldnt give their friends round donations. Do you have any idea how often i gave it round donations? And those dudes misusing the system will just use not so round numbers, but oc you can ban that too. Just ban everyone making a even or uneven donation. Oc that still leaves the problem of using the market or escrow with overpriced stuff ... lets ban that too Idea Both accounts involved in the buying of overpriced stuff should be banned, just to be safe.

P.S. You getting my drift here?

Farmers are too big of a business to use roundabout methods regularly.

In addition, round donations to many different unafilliated people is not a sure-fire thing--its simply evidence. You use it to narrow down your search criteria, to find evidence of eBaying.

Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2005.11.26 15:36:00 - [237]
 

Edited by: Rod Blaine on 26/11/2005 15:38:17
Quote:

This goes against the philosophy of GTCs. The "great" thing about them now is that you can give them to anyone you want, you can even buy them at a shop. Therefore it's untrackable. I can buy 100 GTC's everyday and sell them in my booth... or I can buy 100 everyday as a "gift" for my neighbour who happens to present me with "20$" everyday. Wouldn't it be absurd to "ban" a GTC distributor from EVE or buying GTCs because one of his clients has sold a GTC for real money?



GTC's are numbered, ranges are known, usage is traceable easily for CCP. If you buy 100 of them and they end up being used by all kinds of people whtout your wallet showing isk transactins for it I bet you'll be having a conversation with a GM telling you your account just got terminated, unless you can come up with a real good explanation for it.

And anyway, CCP is fully within its right to ban you for selling on or even giving away a GTC. As soon as they instate a rebursement policy on unused ones that is.

But of course they won't, just like they don't go and spend thousands of dollars cahsing down inviduals that buy 200m isk once on ebay. It's not effective to do so. It is however quite effective to skim off the top of the bulk selling and buying that goes on by something as simple as keeping tabs on who or what pays for how many codes that get used when and by what type of player distribution.

All in all, at the very least, assuming the worst, gametime codes as currency are way easier to trace then isk is.

Ishquar Teh'Sainte
Euphoria Released
Merciless.
Posted - 2005.11.26 15:37:00 - [238]
 

Ok, well i didn't read the WHOLE thread...
... but in some ways it belongs to me...

I'm just in my trial phase ... and orderd an 100day gtc ... cause the trial showed me: EVE is a fine mmog to me. Why I use gtc instead of "normal" subscribtion??

Here are the reasons:
1. I have no cc and the idea behind ccs is a bit obvious to me - let's say i don't like ccs Wink
2. If I subscribe on a regular basis ... well there' will be a regular money drain from my bank account ... around 13€ a month - it doesn't hurt. Due to GTCs i have to pay every 3 month 45€ BEFORE i can play - so I have to decide if the game is it worth to me. From the moneyside there's no much difference - the prize is almost the same - but it's a different perception.

I know - these reasons are almost of personal nature - if you understand it, it's fine - if not, it's also fine.


I understand your points on the topic of illegal use of GTCs. But what's the real problem??

Some are whining about "griefers", that get the same stuff as they do, but playing only a few percent of the "real needed" time.

Then I have to ask the following question: WHY are YOU playing??? "Achieving" a preset goal? Beeing the richest/most powerful avatar in the world of EVE? To gain might over others??

In my opinion, it's important to realize that EVE is a MMOG (massive multiplayer online game) ... I know it's idealistic to say: Interaction with OTHERS is the important thing multiplayer games and not the competition.

Hell, I know ... there are rules and presets in the game logic which force competition (Someone mentioned Hypercapitalism as the game rule of EVE) ... but do you really wanna say, you spent the last month and years in the game to get the biggest ship and the biggest wallet??

I think you played this game not for these goods (if so, you are in some way one of the griefers which play the game also to gain the biggest wallet - GTCs for ISK) - you played because you enjoyed it, enjoyed to interact with other people - to fight against them, to talk to them - because you had fun when you accomplished a mission you thought it was almost impossible to accomplish .. and not because it was your job.

imho we don't play the game for goods like money and the most expensive stuff ... when the party's over there won't be nothing left than our experience.

P.S.: i'm sorry of the extensive usage of the word "we", but i hope you understand it in the right way.

P.P.S.: i think you know "the great scam" ... the last paragraphs are the most interesting ;-) ... if you don't know the text - here's the link.the great scam

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.11.26 15:39:00 - [239]
 

Originally by: Rod Blaine
Quote:

This goes against the philosophy of GTCs. The "great" thing about them now is that you can give them to anyone you want, you can even buy them at a shop. Therefore it's untrackable. I can buy 100 GTC's everyday and sell them in my booth... or I can buy 100 everyday as a "gift" for my neighbour who happens to present me with "20$" everyday. Wouldn't it be absurd to "ban" a GTC distributor from EVE or buying GTCs because one of his clients has sold a GTC for real money?



GTC's are numbered, ranges are known, usage is traceable easily for CCP. If you buy 100 of them and they end up being used by all kinds of people I bet you'll be having a conversation with a GM telling you your account just got terminated, unless you can come up with a real good explanation for it.

And anyway, CCP is fully within its right to ban you for selling on or even giving away a GTC. As soon as they instate a rebursement policy on unused ones that is.

But of course they won't, just like they don't go and spend thousands of dollars cahsing down inviduals that buy 200m isk once on ebay. It's not effective to do so. It is however quite effective to skim off the top of the bulk selling and buying that goes on by something as simple as keeping tabs on who or what pays for how many codes that get used when and by what type of player distribution.

All in all, at the very least, assuming the worst, gametime codes as currency are way easier to trace then isk is.

So here's my question.

What will the line be? Is there going to be, say, a 5 card limit per person? What about alts?

Drilla
Yet Another Mining Corp
Posted - 2005.11.26 15:44:00 - [240]
 

1 pr. creditcard, pr. month.

If you at any time break the rules the GTC's sold are cancelled.

So the buyers would have to be careful who they buy from and not just some auction guy but a friend they know.


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