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d'hofren
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2005.11.26 11:17:00 - [181]
 

signed

Dkar
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2005.11.26 11:55:00 - [182]
 

signed

Alexia Sonique
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2005.11.26 12:03:00 - [183]
 

signed

Barbicane
TGUN Industries
Posted - 2005.11.26 12:05:00 - [184]
 

Signed.

No one is against the buyers of GTCs, it's the sellers who gain an unfair advantage. I do have a solution for this:

Make it possible to buy GTCs for isk directly from CCP! Problem solved.

HippoKing
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2005.11.26 12:12:00 - [185]
 

Originally by: Barbicane
Signed.

No one is against the buyers of GTCs, it's the sellers who gain an unfair advantage. I do have a solution for this:

Make it possible to buy GTCs for isk directly from CCP! Problem solved.



please don't say i have to point out why thats wrong...

Cute Babe
Posted - 2005.11.26 12:15:00 - [186]
 

Edited by: Cute Babe on 26/11/2005 12:15:39
Originally by: Barbicane
Signed.

No one is against the buyers of GTCs, it's the sellers who gain an unfair advantage. I do have a solution for this:

Make it possible to buy GTCs for isk directly from CCP! Problem solved.



That is not a solution for so many reasons. How is ccp going to make any money if the person who first buys the card buys it with game money? The whole concept atm is when people buy game cards, they originally came from ccp for real money, and eventually get traded between players for isk, either way ccp gets the real money involved.

If ccp sell the cards directly to the player for isk, they get no real money, and cause major inflation by generating extra isk into the game.

Try getting a clue before posting next time.

Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
Posted - 2005.11.26 12:41:00 - [187]
 

Originally by: KHEN
and BTW : 1 Bil is nothing, 10 bil still nothing, you would need a minimal 50-100 Bil to start to hope to influence somethin'


From what I seen, It wouldnt surprise me if someone already passed the 10 billion mark already regarding "buying isk". For 10 billion isk you can buy a lot in eve, which you would take long time else to aquire. If you are so naive to think that this doesn't affect the players and the game, well bad for you.

Heck, I had someone offer me 400$ for a Fenrir on trade chan (which earned him a petition), I dont know how many time cards that would get someone, but CCP really did open pandora's box with this one. Who need ebay when CCP did introduce the perfect solution for how real world cash can exchange hands for ingame cash and items.

Rich people who are able to dont care about what it cost them to get where they want, which makes a unstable playing field as whole. How the hell can regular players compete with deep pockets out of game? No matter how much time and effort you spend ingame you will get overrun by some titt with pockets full of time cards.

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.11.26 12:56:00 - [188]
 

Some info from help chat, for you all. The chats have been re-ordered to avoid the fact that due to the vast scrolling speed of help, conversations get a bit mixed up.

Dark Shikari > btw kieron do you have an official statement about the huge signed thread about the gametime card sales?
Dark Shikari > and the people mass-selling hundreds of them for ISK
kieron > DS, not yet.
Nayomi > so its not ok to sell game cards for isk?
Dark Shikari > it is, Nayomi
Dark Shikari > but IMO is wrong
Dark Shikari > a friend of mine racked up 4.5b in a few hours
Dark Shikari > and I've racked up my 3 billion in 6 months
Dark Shikari > and I feel a bit cheated tbh
kieron > As I stated in one of the *many* forum threads on this topic, we allowed the trade of ISK for TCs to help players that may be less financially fortunate and as an off-shoot of the ISK for game services policy
kieron > When we were discussing it, we had no idea that it would turn around and bite us in the butt.
kieron > I think the policy is going to be reviewed. More than that, I can't say right now

MachZERO
Minmatar
Spricer
Raiden.
Posted - 2005.11.26 12:56:00 - [189]
 

Originally by: ChainyMcSmoke

I mean how many people do you think are just going to sit idly by and watch others make billions of isk off this and not say to themselves "Hey, I want in on this as well" and before you know it an otherwise well intentioned loophole from the devs becomes the ONLY way to actually play the game.



And this is where supply and demand will kick in. When alot of people start selling the cards they will eventually dry up the demand for such cards. Which means fewer people will be buying time cards with isk because they now have a years worth of time cards. And now that fewer people are buying and more people are selling the price in isk for these cards will plummet. Why? It's simple. No one is buying and everyone is selling. Eventually the two will level out just like prices for products in real life. This is simple economics. Supply.. and Demand...

Originally by: ChainyMcSmoke
Another question is it seems that the original good intentions of the devs to bring the game to people whom might not otherwise be able to afford membership is going to in the end screw them over the most. I mean you will have the ability to play now but when everything costs 12,000% more because of inflation(and oh it will happen) why would you want to...nuff said.

wts 1 unit of bantam ....12billion isk or best offer

... the pure at heart and hard working players want to ban timecards to keep this game and everything about it sincere.



Where do you all keep getting these crystal balls that see so deep into the future that you are dead certain that time card sales will lead to inflation? Where's your proof for these claims? Are they even based on any tangible evidence within Eve? It's just basically pure speculation and nothing more.

And there seems to be this mass histeria that some omnipotent presense is gonna own all the isk in eve and corner every market and all of eve will have to bow before his godliness. What drugs are you paranoid ass people taking? Do you actually think that CCP is going to stand by and let a single person/character dictate to the server? For that matter do you think that the major Corporations and alliances will stand for it? The paranioa of the few is creating histeria of the masses.

It amazes me also how alot of the posts in this thread just say "signed" and nothing more. As if a bunch of sheep to the slaughter they blindly agree to the original posters plea without a moment of thought.

As for the guy that made 4 billion isk in a single day selling these cards (if he actually exists), hell, I aplaude you for using your brain and finding an easier way to becoming a multi-billionaire in eve. You my friend are a true capitalist and will fit nicely into Eve's cut-throat economy and culture.

KHEN
New Horizons
Posted - 2005.11.26 13:03:00 - [190]
 

Originally by: Dark Shikari

[size=2]Dark Shikari > btw kieron do you have an official statement about the huge signed thread about the gametime card sales?



less than 80 sig is not exactly what I would call "Huge". Presenting false informations results in getting very insignificant news :)

Derisor
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2005.11.26 13:20:00 - [191]
 

Originally by: Dark Shikari
Some info from help chat, for you all. The chats have been re-ordered to avoid the fact that due to the vast scrolling speed of help, conversations get a bit mixed up.

Dark Shikari > btw kieron do you have an official statement about the huge signed thread about the gametime card sales?
Dark Shikari > and the people mass-selling hundreds of them for ISK
kieron > DS, not yet.
Nayomi > so its not ok to sell game cards for isk?
Dark Shikari > it is, Nayomi
Dark Shikari > but IMO is wrong
Dark Shikari > a friend of mine racked up 4.5b in a few hours
Dark Shikari > and I've racked up my 3 billion in 6 months
Dark Shikari > and I feel a bit cheated tbh
kieron > As I stated in one of the *many* forum threads on this topic, we allowed the trade of ISK for TCs to help players that may be less financially fortunate and as an off-shoot of the ISK for game services policy
kieron > When we were discussing it, we had no idea that it would turn around and bite us in the butt.
kieron > I think the policy is going to be reviewed. More than that, I can't say right now



Sony Online Entertainment once thought this. OOPS. They lost some 60% of their player base from EQ2. Log on today and you will see that the game is totally empty, not one server ever has more than minimal load. The fact is that this is nothing more than legitimizing eBaying of in-game goods and trying to take a piece of the action.

Yes, you might make some few customers happy. You might even make a hundred or so stay in the game when they might of quit. There are people, without a doubt, that would like this sort of mechanism. On the other hand you will lose vastly more players that absolutley hate the idea on principal as in practice.

MMOGs have always fought the eBaying of in game items and we were comfortable with that. However, recently at least one game has jumped into the eBay bandwagon and has gotten crushed in the process. I was leader of a large and famous guild in EQ2 until station exchange. After which the guild lost some 80% of its members to simply quitting the game. I would bet that if SOE could wind back the hands of the clock they would slap the guy that came up with the SOE Exchange idea; possibly using a sharp object. And not even SOE was dumb enough to change a live server to do this sort of thing; regardless many of the people left on principal.

So its simple. Do you please a small and vocal minority and in the process alienate the majority of your mainstream and vetran players? Doesnt seem like a very smart decision to me. I personally could see no reason to support a company that tells their customers, "Thanks for playing 3 years but now im afraid we will have to massively cheapen your accomplishments to please a small minority and sell more time cards."

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.11.26 13:22:00 - [192]
 

Originally by: Derisor
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Some info from help chat, for you all. The chats have been re-ordered to avoid the fact that due to the vast scrolling speed of help, conversations get a bit mixed up.

Dark Shikari > btw kieron do you have an official statement about the huge signed thread about the gametime card sales?
Dark Shikari > and the people mass-selling hundreds of them for ISK
kieron > DS, not yet.
Nayomi > so its not ok to sell game cards for isk?
Dark Shikari > it is, Nayomi
Dark Shikari > but IMO is wrong
Dark Shikari > a friend of mine racked up 4.5b in a few hours
Dark Shikari > and I've racked up my 3 billion in 6 months
Dark Shikari > and I feel a bit cheated tbh
kieron > As I stated in one of the *many* forum threads on this topic, we allowed the trade of ISK for TCs to help players that may be less financially fortunate and as an off-shoot of the ISK for game services policy
kieron > When we were discussing it, we had no idea that it would turn around and bite us in the butt.
kieron > I think the policy is going to be reviewed. More than that, I can't say right now



Sony Online Entertainment once thought this. OOPS. They lost some 60% of their player base from EQ2. Log on today and you will see that the game is totally empty, not one server ever has more than minimal load. The fact is that this is nothing more than legitimizing eBaying of in-game goods and trying to take a piece of the action.

Yes, you might make some few customers happy. You might even make a hundred or so stay in the game when they might of quit. There are people, without a doubt, that would like this sort of mechanism. On the other hand you will lose vastly more players that absolutley hate the idea on principal as in practice.

MMOGs have always fought the eBaying of in game items and we were comfortable with that. However, recently at least one game has jumped into the eBay bandwagon and has gotten crushed in the process. I was leader of a large and famous guild in EQ2 until station exchange. After which the guild lost some 80% of its members to simply quitting the game. I would bet that if SOE could wind back the hands of the clock they would slap the guy that came up with the SOE Exchange idea; possibly using a sharp object. And not even SOE was dumb enough to change a live server to do this sort of thing; regardless many of the people left on principal.

So its simple. Do you please a small and vocal minority and in the process alienate the majority of your mainstream and vetran players? Doesnt seem like a very smart decision to me. I personally could see no reason to support a company that tells their customers, "Thanks for playing 3 years but now im afraid we will have to massively cheapen your accomplishments to please a small minority and sell more time cards."

This is very bad. I'm agreeing with Derisor.

Kcel Chim
Caldari
Arcane Technologies
The Five
Posted - 2005.11.26 13:24:00 - [193]
 

Edited by: Kcel Chim on 26/11/2005 13:27:09
wont sign it because i think that the ppl who actually whine about it are selfish bastards.

Why are you bothered how quick someone else gains money ? You are playing this game for your own joy not to compete with others who has the longest epeen or who can gather quicker money.

Its very dangerous to put everyone selling gamecards into the same corner. You know some ppl (like kieron described) actually do it to support their friends or the community which otherwise couldnt play. You might not care about that but others do.
Same reason ppl sell teamspeak, killboard, webpages, webspace and other features for isk. Not everyone is from a rich country and can afford "just 15 euro" a month. In some countries ppl earn 15 euro for a whole 40h workweek, just as a reminder.

Ive personally never sold nor bought gamecards so dont make any assumptions. However i know ppl who depend on those gc for isk deals as they have no other way to keep playing and as other options are not possible in thier countries (not everyone in the balkan/asia/russia/afrika/southamerica/etc i.e. have a cc or every bank there allows moneytransfers as easily and quickly (and without high fees) as it is common in europe or america.

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.11.26 13:27:00 - [194]
 

Originally by: Kcel Chim
wont sign it because i think that the ppl who actually whine about it are selfish bastards.

Why are you bothered how quick someone else gains money ? You are playing this game for your own joy not to compete with others who has the longest epeen or who can gather quicker money.


But we do. Competition is how EVE works. When people come onto the market buying things with huge amounts of money that they just pulled out of their ass, it hurts everyone else.
Quote:

Its very dangerous to put everyone selling gamecards into the same corner. You know some ppl (like kieron described) actually do it to support their friends or the community which otherwise couldnt play. You might not care about that but others do.
Same reason ppl sell teamspeak, killboard, webpages, webspace and other features for isk. Bot everyone is from a rich country and can afford "just 15 euro" a month. In some countries ppl earn 15 euro for a whole 40h workweek, just as a reminder.


The vast majority of cards sold, going by Sell Orders, are people who bought like 50 and went to resell them. Now those people have 15 billion or more ISK.
Quote:

Ive personally never sold nor bought gamecards so dont make any assumptions. However i know ppl who depend on those gc for isk deals as they have no other way to keep playing and as other options are not possible in thier countries (not everyone in the balkan/asia/russia/afrika/southamerica/etc i.e. have a cc or every bank there allows moneytransfers as easily and quickly (and without high fees) as it is common in europe or america.

You don't need a bank. You don't need a money transfer. Get a goddamned envelope, and put on enough postage to send it to the US. Address it to PayByCash's HQ in Virginia, and put money in it. Need US currency? Go to the airport, convert some money, fees usually are pretty low.

Tobiaz
Spacerats
Posted - 2005.11.26 13:36:00 - [195]
 

Originally by: Barbicane
Signed.


Make it possible to buy GTCs for isk directly from CCP! Problem solved.



Laughing

You might want to think that over Einstein Rolling Eyes

Kcel Chim
Caldari
Arcane Technologies
The Five
Posted - 2005.11.26 13:36:00 - [196]
 

Originally by: Dark Shikari
But we do. Competition is how EVE works. When people come onto the market buying things with huge amounts of money that they just pulled out of their ass, it hurts everyone else.


That you are bothered shows how hard you struggle to gather money. As for the "huge amounts of money", that money existed already and for you it makes no difference if the guy who buys the gc or the one who sells it reinvests it into the market. The isk process is closed which means that the gc seller is not printing new isk but only trading an item (which will not influence the game bar activating an account out of game) for ingame currency which already exists.

Quote:

The vast majority of cards sold, going by Sell Orders, are people who bought like 50 and went to resell them. Now those people have 15 billion or more ISK.


Ive also 15 billion or more ISK, honestly if ure not an uber active player u will hardly invest everything of it at a time. More likely ull have assets and a fat wallet.
If u are very active and a producer, you are actually helping the community and playing your game. However those 15 bln isk are in the system anyways and its not different from a corp buying stuff from money its members gathered (communist corps ftw).

Quote:

You don't need a bank. You don't need a money transfer. Get a goddamned envelope, and put on enough postage to send it to the US. Address it to PayByCash's HQ in Virginia, and put money in it. Need US currency? Go to the airport, convert some money, fees usually are pretty low.

Ah right you convert money at the airport or send it via mail to america. How long does a mail take and will it hit ground in countries with rather dubious, corrupt postal systems ? Not to mention that some places are 500+ km from international airports. Ever tried to exchange money in the deepest ukraine? good luck.

Derisor
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2005.11.26 13:36:00 - [197]
 

Edited by: Derisor on 26/11/2005 13:40:26
Originally by: Kcel Chim
wont sign it because i think that the ppl who actually whine about it are selfish bastards.


How exactly is it being selfish to have what one worked for not be cheapened by some idiot who bought 5 time codes and never worked for a single isk? Please explain that to me.

At any rate you objects are irrelevant. Its a stupid business decision to **** off 60% of your customer base and have 40% of long term coustomer quit in order to keep 10% accounts 3 more months before they quit anyway. So whether you approve of the idea on principle or not is irrelevant. Its an idiotic business decision.

Originally by: Kcel Chim
Why are you bothered how quick someone else gains money ? You are playing this game for your own joy not to compete with others who has the longest epeen or who can gather quicker money.


The heart of the game is competition. Lets say we both enter a marathon and I start running and make my best time ever. When Im 1 mile from the finish line, you show up on a motorcycle because you paid the motorcyclist 100 euros to drive yout to 100 feet from the finish line. Should that affect me? Should it matter to me that you get accolades for cheating when I busted my buns and made my best time ever? Its the same concept. People in the game have invested their time and energy into getting to where they are. Yet you want to say "we will cheapen all of that by giving it to this guy with 3 time codes." You may please a few people but Id never run the marathon that allowed that ever again and many people would leave Eve because of it.

There is historical precedent. SOE destroyed EQ2 by doing something similar.

Originally by: Kcel Chim
Its very dangerous to put everyone selling gamecards into the same corner. You know some ppl (like kieron described) actually do it to support their friends or the community which otherwise couldnt play. You might not care about that but others do.
Same reason ppl sell teamspeak, killboard, webpages, webspace and other features for isk. Bot everyone is from a rich country and can afford "just 15 euro" a month. In some countries ppl earn 15 euro for a whole 40h workweek, just as a reminder.


You get what you earn in life. You are not entitled to anything and I dont think anyone will starve to death from not playing eve. At any rate, again, its a stupid business decision.

Originally by: Kcel Chim
Ive personally never sold nor bought gamecards so dont make any assumptions. However i know ppl who depend on those gc for isk deals as they have no other way to keep playing and as other options are not possible in thier countries (not everyone in the balkan/asia/russia/afrika/southamerica/etc i.e. have a cc or every bank there allows moneytransfers as easily and quickly (and without high fees) as it is common in europe or america.


Lets not whine for the poor now. With the hardware you need to play Eve combined with the bandwidth and so on, there is no one playing it from a grass hut in the the sub-sahara. Keep the pitty ploys out and stay rational please.

Assuming the person in Russia cant afford to play eve, does that mean its right to cheapen the accomplishments of thousands of players to let that one person do what he shouldnt be doing in the first place. Eve is entertainment, not a basic staple of the diet. If you cant afford to play it, you shouldnt play it.

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.11.26 13:38:00 - [198]
 

Originally by: Kcel Chim
Originally by: Dark Shikari
But we do. Competition is how EVE works. When people come onto the market buying things with huge amounts of money that they just pulled out of their ass, it hurts everyone else.


That you are bothered shows how hard you struggle to gather money. As for the "huge amounts of money", that money existed already and for you it makes no difference if the guy who buys the gc or the one who sells it reinvests it into the market. The isk process is closed which means that the gc seller is not printing new isk but only trading an item (which will not influence the game bar activating an account out of game) for ingame currency which already exists.


What they do is gather ISK from everyone else, putting it all in one wallet.

I will link you to a post of mine a while back that explains a bit how this can cause problems.

Kcel Chim
Caldari
Arcane Technologies
The Five
Posted - 2005.11.26 13:54:00 - [199]
 

@ derisor, those are your views. Please dont talk for "the community".

You get annoyed that someone has an easy way to isk ? So ure also getting annoyed at ppl who are lucky and get a t2 print ? Or to the guy getting a few officer spawns while u might npc 10h a day and not see a single one ?
Or are you angry with the ppl who offer TS and other usefull tools for isk aswell. Which practically dont require activites at all ?

Seems youre a very angry and envious person.

As for the competition, some ppl like myself play the game for recreation, fun, some m8s and did i mention fun ?

After 2 years ive stopped somewhere along the line to envy ppl or to feel inferior if they are richer or more successfull. Especially if the universe is huge enough to ensure it wont bother me at all if some fella 150 jumps away makes his money only from gamecards.
The main issue here is not the gamecards but more your envy ridden and uberly competitive approach to the game.
Some have that already IRL and just want to relax and have fun, consider different playstyles aswell when u try to swing yourself on the lead of the community.

As for the pot shots towards other ppl and how poor they are, grow up abit and maybe change ur attitude. Cheapen your achievements ? LMAO. What have u achieved what not anyone with tons of time at his hand can achieve ?

mmporgs are timesinks they have a low skill requirement level (to attract more ppl) and have no rankings for a very obvious reason (to prevent the overly competitive from driving away others because they have to rub it in every day).

You honestly think a pvper or an agentrunner or a roleplayer cares if someone has 100 bln isk in his wallet and gathered those through selling gcs ? Honestly said in my humble opinion its more likely that a person who sold enough gamecards for this stunt will sooner or later quit the game because he will lack the ticklish feeling of "did it my way" to quote sinatra.

P.S. even without gamecards ppl used ebay and were rarely caught (some still do), not to mention private deals in corps etc. So again ull not change anything bar disadvantaging a few ppl and driving them into illegality.

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.11.26 13:56:00 - [200]
 

Originally by: Kcel Chim
@ derisor, those are your views. Please dont talk for "the community".

You get annoyed that someone has an easy way to isk ? So ure also getting annoyed at ppl who are lucky and get a t2 print ? Or to the guy getting a few officer spawns while u might npc 10h a day and not see a single one ?
Or are you angry with the ppl who offer TS and other usefull tools for isk aswell. Which practically dont require activites at all ?

Seems youre a very angry and envious person.

As for the competition, some ppl like myself play the game for recreation, fun, some m8s and did i mention fun ?

After 2 years ive stopped somewhere along the line to envy ppl or to feel inferior if they are richer or more successfull. Especially if the universe is huge enough to ensure it wont bother me at all if some fella 150 jumps away makes his money only from gamecards.
The main issue here is not the gamecards but more your envy ridden and uberly competitive approach to the game.
Some have that already IRL and just want to relax and have fun, consider different playstyles aswell when u try to swing yourself on the lead of the community.

As for the pot shots towards other ppl and how poor they are, grow up abit and maybe change ur attitude. Cheapen your achievements ? LMAO. What have u achieved what not anyone with tons of time at his hand can achieve ?

mmporgs are timesinks they have a low skill requirement level (to attract more ppl) and have no rankings for a very obvious reason (to prevent the overly competitive from driving away others because they have to rub it in every day).

You honestly think a pvper or an agentrunner or a roleplayer cares if someone has 100 bln isk in his wallet and gathered those through selling gcs ? Honestly said in my humble opinion its more likely that a person who sold enough gamecards for this stunt will sooner or later quit the game because he will lack the ticklish feeling of "did it my way" to quote sinatra.

P.S. even without gamecards ppl used ebay and were rarely caught (some still do), not to mention private deals in corps etc. So again ull not change anything bar disadvantaging a few ppl and driving them into illegality.

Being that EVE is a game about hypercapitalism and competition, any argument saying that competing with others is not important is automatically bunk.

Kcel Chim
Caldari
Arcane Technologies
The Five
Posted - 2005.11.26 14:07:00 - [201]
 

Originally by: Dark Shikari

Being that EVE is a game about hypercapitalism and competition, any argument saying that competing with others is not important is automatically bunk.


Is that the case ? RP'ers i.e. play for the atmosphere not to win. Agentrunners run missions not in direct competition with others as noone can influence the rewards or drops.
Miners dont compete with anyone, they invest time to gather money. A new player doesnt compete with anyone, he explores the world, upgrades his character and hardware and makes friends. As u might have gahtered he is not competing with anyone else.

Competing in eve is also not really possible. There is no real death or defeat, your skills are gathered by time (which means theoretically you can never compete for skillpoints with someone who is longer in the game).
Eve economy is based on skill and indeed is competative however it doesnt require a genius and it is (apart from t2) no universal competition either (especially with the local hub changes).

Competition only really applies to 100% in pvp where its basically either or and not "with" hostile others.

mmporgs are timesinks, let me stress this out. Everything is achieveable without competition by just investing X hours. One of the great features eve offers, called soloplay. In general as a conclusion from this, ppl play to advance their own character and their direct surrounding without any universal or direct competition unless the guns speak or you walk into the t2 market (due to limited bpo numbers).

MachZERO
Minmatar
Spricer
Raiden.
Posted - 2005.11.26 14:07:00 - [202]
 

Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Kcel Chim
Originally by: Dark Shikari
But we do. Competition is how EVE works. When people come onto the market buying things with huge amounts of money that they just pulled out of their ass, it hurts everyone else.


That you are bothered shows how hard you struggle to gather money. As for the "huge amounts of money", that money existed already and for you it makes no difference if the guy who buys the gc or the one who sells it reinvests it into the market. The isk process is closed which means that the gc seller is not printing new isk but only trading an item (which will not influence the game bar activating an account out of game) for ingame currency which already exists.


What they do is gather ISK from everyone else, putting it all in one wallet.

I will link you to a post of mine a while back that explains a bit how this can cause problems.


Damn Dark... Pretty soon you are going to run out of people to quote and have to start quoteing yourself.

I've personally washed my hands of this little issue cause I know now that CCP is aware of it and will either give it a thumbs up.. or thumbs down.. But don't think for a second that the financial department of CCP won't get a word in edge wise. I bet if they comb over the past few months data that time card sales will have contributed a nice sum towards keeping the servers running and RMR on schedule.

Keep that in mind. Good luck with your Crusade.

They often do more harm than good...


Arshes Nei
LifeLine Solutions
Posted - 2005.11.26 14:09:00 - [203]
 

Originally by: Dark Shikari

What they do is gather ISK from everyone else, putting it all in one wallet.



Now i get it ... you deeply hate communist corps, as they work together and have much more money than you as a person, but since you would sound silly demanding from ccp that people should not be allowed to work together, you go for the next best thing, which is this Laughing. j/k Wink

Btw, they hardly gather isk from anyone. Only from people buying the GTCs obviously, so just dont buy them for isk.

On another post:

And from all i know this is not very similar to SOEs deal, not even close, so that doesnt count as a precedent for this. Besides there are also 2 things which influenced the downfall of EQ2 also:

1) It sucks
2) Lots of competition(WoW anyone? Dont tell me you think they have 4mil first time mmorpg subscribers)

People just needed a little nudge to leave the sinking ship.

I mean someone said the people left on principle even though it wasnt allowed on their servers. So people will leave eve when ebaying gets allowed on the chinise eve server? Out of principle? I think most will stay and say sod principles, i dont care what happens on some other eve server Laughing

Anyway why dont you people wait till it starts to have some of the more severe side effects people are mentioning here? Its just a simple rule set by gms and devs, they can change it almost immediatly if it ever starts to be a problem. Just because you dont see the advantages this has for alot of people, the gms and devs and alot of other people thankfully do.

Kaeljen Dae
Minmatar
Lunatic Asylum
Posted - 2005.11.26 14:19:00 - [204]
 

Originally by: Taketa De
The last part however a bit strange for me, because nobody is upset if people don't have an equivalent amount of time to compete. That is considered quite fair.


It is fair because we joined the game from the beginning knowing that you'd have to spend money to gain riches and advance. You can bet your ass on the fact that if the feature's page had read "Advance in the game buy investing time or dollars!" I wouldn't have taken it. Problem is I invested the time (and hell, I had loads of fun) because it was the only (legal) way and now all of a sudden that changes and I think I don't like it. (haven't played SOE though, don't want to try it either)

[quoute=Drille]1) They make money of it so they dont care and principles are not something thats valued at CCP HQ.

2) They already admitted once in the last month or so that they were wrong about something.

3) They make money of it ...

Linkage

Quoting ChainyMcSmoke <- You are my hero, shows that rich as well as poor players agree on this.

BTW I yet have to see the claims of those saying that those on the anti-GTC are "rich in game" demonstrated. For your statistics:
my current wallet data: 48mio, own 3 insured BS, some ints, got some refinable assets, been 2 years in the game playing.

Originally by: Arshes Nei
Actually i was talking about something like this thread But nobody is interested in real solutions. People rather scream banz0r! as we all know that is the most sensible solution to this complex problem ...


If there's a working way to minimize the negative effects and maximize the benefits for those that can't pay otherwise for their accounts. I'll be the first in line. There should also be a limit on how many GTCs u can buy for ISK, so people can't hoard GTCs and resell them for money elsewhere. Thx for making a step in that direction, Arshes.

Originally by: Arshes Nei
P.S. Please explain me how this affects the integrity of the game, it has to be in such a devilish way that the gms and devs couldnt foresee it after discussing this for months. If people would actually explain the devs and gms how this will ruin the game or economy instead of making pointless sign threads, maybe you would actually reach your goal as im sure ccp dont want this game to be ruined.


Done here and here among others. Further evidence comes in form of other games I'm sure of the example in form of SoE. Also, look at the chat with Kieron (linkage in this same post).

Quote:
Someone please give me a REAL example of how the selling of time cards for isk has impacted your personal gameplay in eve. And I mean REAL... not some made up hypothetical bull$hit that involves e-bay and a make believe far far away reality but something that has happened to you personally in eve due to time card sells...
Same goes for you as for Arshes: other games like SoE are evidence.

[Quote=Arshes Nei]This actually will lead to a increase in high price products that get seldom sold like tech 2 bpos, but at the same time also in a decrease in prices of normal stuff. Why? Well cause a single player gets alot of isk to spend in a auction and several other players get less to spend on normal market.


Overall inflation caused by people having to grind 250-300m ISK per 90 days which in the best of cases won't affect the amount of ISK generated by all tranq (all gain more now anyway), in the worst case it'd generate 300mioŚ70k accounts more (all buy GTC and 0 gaining now). We will most probably end inbetween

Deja Thoris
Invicta.
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2005.11.26 14:19:00 - [205]
 

Originally by: Dark Shikari

This is very bad. I'm agreeing with Derisor.


Me tooVery Happy

Amerame
Kernel of War
Posted - 2005.11.26 14:25:00 - [206]
 

Edited by: Amerame on 26/11/2005 14:25:53
Do you think that people who are abusing this system would not get ISK through ebay ? Ebayers existed long before eve existed, there is pretty much no way to stop it.
Would there be more or less people buying ISK without it beeing legal ? Probably less, but to what extend ? who can tell, I mean except Derisor who would make statistics out of his ass saying there'd be 50% less isk buyers.
Fact is it would still be people to buy billions of ISK, probably a number of the same scale.
Now would you rather have CCP get the money or some player get it ? It is not a trivial issue, if people have an incentive to give the money to CCP instead of Yantis&co they will do it. There are two side to this problem, buyer and sellers, if sellers are also players, this mean you're more likely to have macrominers, farmers of all kind living off ISKs.
What will disrupt your gameplay the most ? Macrominer, farmers or people who buy ISK ?

As for not being "fair", MMORPG are not fair. How you are doing in game depends essentialy of real life factors : how long can you play a day, how many RL friends you have playing the game, can you run 2,3, 5 account at the same time ?

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.11.26 14:26:00 - [207]
 

Edited by: Dark Shikari on 26/11/2005 14:27:12
Originally by: Amerame

Do you think that people who are abusing this system would not get ISK through ebay ?

No.

The same friend I talked about earlier only started selling gametime cards once he realized he couldn't get banned for it, and it was allowed.

He would never think of eBaying, tbh.

Haulsalot
Posted - 2005.11.26 14:29:00 - [208]
 

Originally by: Kcel Chim
Edited by: Kcel Chim on 26/11/2005 13:27:09
wont sign it because i think that the ppl who actually whine about it are selfish bastards.

Why are you bothered how quick someone else gains money ? You are playing this game for your own joy not to compete with others who has the longest epeen or who can gather quicker money.

Its very dangerous to put everyone selling gamecards into the same corner. You know some ppl (like kieron described) actually do it to support their friends or the community which otherwise couldnt play. You might not care about that but others do.
Same reason ppl sell teamspeak, killboard, webpages, webspace and other features for isk. Not everyone is from a rich country and can afford "just 15 euro" a month. In some countries ppl earn 15 euro for a whole 40h workweek, just as a reminder.

Ive personally never sold nor bought gamecards so dont make any assumptions. However i know ppl who depend on those gc for isk deals as they have no other way to keep playing and as other options are not possible in thier countries (not everyone in the balkan/asia/russia/afrika/southamerica/etc i.e. have a cc or every bank there allows moneytransfers as easily and quickly (and without high fees) as it is common in europe or america.


flat out, if they can't afford it, then why the f are they playing the game.

excuses for exploits are endless, and the attempt to rationlalize the use of exploits is idiotic.

ther are other means CCP could use to sell time, but if timecards were removed to stop the exploiting of their sales, I could care less.

as far as helping your buddies and family play, when they dont have a cc#...use yours, have them pay YOU back.


Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2005.11.26 14:36:00 - [209]
 

Edited by: Rod Blaine on 26/11/2005 14:37:07
I'd like to convert this otherwise utterly useless and argument-poor thread to a real discussion by pointing you to my post here

Allowing regulated sales of gametime cards is actually arguably a good thing, depending on your priorities when it comes to choosig between two evils:

- influence of rl welath on igname wealth
- isk farmer activity within Eve.

I'd say teh altter is the most disturbing personally, the greater evil in this case. The former, regulated by the current allowing of sales of gtc's, actually has a possibly very negative influence on the latter.

So, very much NOT signed I'm afraid.

edit: btw, most people would not regard me as wealthy in real life, and I have not nor will use any rl cash to further my ingame wealth or power, period.

Irrilian
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2005.11.26 14:39:00 - [210]
 

Signed.


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