open All Channels
seplocked EVE General Discussion
blankseplocked sign here to BAN timecard sales
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: first : previous : 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 9 ... : last (16)

Author Topic

HippoKing
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2005.11.25 17:32:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: Omniwar
your all just upset cause u are poor suckers in real life and u can't buy timecards....just do it yourself and get rich !!! WOOHOO !!! Laughing


must.. not... troll....

/hides under his bridge to avoid another forum warning

HippoKing
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2005.11.25 17:49:00 - [122]
 

Edited by: HippoKing on 25/11/2005 17:49:09
oh yeah, i forgot to say:

/signed Cool

i don't want eve to go all SOE on my ass. there is a quote round here somewhere from kieron saying "there are no plans for SOE to take over EVE".
thats no excuse for CCP to turn into SOE (we're not there yet, nowhere near, but it still feels like we keep getting closer)

The Wizz117
Reikoku
KenZoku
Posted - 2005.11.25 18:03:00 - [123]
 

Originally by: HippoKing
Edited by: HippoKing on 25/11/2005 17:49:09
oh yeah, i forgot to say:

/signed Cool

i don't want eve to go all SOE on my ass. there is a quote round here somewhere from kieron saying "there are no plans for SOE to take over EVE".
thats no excuse for CCP to turn into SOE (we're not there yet, nowhere near, but it still feels like we keep getting closer)


i just bought mine, i can play this game for free :)

i just can't afford the psp, x360 AND eve-online ( dont have a job 15-y/o)

maybe ccp should sell these time codes for 300 mil iskYARRRR!!
and give the mony to the

Gummi
Posted - 2005.11.25 18:13:00 - [124]
 

Here is a thought, I dont have them much Embarassed

1 Billion isk currently sells on ebay for about $225
90 day GTC $38.95 Currently selling for 300mill

Therefore 1Bill isk costs you $129.50.. thats a cool $95.50 profit for the ebay isk sellers. Without the hassle of macromining, etc.

Either this is very clever on CCP's part, to reduce the ammount of macrominers, or very silly to allow ebayers make easy money.

This could have been posted earlier, but I am too lazy to read through 5 pages.

Gummi



Al Thorr
Caldari
The Wheel
Posted - 2005.11.25 18:16:00 - [125]
 

Signed, Signed, Nay Thrice Signed


Slink Grinsdikild
Brotherhood of Wolves
Astral Wolves
Posted - 2005.11.25 18:35:00 - [126]
 

Signed.

Thats my 15 bucks a month talking there, for what its worth. But we all know CCP couldn't care less.

Joshua Foiritain
Gallente
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2005.11.25 18:58:00 - [127]
 

Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 25/11/2005 19:04:06

I wish i too had enough money to buy 10 GTC, then i would be a billionaire and a t2 bpo owner. If only i had more money, i too could buy myself an ingame advantage.

Legalized ISK selling 4tl.

Originally by: kieron
the thought that we were inadvertently allowing the 'sale of ISK for RL cash' didn't occur to us.

Righto... Neutral

Xeaon
Minmatar
Lollipops for Rancors
REIGN Alliance
Posted - 2005.11.25 19:00:00 - [128]
 

Signed.

Please god don't let eve turn into another corporate money maker Confused

Yarek Balear
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2005.11.25 19:04:00 - [129]
 

/Signed

Giganticus
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2005.11.25 19:11:00 - [130]
 

Edited by: Giganticus on 25/11/2005 19:12:04
Two main problems with the whole ISK for timecards deal:

1. People with more RL money are able to get more out of the game. This is essentially, not fair. People should have to earn their money ingame, in order to preserve the many market and gameplay elements involved. Could you imagine trying to take on an alliance made of RL rich folk? You destroy all their Dreads and POS, and they just buy more. You can't afford to lose a single Dread, but they might as well be made of Cap Recharger 2 BPOs, you'll never be able to wear your enemy down. Also, if suddenly loads of players have lots of ISK, the market inflates and those that can't afford to buy timecards cannot keep up, and are priced out of the game. Unless of course they grind an incredible amount, which ruins their gaming experience. Not a fair system huh?

2. The buying of timecards for ISK unfairly rewards those who choose one style of gameplay over another. Namely, high profit areas like trading and mining. PvPers will be forced to pay more, they cannot afford to buy timecards with ISK and will be the most likely people to buy ISK, as they generally have lower balances. PvPers pay a premium and the Miners/Traders/Manufacturers get their kicks for free (with a very low chance of losing any ISK either, unlike PvPers). Not to mention the "sweatshop" ISK sellers can now make free trial accounts, make huge amounts of macroed ISK, buy timecards so they can mine more ISK, and sell it on Ebay. 100% profit, fully paid for by others to keep ruining the game. CCP wont ever be able to stop them either, as they'll never have to give an address or credit card details to keep playing.

EDIT: So um, yeah, signed and all that.

Saeris Tal'Urduar
Amarr
Posted - 2005.11.25 19:18:00 - [131]
 

I'm 60/40 on it.
But I agree I think it should stop.
Its giving people with RL money an unfair advantage to gain isk.

Chadawahee
Amarr
Debiloff
Posted - 2005.11.25 19:24:00 - [132]
 

signed

Lanu
0utbreak
Outbreak.
Posted - 2005.11.25 19:49:00 - [133]
 

Signed, it makes absolutly no sense at all.

Angelina Starshot
Posted - 2005.11.25 20:15:00 - [134]
 

Not signed.

I've sold quite a few timecards, and i know what the people who buy from from me have to say, ive had a few people buy them who otherwise would not have been able to play eve, but as for the majority of people buying cards, they have been either trying to pay of there eve suscription for a long time into the future, or people have been reopening up there old extra accounts which they no longer used because they couldnt afford to pay for 2.

Either way CCP is getting a lot more suscriptions out of people who otherwise would have been unable. Those of you who are threatening to quit over it, if you wern't so addicted you wouldnt be posting in this thread, you wont quit Very Happy

Galk
Gallente
Autumn Tactics
All the things she said
Posted - 2005.11.25 20:52:00 - [135]
 

Edited by: Galk on 25/11/2005 20:53:15
I don't belive anyone is saying they will quit.

Just voicing their displeasure at ccp.

It's very sad that they allow people to buy large ammounts of timecards for the sole purpose of selling them for isk to purchase ingame items of great value.

Sadly the upside is easy to see, as ofcourse you point out many times,though i belive you certainly don't buy large ammounts of timecodes for the good of other players, or to help ccp.

But that is my opinion, it's not a flame, it's just what i think about your practice, and that of ccp allowing it to happen.

Arshes Nei
LifeLine Solutions
Posted - 2005.11.25 21:08:00 - [136]
 

Not signed.

Originally by: Kaeljen Dae
Signed.
GTCs for ISK is one of CCP's greatest errors if you ask me. I think that the only way of gaining things on Tranquility should be by
a) paying for an account and therefore being able to play (time = RL money but also tranquility ISK)
b) Spending time in the game to make money.



So you say time(ingame) = isk(ingame), yet you dont want to allow trading one for the other?

-----------

This is not just about people gaining isk by spending rl money, thats only half of the deal(and the controversial part i agree). This is also just as much about people gaining ingame time by spending isk.

Imho i would like to see a way where the stuff like 'rl money ---> billions of isk' players (like Dark Shikari's friend) get stopped, while the 'isk ---> Gametime' way stays as it is.

I.e. only allow small time selling of gametimecards(no traders announcing they have only 200 cards left so get em quick).

P.S. I hope that wasnt to constructive for a sign thread Embarassed
P.P.S. Obviously that would be hard to control but it would make people feel better i guess.

Syris Anu
Blue Republic
Posted - 2005.11.25 21:15:00 - [137]
 

Signed. CCP needs to make a decision between one of two options:

1. Out of game actions cannot result in in-game rewards (no time cards, no ISK sales, no eBay, no special in-game items for attending FanFest. etc/)
2. People are free to do whatever they want with their virtual items and characters (eBay, ISK sales, etc.)

The key is a CONSISTENT PRINCIPLE. Selling of time cards creates an inconsistent principle compared to the EULA. Change one or the other policies.

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.11.25 21:18:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: Arshes Nei
Not signed.

Originally by: Kaeljen Dae
Signed.
GTCs for ISK is one of CCP's greatest errors if you ask me. I think that the only way of gaining things on Tranquility should be by
a) paying for an account and therefore being able to play (time = RL money but also tranquility ISK)
b) Spending time in the game to make money.



So you say time(ingame) = isk(ingame), yet you dont want to allow trading one for the other?

-----------

This is not just about people gaining isk by spending rl money, thats only half of the deal(and the controversial part i agree). This is also just as much about people gaining ingame time by spending isk.

Imho i would like to see a way where the stuff like 'rl money ---> billions of isk' players (like Dark Shikari's friend) get stopped, while the 'isk ---> Gametime' way stays as it is.

I.e. only allow small time selling of gametimecards(no traders announcing they have only 200 cards left so get em quick).

P.S. I hope that wasnt to constructive for a sign thread Embarassed
P.P.S. Obviously that would be hard to control but it would make people feel better i guess.

The problem is that one thing leads to another. If you allow something even a little bit, it will become a serious business in no time at all.

A hard line has to be set. Its impossible to stop it being abused without stopping it altogether.

Derisor
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2005.11.25 21:43:00 - [139]
 

Signed. SOE Exchange was stupid and so is this.

Kaeljen Dae
Minmatar
Lunatic Asylum
Posted - 2005.11.25 21:59:00 - [140]
 

Huge post (pt1)

Originally by: Arshes Nei

So you say time(ingame) = isk(ingame), yet you dont want to allow trading one for the other?



I might have forgotten to add the AND there, I though it was quite clear that I meant that you gain stuff in EVE by doing both, paying for your account and then ALSO spending time, working in the game, to make money. This could be defined as "work" (which you get a product for in form of ISK or something you can trade to ISK).

The problem with GTCs is you are exchanging ingame work for an outgame object. The license to play EVE is outgame AND though it's already inverted into GTCs, you CAN trade a GTC for money again! Like you can trade most RL-objects for money), eliminating the need to pay for the game for a player, which sounds utopic, but it doesn't work: someone _IS paying_ for the time you are allowed to play, and THEY are getting an unfair advantage over others!)

In other words: This is not as direct as changing an ingame item (like a Dreadnought) for real money, but you can do it indirectly and through a grey zone. Worst of all: You can also do it the other way around, since you can sell a GTC easier and more anonymously through a grey zone, than a character/item you can convert ingame stuff (ISK) into a GTC and sell the GTC somewhere for €€ or $$. It’s just a code, and can CCP track all the transactions made with that code, or does the buyer who “innocently” traded his GTC for ISK get banned ? Laughing

What do you say about that? Greyzone 4tw…

(continues)

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.11.25 22:00:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Kaeljen Dae
Huge post (pt1)

Originally by: Arshes Nei

So you say time(ingame) = isk(ingame), yet you dont want to allow trading one for the other?



I might have forgotten to add the AND there, I though it was quite clear that I meant that you gain stuff in EVE by doing both, paying for your account and then ALSO spending time, working in the game, to make money. This could be defined as "work" (which you get a product for in form of ISK or something you can trade to ISK).

The problem with GTCs is you are exchanging ingame work for an outgame object. The license to play EVE is outgame AND though it's already inverted into GTCs, you CAN trade a GTC for money again! Like you can trade most RL-objects for money), eliminating the need to pay for the game for a player, which sounds utopic, but it doesn't work: someone _IS paying_ for the time you are allowed to play, and THEY are getting an unfair advantage over others!)

In other words: This is not as direct as changing an ingame item (like a Dreadnought) for real money, but you can do it indirectly and through a grey zone. Worst of all: You can also do it the other way around, since you can sell a GTC easier and more anonymously through a grey zone, than a character/item you can convert ingame stuff (ISK) into a GTC and sell the GTC somewhere for €€ or $$. It’s just a code, and can CCP track all the transactions made with that code, or does the buyer who “innocently” traded his GTC for ISK get banned ? Laughing

What do you say about that? Greyzone 4tw…

(continues)

I think you hit the nail on the head here.

If you buy a character for in-game cash, you cannot legally sell it for real life money.

If you rent a TS server, you can't re-rent it.

If you buy a sig for ISK, you can't really resell it.

But if you buy a gametime card, you can go right to eBay and resell that legally.

Kaeljen Dae
Minmatar
Lunatic Asylum
Posted - 2005.11.25 22:12:00 - [142]
 

(continued)

Huge post (pt2)
Also
Originally by: Arshes Nei
This is not just about people gaining isk by spending rl money, thats only half of the deal(and the controversial part i agree). This is also just as much about people gaining ingame time by spending isk.


Analogue to this about slavery:
This is not just about people dying in slavery, living a prideless life, that's only half of the deal(and controversial part I agree). This is also as much about our people's public building's being erected for free!

OPEN YOUR EYES: You can't ignore the downside, and it might ruin the game by building a hierarchy-system of characters AND players:

at the top: The VERY rich player that buys GTCs, using a few for himself, shelling out the rest in exchange for ISK, whose character can afford everything. The player doesn't need to spend much time in EVE, since he can reduce the gaming to what is fun to him, with absolutely no need to take care of gaining ISK (think about all u can buy in EVE with ISK)

in the middle: the average player that buys GTCs only for himself/pays per credit card, whose character has to work hard to achieve something in EVE, grinding missions, fighting/mining in asteroid belts, doing PROFITABLE PVP (which, depending on game mechanics given by CCP, could be easier/harder after the changes, since the "GTC-sellers" might be easy kills BUT ALSO very hard to kill due to very good equipment) etc.

at the bottom: the poor player who wants to make money with EVE, his character actually is nothing more than a slave who is continually (following a probability, since the first are profitable and not risky, securing a continuous income and the latter are risky but might be more profitable)
1) Macromining
2) Grinding missions
3) Mining in sec space = Killing NPC in sec space
4) trying their luck in 0,0
This person is not interested in the game itself, but in the money it can make with it. By reselling GTCs over E-bay at a cheaper price than at the EVE-store. She/he is not intimidated by having an account banned since they can as well open a new one under another name/scheme. Only very often banning can lower their cash flow, they do not even need to invest real money into this anymore since a starting ISK capital is all they need. There could even be rings of people lending 300m ISK to make a start for these.

Of course there are endless shades of gray between these classes. For example the person who has no money for his account, and only pays ISK to play a week.
Think about the possibilities:

Above "the middle player" -players (from now GTC-Traders), offers it, people under "the middle-player" (from now on slaves) trades it for ISK and now owns a GTC, he can decide to either resell it or invest it into his own. Depending on how many people want more money and are willing to buy a GTC for it and how many slaves are willing to match up with them is how things start to breach out from the "middle player". The "middle" (ideal player from now on) is neutral UNLESS OF COURSE he decides to buy his GTC at E-bay, cheaper than a creditcard playing license... which then is fueling the market for more reselling of GTCs, and so on.

Some maths:
I currently pay over 10€ per month for a year with a suscription, so a drop from 29,95$ (EVE store price for a 50 day GTC) to 16$ (imaginary E-bay price) would make it a better choice than a 1year subscription, assuming that 1$=1€ for easier maths.

If a 90 day GTC is worth 300m ISK ingame, which makes 3,33m ISK per day, then a 50day GTC would be worth 166m. How long do you take to make 166m macromining and/or doing legal stuff? I can make up to 30m mining per hour in deepspace (This is taking hauling, enemy alliance harassing, NPCs and hauling to empire into account…). So I’d take ~6hours to make 16$. 16/6= 2,66$, which is right over BIP of some of the poorer countries… Sounds like it could be lucrative for someTwisted Evil.

Do you need the Veldspar math?

Arshes Nei
LifeLine Solutions
Posted - 2005.11.25 22:14:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: Dark Shikari

The problem is that one thing leads to another. If you allow something even a little bit, it will become a serious business in no time at all.

A hard line has to be set. Its impossible to stop it being abused without stopping it altogether.


The irony i see is that people dont see buying gametimecards for isk as the problem at all. People seem to be miffed about buying GTCs for rl money ...

I have yet to read someone complaining about "those sick dudes who get to play without spending a single $$ !!!!". Its always about people using rl assets(money) to get isk.

To make that more clear, if i bought a GTC for isk, and resold it again for isk ... most people according to threads like this wouldnt care, cause im not getting isk by using rl money. They would only care about the initial seller of the GTC, i.e. the one that used his rl money.

We face the simple problem that one commodity is tradeble by two currencys(isk and rl money).

P.S. It would be nice to hear a statement from ccp about the selling of other eve related commodities(like stuff from the eve store) for isk. We might be in for a surprise there. Even the selling of teamspeak servers for isk, while not being tolerated in forums, is far from being a bannable offense in practise afaik(if im wrong on this it would be nice if some gm could maim me with a nerfbat for spreading false rumor ugh).

Arshes Nei
LifeLine Solutions
Posted - 2005.11.25 22:36:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: Kaeljen Dae

Originally by: Arshes Nei
This is not just about people gaining isk by spending rl money, thats only half of the deal(and the controversial part i agree). This is also just as much about people gaining ingame time by spending isk.


Analogue to this about slavery:
This is not just about people dying in slavery, living a prideless life, that's only half of the deal(and controversial part I agree). This is also as much about our people's public building's being erected for free!



Im actually answering more then the quote, so here it comes.

Actually i cant quite follow your examples as they are a bit out of the way if i may say so. First error is you assumed a fixed isk price of GTCs, the fact that this is wrong throws your calculations totally out of the window. Further i dont get the analogy of you made in the quoted part ...

My part was about someone that choose to pay for a service in rl money, yours is about forced labour and dying ... Second part of yours is about getting buildings for free, whereas mine was about people paying for something in a different currency.

People seem to think that this will lead to skyrocketing prices, which is called inflation or devalueing of money. But redistributing of isk cant lead to a inflation in itself.

P.S. The top players in this game will always be the people controlling 0.0 space. This only opens up to more trading, and in a fair trade(they cant force you to buy the cards, you only buy if you like their price) both sides do gain.

Last point is very important for me. Please stop with this GTC reselling at ebay. How is that supposed to work? Someone sends you money and you email him the code? You dont have the card physically, so you cant resell it physically either. How would you prevent scam? Whats stopping people to mail some random numbers?
Ebay can do nothing, or do you expect them to check back with ccp wether it was a valid code like the seller claimed or a invalid one as the buyer says? Sending the code back to get your money back cant be the solution either...

KHEN
New Horizons
Posted - 2005.11.25 22:59:00 - [145]
 

Edited by: KHEN on 25/11/2005 22:59:59
Edited by: KHEN on 25/11/2005 22:59:18
/NOT signed

I've just spent more than 4,5 bil in time codes. Friends and I are more than happy to play EVE for free now. I don't care about those isks buyers : they have just bought isks not a method to make big bucks, so they are not so competitive. Everybody can do big isks in EVE : just observe the markets train some skills and don't forget to be smart. Ask to Dark Shikari about this, he knows how very well (cheers Wink)

Crusher166
Emo Rangers
Electric Monkey Overlords
Posted - 2005.11.25 23:24:00 - [146]
 

/signed

Tatsue Niko
Bushido.
Posted - 2005.11.25 23:38:00 - [147]
 

Signed

Pelvic Thrust
Caldari
Sacred Templars
DeStInY.
Posted - 2005.11.25 23:49:00 - [148]
 

signed

Ras Blumin
A Cross The Universe
Posted - 2005.11.25 23:51:00 - [149]
 

Signed.

Khristopher
Legio I Mordu Cohort I
Posted - 2005.11.26 01:14:00 - [150]
 

/signed


Pages: first : previous : 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 9 ... : last (16)

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only