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Xevion
Fires Of Invention
Posted - 2005.11.13 16:22:00 - [1]
 



All of this is purely hypothetical, just to prove a point.

The EULA is a touchy subject, no? One could argue that if the software is located on MY hard drive on MY computer in MY house, and I have paid to use the software, I should have access to VIEW whatever part of the software I want, no? Modification would be against some kind of rules though, since it is still the intellectual property of CCP.

Maybe I am paranoid and think CCP is trying to install a trojan onto my computer, or that they have loaded eve with hidden malware? (Again, im not saying you have) Shouldnt I have the right to look at whatever part of the software I want as long as I dont modify any of it?

Here is an example. Lets say you come home and there is a wooden box left in the middle of your kitchen with a not on top saying "Dont open". For all you know it could be a bomb, or a new kitchenware set. Should you have the right to open it? Razz

I would appreciate any kind of ISD info and REASONING, no posts simply saying "Its just against the rules" please.

Gonada
The Scope
Posted - 2005.11.13 16:28:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Gonada on 13/11/2005 16:28:03
how bout this:

if you want to play the game you have to abide by the rules.

if you do not want to play the game go back to makup barbie, you can do whatever you want there.

/rolls eyes

Del Narveux
Dukes of Hazard
Posted - 2005.11.13 16:29:00 - [3]
 

Yes, a response and/or devblog on this would be nice, particularly given the DMR/rootkit hellstorm unleashed last week.

Xevion
Fires Of Invention
Posted - 2005.11.13 16:29:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Xevion on 13/11/2005 16:29:32
Those are the exact kind of unconstructive pointless flames that I was asking to NOT be on this forum post, Please, no flaming or trolling. (Aimed at first post)

Ly'sol
Caldari
Posted - 2005.11.13 16:31:00 - [5]
 

I think you will have more clear cut answers and less people flaming you if you contact the gm's or the mods via email.

They are usually very good about returning mails and willing to discuss any concerns you have.

Xevion
Fires Of Invention
Posted - 2005.11.13 16:34:00 - [6]
 

Yes, but if I have a conversation with the GMs via email or any other means, its considered a personal conversation and I cant post it here. The reason I wanted it here was so other people can see CCP's response to this. Very Happy

Ly'sol
Caldari
Posted - 2005.11.13 16:37:00 - [7]
 

Doesnt hurt to make the request for them to say something offical through the email. Because im pretty sure they will not answer your question through this medium. So instead of putting them on the spot in this thread. Try and do it behind closed doors, your chances will be better. Because if it is a big enough issue, they will make an annocement.

CCP Eris Discordia

Posted - 2005.11.13 16:50:00 - [8]
 

I have started poking people about this

Feral
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2005.11.13 16:50:00 - [9]
 

I suspect that CCP will have the same view about you prying into their software that, say, microsoft would about you going through windows. Intellectual copyright I think is the phrase I am looking for.

Xevion
Fires Of Invention
Posted - 2005.11.13 16:52:00 - [10]
 

Thanks eris! Very Happy

Del Narveux
Dukes of Hazard
Posted - 2005.11.13 16:55:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Feral
I suspect that CCP will have the same view about you prying into their software that, say, microsoft would about you going through windows. Intellectual copyright I think is the phrase I am looking for.


Yes, but people are starting to ask very serious questions about what we as consumers can and should allow in terms of intellectual property vs privacy. So its a good time for CCP to score some major PR points and clear this up early before the 'omgwtfbbq is there haxorz in the client' panic kicks up.

Xevion
Fires Of Invention
Posted - 2005.11.13 16:59:00 - [12]
 

Errr no, im not saying there is anything wrong with the client, that was a purely hypothetical situational statment.

Feral
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2005.11.13 17:01:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Del Narveux
Originally by: Feral
I suspect that CCP will have the same view about you prying into their software that, say, microsoft would about you going through windows. Intellectual copyright I think is the phrase I am looking for.


Yes, but people are starting to ask very serious questions about what we as consumers can and should allow in terms of intellectual property vs privacy. So its a good time for CCP to score some major PR points and clear this up early before the 'omgwtfbbq is there haxorz in the client' panic kicks up.


So you prefer to give every single person out there full access to the eve source so that some idiot can find any flaws in the code and hack the client simply because you choose not to trust the company that creates and survives off the game? Theres good reasons why source code is not published.

Xevion
Fires Of Invention
Posted - 2005.11.13 17:02:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Xevion on 13/11/2005 17:01:50
I did not say the source code, I just meant being able to view whatever part of the client install that they want. Giving out the source code would be idiotic.

Im not saying lets all disassemle eve back into assembly code, im just saying we should be able to look inside .stuff files for example, or see what registry keys eve writes.

Allen Deckard
Gallente
Roadking Hawg's
Posted - 2005.11.13 17:05:00 - [15]
 

I am not a programer so this may sound like a stupid comment but what exactly is stoping you from examining the software on your computer?

For that matter what exactly is stoping you from opening windows in a viewer and looking at the programing language? It's their intelectual property same as a video tape doesn't mean I cant view ever digital pixle of a video to see whats on the tape.

Seems as long as you don't modify, recreate, share, or use portions for anything not exactly sure how that could be prevented.

Locke DieDrake
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2005.11.13 17:07:00 - [16]
 

Not to get on the bad side of CCP here, but most Eula's are completely unenforcable.

If you want to poke around in the client files, I ask this question... how would they know?

Thats not to say you should. I haven't. Nor will I. I just don't care.

But others have, look at a certain poster sized ship chart a player put together using the in game models... CCP has not had a problem with that, and it required extracting all the in game ship models.


Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.11.13 17:46:00 - [17]
 

You are playing on CCP's server.

If you want to play on their server, you have to abide by the rules.

Its that simple. Its their server, their rules.

Megadon
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.11.13 18:00:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Xevion


All of this is purely hypothetical, just to prove a point.

The EULA is a touchy subject, no? One could argue that if the software is located on MY hard drive on MY computer in MY house, and I have paid to use the software, I should have access to VIEW whatever part of the software I want, no? Modification would be against some kind of rules though, since it is still the intellectual property of CCP.

Maybe I am paranoid and think CCP is trying to install a trojan onto my computer, or that they have loaded eve with hidden malware? (Again, im not saying you have) Shouldnt I have the right to look at whatever part of the software I want as long as I dont modify any of it?

Here is an example. Lets say you come home and there is a wooden box left in the middle of your kitchen with a not on top saying "Dont open". For all you know it could be a bomb, or a new kitchenware set. Should you have the right to open it? Razz

I would appreciate any kind of ISD info and REASONING, no posts simply saying "Its just against the rules" please.


You don't own the software. It's not yours even though it is in your possession. You bought a license to borrow it, or use it, you didn't buy the software, you bought a license.

It's like the electric meter that is on your property and is attached to your house. Just because its on your property, doesn't mean you own it and the electric company doesn't want you taking their meters apart looking at their bits. As a matter of fact, they would get very upset with you if you did this and may decide not to provide you with electricity if you did so.

Bottom line is that it is not yours, so you can't do with it whatever you want. (legally that is)


Allen Deckard
Gallente
Roadking Hawg's
Posted - 2005.11.13 18:04:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Dark Shikari
You are playing on CCP's server.

If you want to play on their server, you have to abide by the rules.

Its that simple. Its their server, their rules.


Thats fine and understandable but I believe that the point atleast "I" was trying to say it that it is quite simply an uninforcable rule.
They could also say in the eula "no thinking of blonds with big boobs" doesn't and if you want to play on our server you must obey. Thats fine but it isn't an enforcable rule as their is no way to know you did it.

I could download (a free download) to a second computer and tear the client to pieces (although I would have to learn something about programing hehe) and their would be absolutely no way ccp could know how could they?

Now can they make the rule that you cant? Sure thats their right fine with me perfectly in their rights but unless someone actually applies a change to the client and reapplies it to the game world how exactly would ccp know? That is unless they have mindreaders on staff.

Dianabolic
Reikoku
Posted - 2005.11.13 18:04:00 - [20]
 

What many of you are missing is, that in some states, "intellectual property" doesn't exist. Piracy is legal and you can do whatever the hell you like, legally, to (code) in your possesion. However, CCP are only bound international and icelandic law, and they would be fully within their rights, upon catching people doing things against the TERMS OF USE, to ban and / or prosecute that person under those laws.

They may well not apply, nor may people care, but that's about as far as it goes.

CCP Oveur

Posted - 2005.11.13 18:16:00 - [21]
 

A EULA is an agreement between us and the end user. As is quite clear, it goes beyond standard laws since it's addressing very special cases which we consider is important for EVE.

Some of it is also plain standard law in the area of intellectual property and is simply repeating what is considered part of the standard law.

However, since this is an agreement between us and the end user, the end user must comply to this agreement. If the end user doesn't, we reserve the right to either A) close down the service to the customer or B) go to court if it involves any area of law such as breach of intellectual property rights.

In the end, it's "if you want to use EVE, you have to abide to our rules" which you accept when you enter the game.

What has been a disputed regarding all EULA's (as I understand it) is special cases which are dictated within a EULA where companies have been trying to go through court on areas which are not clear cut breaches of law, but then of course they do it as civil suit where it's just a question whether the case was a breach of agreement between two parties.

Regarding your certain case, you can of course start looking into what's on your hard-drive. You can look into files as much as you want, most of it is compiled or in stuff files.

However, the minute you start extracting/using/sharing/changing our intellectual property without our prior consent, then you are moving into intellectual property rights, which governs all such property and does not have to be specifically mentioned in the EULA since it's governed by standard laws about intellectual property.

Well, in any case, this is my personal understanding of it, but I'm far from being a lawyer Laughing

I'm sure there are players which are laywers or getting to be laywers which can explain the situation more correctly (Viceroy?) and have all the precedents right - which I might not have.

I might even be wrong in it's entirety, I'm tired and it's Sunday but Eris asked me so nicely to reply that I couldn't resist Embarassed

Snake Jankins
Minmatar
German Cyberdome Corp
Cult of War
Posted - 2005.11.13 18:39:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Snake Jankins on 13/11/2005 19:20:51
Edited by: Snake Jankins on 13/11/2005 18:58:08
Edited by: Snake Jankins on 13/11/2005 18:55:45
Edited by: Snake Jankins on 13/11/2005 18:41:05
Think it's a really difficult topic. There are also national laws that come into play. (*edited* thought reverse engineering is still legal in germany, but is has been changed because of EU right and so it's illegal except to gain interoperability with other software and such).... We have also some strong laws about privacy and such and passages in contracts that are against national laws aren't worth much I think.

On the other hand, if CCP notices that you have violated the EULA, they might deny you the service = ban your accounts.
And then ? Think there was a passage that you agree to islandic law or so. So perhaps you have to go to court in Island to try to get your account unbanned again. Laughing

I've never thought that far, it's just too theoretic. Laughing

So practically I'd say:
- it's easy for them to ban your accounts, so better don't give them a reason
- it's difficult for you to force them to unban your account
- lawsuits are usually not worth the money except you cause some financial damage to CCP, then they might start one against you

*edit* I wouldn't have replied, if I had seen Oveurs post before, but now it's there. Laughing

Vult
Posted - 2005.11.13 18:39:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Oveur
However, the minute you start extracting/using/sharing/changing our intellectual property without our prior consent, then you are moving into intellectual property rights, which governs all such property and does not have to be specifically mentioned in the EULA since it's governed by standard laws about intellectual property.


So does this mean the Eve Stuff Extractor Tool is a violation of the EULA?

Malthros Zenobia
Posted - 2005.11.13 18:52:00 - [24]
 

Major EULA changes have to be made public to the gaming community. So if CCP would decide to start using a warden/roolkit kinda thing on EVE, they would have to let us know the EULA's being changed (because under the current EULA there's nothing stating they can/will use one iirc), at which point we have the heads up needed to see if we agree with the change and want to keep playing.


If they would just release it in the next patch without any warning in thw EULA, it would have serious repercussions, just like if Blizzard made 0 mention of the warden program, they'd be getting sued into bankruptcy right now.

Blazde
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2005.11.13 19:06:00 - [25]
 

The laws in most western countries give you fairly restricted rights to reverse engineer any copyrighted software. In the EU/US you can reverse to make the software compatible with some other software (let's say you need to figure out how to make your macro mining proggy work best), and in the EU you can fix bugs, but I think in both cases you have to make reasonable efforts to get the info from the copyright holder before resorting to breaking open the software yourself.

Just 'looking' at your sofware is probably allowed though (under UK law it is), so if you virus scan it for malware, that's fine, so long as you hold a license to use the software. Running it and viewing it are considered the same. As I understand it you're also allowed to monitor it's network traffic, or it's windows API calls, registry accesses etc..

I'm not a lawyer, but I think this is all civil law, so you'd have to do CCP considerable economic harm/embarrasment before it'd be worth them coming after you (and they'd have to be able to prove it too of course). So making a ship size comparison chart isn't likely to be a problem. But if you went and published the format of the model files, you might get in more trouble.

In the EU, in the cases where you are allowed to reverse, those rights can't be signed away. However EULA wise CCP are certainly within their rights to ban you for looking in their software, even if just for malware, and even if what you did was otherwised legal.

Morally, you should probably be allowed to look in the wooden box for bombs Razz But the law tends to lag behind morals quite a bit. Cos there's not much money in morals. Very Happy

Snake Jankins
Minmatar
German Cyberdome Corp
Cult of War
Posted - 2005.11.13 19:25:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Snake Jankins on 13/11/2005 19:33:12
@Blazde Thanks that you proved me wrong. I didn't know that reverse engineering is illegal now with a few exceptions like gaining interoperability with other software after trying to solve the problem with the help of the copy right holder. It has been legal for a long time in Germany, but seems it got 'pwned' by EU right. Laughing Just googled a bit to be sure. Cool

HAMTRONIX
do you
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2005.11.13 19:57:00 - [27]
 

Quote:
Im not saying lets all disassemle eve back into assembly code, im just saying we should be able to look inside .stuff files for example, or see what registry keys eve writes.


Both easily done with the proper tools. Because you don't know how doesnt mean it can't be done. Your original post referred to malware/spyware/trojan, .stuff files and the registry have little if anything to do with your concern. So I ask, if you could look at the registry, which you can using regedit, what exactly would you be looking for? Same for .stuff files?,(easily done although I will omit how)

Saeris Tal'Urduar
Amarr
Posted - 2005.11.13 20:01:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Saeris Tal''Urduar on 13/11/2005 20:03:36
If you think of it more along the lines of plagiarism it will make more sense.

-You go out and buy the book "The Princess Bride". You now own the paper, the ink and the words...or do you?
You cant put your name as the author on the book and try and resell it, even though you did buy it.
You cant be sneaky and change the name from The Dread Pirate Roberts to The Not So Evil Pirate Bob.-

Yes you own the book, thats what you purchased. But the story is still the authors its his creation and your just using it.

Eve is the same way, they give you the ability to do anything you want with it *in game*, but its their creation, you only purchased the right to use it not own it.
And thus you cant alter, modify, or use it outside or in the the game without their express permission.

Like Oveur said someone who knows the jargon could expalin it better.
For me its easier to expalin it using the plagiarism example, most of us are taught that by grade 5.


Hmm I do remember about 10 years ago someone who won a national story contest made it to the finals before they found out she/he plagerized 80% of the story.

CCP Oveur

Posted - 2005.11.13 20:09:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Vult
Originally by: Oveur
However, the minute you start extracting/using/sharing/changing our intellectual property without our prior consent, then you are moving into intellectual property rights, which governs all such property and does not have to be specifically mentioned in the EULA since it's governed by standard laws about intellectual property.


So does this mean the Eve Stuff Extractor Tool is a violation of the EULA?


Well, yes and no. Was it Napster that stole music? No. It was the guy that used Napster to steal music. Like I said, it's ok to look at it, as long as you don't cross any barrier regarding intellectual property.

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2005.11.13 20:10:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Vult
Originally by: Oveur
However, the minute you start extracting/using/sharing/changing our intellectual property without our prior consent, then you are moving into intellectual property rights, which governs all such property and does not have to be specifically mentioned in the EULA since it's governed by standard laws about intellectual property.


So does this mean the Eve Stuff Extractor Tool is a violation of the EULA?


The .stuff files are essentially archives of data files, and do not themselves comprise part of the game code. In addition, CCP have allowed people to do database dumps and post this information for a consiberable period of time.

It's not really the issue at discussion here.


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