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blankseplocked Question on RMR can flagging.
 
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Slink Grinsdikild
Brotherhood of Wolves
Astral Wolves
Posted - 2005.11.13 04:17:00 - [1]
 

Under the new system, will it be possible to..

- Steal someones ore in a throw away ship

- 'Bait' them to launch drones and agress on you

- Warp off to your safespotted Sniper BS

- Warp back, give them the F1, F2, F3, F4, F5, F6, F7, F8 salute.. pickup the stripminers and named expanders, rince and repeat?

The way I see it this change is going to see a lot of miners bringing drones along just for some extra fun, incase some ore thief forgot to read the patch notes or something. But like this example shows, it could backfire on people. . unless i'm totally wrong here. ;)

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.11.13 04:26:00 - [2]
 

Oh you can do far better.

a) Take miner's can, replace with your own (while he's out getting his indy).
b) Miner tries to pick up can. If he picks it up, you blow him to bits. If he doesn't... you get the ore.

Tekka
Caldari
Sneaky Beaver
Posted - 2005.11.13 04:49:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Dark Shikari
Oh you can do far better.

a) Take miner's can, replace with your own (while he's out getting his indy).
b) Miner tries to pick up can. If he picks it up, you blow him to bits. If he doesn't... you get the ore.


Indeed and Dark you post WAY too much Razz

Amante
Integris Industries
Posted - 2005.11.13 06:44:00 - [4]
 

It seems everyone and their dog has some method in which can flagging is going to turn into a high sec grief tactic. I like to believe the Eve devs aren't foolish enough to put it through to allow all of these things to happen, otherwise it's really not going to fix the ore thief problem.

In my brief time on the forums I've seen things like, steal with an indy ganged with a battleship, when miner flags himself shooting the indy, battleship warps in and kills him. Now this replacing cans trick, and of course "lure the Osprey into shooting the frigate, warp the frigate to safe spot with friend in Battleship, eject from frigate, board Battleship, warp back and kill".

I'm also a newbie, but I haven't seen many posts about big mistakes devs made in released content, the only major thing I've seen people complain about was missile changes, and devs now have a thread saying they're taking the player feedback and changing missiles again? It seems that Eve devs are more on-track than any other MMO I've played, and the way people talk, it's like I'm playing WoW again. The only difference is I haven't seen a "blue" post saying "working as (will be) intended", so I maintain faith that the system will not be screwed up.

hoaps surgery
Posted - 2005.11.13 06:48:00 - [5]
 

in theory, if a theif takes a can and gets flagged, then the miner can attack without being flagged

Spy4Hire
Posted - 2005.11.13 08:07:00 - [6]
 

Here's the trick to the jetcan flag... you just need 2 ships handy.

If it's a miner, okay, simple. You grab your superindy of super capacity and a single assault frig (or T1 cruiser if you desire) and warp to the belt where the miner is industriously AFK mining...

The cruier/AF wanders over and drops a can 1.5k from the miner, opens it, and proceeds to shift the ore from the miner's can to his own while the superindy wanders its way over. Now, of course, the miner can open up on the cruiser/AF without CONCORD penalty... and immediately thereafter the cruiser can return fire with extreme aggro.
Or, the miner can try to shift the ore *back* into his own can... thereby earning the un-penalized response of the cruiser. Which is, again, extreme aggro.

Either way, the miner gets screwed just as they do now, and the cruiser/AF gets an easy gank... plus the mins & loot.

Also, this can be exploited at gates in heavily populated hub systems. A close-range gankaBS drops a can a short distance from the gate (10-20km), then moves off to the other side of the gate. An unsuspecting ship warps/jumps in and sees the can... and wanders over to see what's in it... The BS then gets a free gank, and loot.

Likewise... BS shoots a few rats at the gate, then ganks the nuubs that wander in and check out the cans.

This entire can flagging can be so exploited its not funny... sorta like cruise missiles on kessies...

CCP has already coded cans so that you can't put things *INTO* a can of someone you're not ganged with or have appropriate standings to... Why the absolute F*** don't they simply reverse that to prevent items being *removed* from said can???

You really, really gotta wonder at CCP sometimes...

t0bbstar
Gallente
Posted - 2005.11.13 11:15:00 - [7]
 

I think they are gonna put a warning label as soon as you try to grab the can ex. try shooting at gate or a neutral ship u will get the same warning.

Snake Jankins
Minmatar
German Cyberdome Corp
Cult of War
Posted - 2005.11.13 11:39:00 - [8]
 

My idea once was, that you can mark the cans that belong to you as your property. (e.g. as easy as tagging via the overview works)
The only exception is the loot can of your own destroyed ship. Since you have to get away with your pod, these cans are marked automatically as yours)

Marked cans would appear different, e.g. in the overview and the new RMR criminal flagging would only apply to marked cans. Unmarked can would be the same like they are now: Free for all.

Advantage: You could decide, if you want the flagging for one of your cans or not.

If you don't care about e.g. a cruiser loot can in a mission, then simply don't mark it as your own. A newbies can take it without having to worry and everybody is happy.
If you want that flagging e.g. for an ore can or a battleship can, then mark it with a mouse click. Someone who touches it will get the warning and if he takes from it he will be criminally flagged. Fine.
Wanna shoot at ore thieves ? Mark your can with a click. Fear the grief ? Don't mark it and your can behaves exactly like the jet cans now.

Detail: Cans can only be marked while they are not accessed, so that you can't flag someone who thinks that he accesses a can that's free for all.

sonofollo
Caldari
Doomheim
Posted - 2005.11.13 11:49:00 - [9]
 

basically if its not youres dont touch it without the risk of going boom boom - sure there will be inital free ganks miners will eventually learn that if u leave a jetcan afk in high sec goto get youre industrial and someone comes along and swaps the cans (they will be marked) so simply take some drones adn attack them without touching yorue can. Whoa can theif is stuffed and u can attack if in high sec they strike back concord is all over em.

I think this is a good way to go CCP have the right implementation it will allow us to take care of MMs that use jetcans. ANd will allow some high sec griefing so to speak (that isnt a bad thing) it will give those carebears a wake up and at least push them into the PVP element a little bit - that is needed in the game and less NPC corps the players might actually join or create their own corps

Trak Cranker
Finn Inc
Posted - 2005.11.13 12:34:00 - [10]
 

Afaik the thief gets flagged to the whole corp.

So whatever ships hes doing it in will be open to ganking. But any throw away ship could easily pay itself off in one ore swap....

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.11.13 12:49:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Trak Cranker
Afaik the thief gets flagged to the whole corp.

So whatever ships hes doing it in will be open to ganking. But any throw away ship could easily pay itself off in one ore swap....

This will be extra effective against noob corp miners/farmers/macro miners, as I assume you won't be flagged to all of a noob corp.

Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2005.11.13 13:14:00 - [12]
 

The questions.

1. Take miner's can, replace with your own (while he's out getting his indy).

2. Miner tries to pick up can. If he picks it up, you blow him to bits. If he doesn't... you get the ore.

3. Steal someones ore in a throw away ship

4. 'Bait' them to launch drones and agress on you

5. Warp off to your safespotted Sniper BS

6. Warp back, give them the F1, F2, F3, F4, F5, F6, F7, F8 salute.. pickup the stripminers and named expanders, rince and repeat?

The answers, as far as I understand.
1. Yes. But you will get flagged to him.
2. You are flagged to him already.
3. Yes.
4. Yes, although... bait? You're flagged so he can kill you without the donut-eaters caring.
5. Yes. You're flagged to the miner, the miner isn't flagged to the sniper. In 0.4 or lower this is valid, though.
6. Yes, in 0.4 or lower. Which is something you can do already.

Flagging is a one-way interaction. You get flagged to someone - you are fair game for that someone. That someone doesn't become fair game for you.

St Dragon
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.11.13 14:45:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Dark Shikari
Oh you can do far better.

a) Take miner's can, replace with your own (while he's out getting his indy).
b) Miner tries to pick up can. If he picks it up, you blow him to bits. If he doesn't... you get the ore.


This wont work with me, based on this my procedure will be....

1. I see a suspicious ship
2. I fly away as if to get a hauler
3. you replace the can.
4. i return in my gank setup battleship and kill your flagged hauler or whatever you are in.
5. i then return with my hauler scoop your loot can and my ore from your can.
6. sit in station till timer runs out.

Del Narveux
Dukes of Hazard
Posted - 2005.11.13 14:55:00 - [14]
 

I kind of like snake's idea of making it optional. Yes a simple but optional can flaggin system would still open you up to get griefed in high-sec, but stealing ore under the current rules is griefing too so all it would do is change the specifics (except now both sides have a chance to be lame).

Gretek Lal
Minmatar
Fractal Holdings Ltd.
Posted - 2005.11.13 15:02:00 - [15]
 

All of this seems like a HUGE amount of trouble to go through just to steal someone's ore or prevent one's ore from being stolen.

St Dragon
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.11.13 15:06:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Gretek Lal
All of this seems like a HUGE amount of trouble to go through just to steal someone's ore or prevent one's ore from being stolen.


I largly agree.

FROM THE MINERS POINT OF VIEW THO THIS IS A LONG NEEDED ADDITION.

FROM THE GRIEFERS POPINT OF VIEW WELL THEY ARE JUST SAD.Rolling EyesLaughing

Damn left the caps onEmbarassed

HippoKing
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2005.11.13 15:11:00 - [17]
 

if you think this will decrease griefing, your wrong

i welcome it as a mission runner, but for miners, it will just be griefbait

St Dragon
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.11.13 15:15:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: HippoKing
if you think this will decrease griefing, your wrong

i welcome it as a mission runner, but for miners, it will just be griefbait


you are quite right iw wont stop griefing but it will at least give miners more options than sit there and watch there cans get emptied

Tobiaz
Spacerats
Posted - 2005.11.13 15:22:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Gretek Lal
All of this seems like a HUGE amount of trouble to go through just to steal someone's ore or prevent one's ore from being stolen.


At are also the mission runners and NPC farmers that are complaining. And it's not only ore that gets stolen, but also Ice.

If an orethief swaps the miner's can with his own, he will be flagged. But if the miner then takes his ore back will he be flagged as well, or since he took it from a can of a person already flagged to him, it doesn't matter?

Gonada
The Scope
Posted - 2005.11.13 15:27:00 - [20]
 

and remeber that the owner of the can, if he does not attack the theif, the theif cant attack back.

Malthros Zenobia
Posted - 2005.11.13 19:02:00 - [21]
 

I think it'd be best if the thief couldn't fire back, simply because it'll prevent the upcoming wave of newbie killing e're going to have if they can.

Braaage
Ministry of Craft
Posted - 2005.11.13 19:35:00 - [22]
 

As it stands at the moment the worse thing that can happen is:

Thief steals ore
Miner shoots and pods theif
Thief docks and changes into BS
Thief comes back to belt and pwns miner with no flagging.

Two ways to stop this from happening

1) Thief cannot change ships whilst flagged
2) Make the agress in one direction - IE miner shoots thief but thief cannot shoot back.

That unfortunately is the biggest "grief" problem with the can flagging.

This replacing the can wont work if the miner has any whits about him cos when he returns to what he thinks is his own can he will will be promted with a warning message stating it isn't.

MWEI
Posted - 2005.11.13 20:42:00 - [23]
 

Quote:
2) Make the agress in one direction - IE miner shoots thief but thief cannot shoot back.


I believe thats already the case, its so obvious CCP can even see it, otherwise you would have gankers stealing ore with his pvp ship and the poor osprey cant do anything about it.

Aria Stardancer
Caldari
Doomheim
Posted - 2005.11.13 20:42:00 - [24]
 

im pretty sure the way they are going to solve this is simple. The one stealing the ore is flaged, the one "defending" their ore is NOT flagged, even when they open fire.

so... you swipe ore, your turned kill-on-sight to the player, (and dont forget GANG members also) But those people Defending their can are NOT flaged, even when they open up on you... so.. that will eliminate the Batleships waiting to warp in plan you all seem to have.

Basicaly make it a 1 way fight. Thief gets shot at, but cant shoot back. withough Concord jumping him. or any 'partnet' to the thief cant fire on the 'defender' withough concord jumping them as well.

Spy4Hire
Posted - 2005.11.13 23:47:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: sonofollo
get youre industrial and someone comes along and swaps the cans (they will be marked) so simply take some drones adn attack them without touching yorue can. Whoa can theif is stuffed and u can attack if in high sec they strike back concord is all over em.


Incorrect. If he accesses your can and you fire on him, CONCORD will not aggro you... BUT the person you just shot is free to return fire also without CONCORD response because you fired on him.

PrankMaster
Posted - 2005.11.14 00:21:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Spy4Hire
Incorrect. If he accesses your can and you fire on him, CONCORD will not aggro you... BUT the person you just shot is free to return fire also without CONCORD response because you fired on him.



If someone steals your ore and gets flagged to you, this 'return fire' rule should not hold, else it would be very silly to implement this in the first place. Like stated above you should not be able to come in your uber wtfpwn BS, and just take out the miner without punishment when he shoots at you while you are flagged to him. Then you can still scoop ore from cans without any risk.

Even if you may not return fire after stealing ore, you can just tank the **** out of your ship and eat the fire of the miner while doing your business... but I guess group mining is a solution to that.

M3ta7h3ad
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2005.11.14 00:32:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: MWEI
Quote:
2) Make the agress in one direction - IE miner shoots thief but thief cannot shoot back.


I believe thats already the case, its so obvious CCP can even see it, otherwise you would have gankers stealing ore with his pvp ship and the poor osprey cant do anything about it.


That would be silly if it was. If you want to see can flagging working go onto SISI, as I believe its running there already.

Why would it be silly? Well.. it would mean you cant steal ore ever again. Ore theifs will become non-existant. Considering CCP considers ore theivery part of the game, and they have stated that they will not remove it. It is highly unlikely that they will make it so you cannot shoot back without being concorded.

Steal ore. miner shoots you.. your shoot back, instadeath.
steal ore. miner shoots you.. you shoot back, kill miner, collect loot, wait for aggro timer to expire. Dock, and hide for the 15mins you are flagged to everyone that miner knows.

Would be rather interesting, I wonder how flagging works with regards to the NPC corps. Newbies suddenly going around in ibis fleets :D Pwning ore thieves :D as soon as a newbie gets ore stolen from his can, the thief is flagged to everyone in that NPC corp. Which.. if your in a newbie system will be quite a lot of people :D

First one with a fraps of a fleet of ibis/assorted newbie ships pwning an apoc wins a cuddly toy! :D

BoinKlasik
Senkei Jin
Posted - 2005.11.14 01:38:00 - [28]
 

first one to show a fraps vid of about 500 noobs all hitting "approach" and trying to hit anything at point blank range gets a cuddly toy as well. Also, I want to see that apoc fitted with a few smartbombs...

Tennotsukai
Minmatar
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
Posted - 2005.11.14 02:40:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Slink Grinsdikild
Under the new system, will it be possible to..

- Steal someones ore in a throw away ship

- 'Bait' them to launch drones and agress on you

- Warp off to your safespotted Sniper BS

- Warp back, give them the F1, F2, F3, F4, F5, F6, F7, F8 salute.. pickup the stripminers and named expanders, rince and repeat?

The way I see it this change is going to see a lot of miners bringing drones along just for some extra fun, incase some ore thief forgot to read the patch notes or something. But like this example shows, it could backfire on people. . unless i'm totally wrong here. ;)



Yet, I get the feeling that a number of empire mining corps will start having anti-theif groups in the forms of BSs', HACs or Frigs who's whole aim in life is to kill any ore theif.

The idea behind it, is good in as much as being an ore theif is no longer a risk free job.. Now miners won't have a reason to moan about people stealing their ore.. they will now have a chance to settle the score if they so choose.

But something else that got my mind ticking over... would this also extend to cans drop from war targets? After all there is nothing more annoying then having a good scrap only to watch every scavenger from several systems around heading for those hard won cans.

Aria Stardancer
Caldari
Doomheim
Posted - 2005.11.14 04:12:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Aria Stardancer on 14/11/2005 04:33:15
Originally by: M3ta7h3ad
Originally by: MWEI
Quote:
2) Make the agress in one direction - IE miner shoots thief but thief cannot shoot back.


I believe thats already the case, its so obvious CCP can even see it, otherwise you would have gankers stealing ore with his pvp ship and the poor osprey cant do anything about it.


That would be silly if it was. If you want to see can flagging working go onto SISI, as I believe its running there already.

Why would it be silly? Well.. it would mean you cant steal ore ever again. Ore theifs will become non-existant.



Actualy.. it would NOT be silly... as allowing the oen being stolen from to fire back on the 'theif' withough risk of Concord attackign them. But NOT allowing the 'theif' to fire back withough risking Concord would effectifly stop all Ore theiveing in EMPIRE SPACE. it would NOT stop ore thieving in 0.4 or below space though. Seeing as tehre is no concorc out there. (but the one defending his ore would not take a security hit for shooting at the theif)

This change is not beign put into effect for everyones benifit, only those that live in Empire space and dotn want to risk liveing in 0.4 or lower.


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