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chillx
Minmatar
Intergalactic Combined Technologies
Posted - 2005.11.02 14:52:00 - [1]
 

Specialisation is killing Minmatars.

As things stand today each race can get away with 2/3 specialisation to make their race of ships 'good'.

Amarr - Armour tank / Lasers (Drones or missiles)
Gallente - Armour tank / Drones / Hybrids
Caldari - Sheild tank / Missiles / (EW / Blasters)

To effectively use the Minmatar fleet you need to have

Minmatar - Shield & Armour tank / Projectiles / Drones / Missiles.

This situation is only getting worse the more specialisations that are introduced. I've been playing for over a year now but as soon as I get the next new set of specialisation skills done another set that are relevant to my ships are released.

Oh look, new drone skills!

Why would anyone choose Minmatar, which requires approximately twice the number of skills to make our ships effective compared to other races?

Yes, this is a bit of a rant. No I don't have an answer short of totally redesigning the Minmatar fleet. Sure I'll take your Waaammmbulance.

Anyone else have an opinion on this or any brilliant ideas as to how Minmatars can be made more attractive to the new players.

Aaron Kyoto
Minmatar
Posted - 2005.11.02 15:06:00 - [2]
 

because we are strong! we survived slavery and we'll surivive bieng constant underdogs! Wink

Mallikanth
Posted - 2005.11.02 15:10:00 - [3]
 

We WILL overcome Twisted Evil

Hell I love my character <cough> not literally you understand Shocked and have complete confidence in his ability to learn yet more skills and be far more adaptable than any Amarr scum (Unless his hsip is biggerthan mine and....) ugh

Masu'di
Es and Whizz
Hedonistic Imperative
Posted - 2005.11.02 16:01:00 - [4]
 

and we get small energy turret skill at character creation ugh

i don't know what the solution is, if you do stick with Minmatar and try and specialise in them (specialisation and minmatar is an oxymoron) then i think they are one of the best.

Empyre
Chaotic Balance
Posted - 2005.11.02 18:35:00 - [5]
 

..which is precisely why, after reaching destroyers, I switched over to Caldari ships..

Eisheth Zenunim
The Maverick Navy
IT Alliance
Posted - 2005.11.02 19:21:00 - [6]
 

Complaining 4tw Evil or Very Mad

Munin Crow
Posted - 2005.11.02 19:35:00 - [7]
 

I'm glad I read this post before I continued playing my minimatar character. :(

Its to bad. I really liked the minimatar story... and thought that the cyclone looked pretty cool.

Eisheth Zenunim
The Maverick Navy
IT Alliance
Posted - 2005.11.02 19:39:00 - [8]
 

People just like complaining to much. Atm all i'm doing is learning skills, and i've seen some people flying around in minmatar ships, and got a chance to play with a friends account who has a minmatar character. Awesome stuff!

Tribunal
FIRMA
Posted - 2005.11.02 19:48:00 - [9]
 

Why would you switch to another character just because of that? It's not like you get a bonus to learn your race's ships.

Lor'ath Tylar
Minmatar
The All-Seeing Eye
G00DFELLAS
Posted - 2005.11.02 20:40:00 - [10]
 

Who cares when u got 14 perception 11 willpower to start with Twisted Evil

Blind Man
Caldari
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2005.11.02 20:49:00 - [11]
 

i started caldari and went mimitar..they are uber for teh pvp Cool

Aaron Kyoto
Minmatar
Posted - 2005.11.02 21:25:00 - [12]
 

theres nothing wrong with having a minmatar character, their just more flexible than other 'specialising' races. (ie all others :P )

Munin Crow
Posted - 2005.11.02 22:54:00 - [13]
 

Im not actually droping my minimatar character. I am just a little anoyed that other races ships seem to be "better"... Grr!

Ralitge boyter
Minmatar
Posted - 2005.11.03 09:42:00 - [14]
 

Minmatar ships are a pile of rubish anyway read the back story. They have sc****d together the designs from stealing bits and pices from the other races. Laughing

I fly mainly Caldari but that is mostly because I like the Scorpion and the Ferox, Cyclones are cool though and the minmatar shutle is the best looking in game in my opinion.

Whats wrong with having to specialize in may trades it means you can build a lot more creative ship setups and will have it far easier to train for an other reces ships as you will already have part of their specializations trained if not all of them.

Minmatar will rule the Universe one day... for now we just sit back relax and stick some more rubish, and fertilizer in our ships. Laughing

Pagefault
Evoke.
Ev0ke
Posted - 2005.11.03 10:42:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Munin Crow
... other races ships seem to be "better"... Grr!


I face an amarr: ok, em&therm harderners strapped on, or just an armor tank and the hardeners are free...
I face a caladri: rofl... got some scramblers as well... damage? what damage?
I face a gallente: i will keep out of blaster distance, and snipe him to death before he even got all his bugged drones under control.
I face a minmatar: ok, i will prepare for drones, missiles, single-volley-killing guns, see his backlights every time he overtakes me, tank all damagetypes,even explosive which no1 else does, and i'll forget about the nos, he'll just keep on fireing with empty cap.

... conclusion: stop that minmatar whining. they are different, but not "worse". if u don't like that "i can do whatever i like, if i ever get the skill" philosophy just fly another race. A minmatar is likly to do less raw damage then other races, but he's very likly prepared for every situation he might eventually face.

POSITRON
Mythos Corp
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2005.11.03 12:04:00 - [16]
 

we r the coolest race Cool
with the most beatiful story
and a promising future Wink

oh yes, ... and most of our ships r sexy *****es yeahhhh ugh

chillx
Minmatar
Intergalactic Combined Technologies
Posted - 2005.11.03 13:34:00 - [17]
 

I wasn't really saying Minmatar are rubbish. I've got over 23M skill points so can use all of my ships effectivly. And yes moving to another race's ships is much easier now that I have all those skills.

Butů

The thrust of my thread what that when new players are first looking at which race they want to be. They'll see the massive amounts of training needed to bring the Minmatar fleet up to a comparable level with other races, who can achieve this level in a much shorter time, will choose another race.

This will lead to the Minmatar population getting smaller and smaller. As more specialisations are added the disparity in required skills gets bigger and so exaggerates the problem.

theRaptor
Caldari
Tactical Operations
Posted - 2005.11.03 14:23:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Pagefault
I face a minmatar: ok, i will prepare for drones, missiles, single-volley-killing guns, see his backlights every time he overtakes me, tank all damagetypes,even explosive which no1 else does, and i'll forget about the nos, he'll just keep on fireing with empty cap.


Yup. Explosive drones and missiles don't work for other races. Rolling Eyes

(This message bought to you by a Caldari who flies Gallente ships, and uses rails and explosive drones)

Jonas Umbator
Beyond Divinity Inc
Privateer Alliance
Posted - 2005.11.03 16:19:00 - [19]
 

Well cool. I just started playing less than a month ago (with no end in sight) and was starting to learn about the different races. I picked Minmatars due to the story not knowing anything about any of the races. But it seems like due to their flexibility they make great new player characters. I am learning pretty much all skills across the board and trying out everything just so I can become more familiar with the game, which seems like something most new players would want to do. I would have been disappointed to find out that my race was only good/best in a few things. So by your own argument they are attractive to new players. But hey what do I know, i'm just a newb.

Macon Squaredealer
Squaredeal Enterprises
Posted - 2005.11.03 17:28:00 - [20]
 

Not to mention that we are just plain dead sexy also.

Lord Morkoth
EdgeGamers
Drop the Hammer
Posted - 2005.11.03 18:42:00 - [21]
 

well minmatar 4tw on this part:






GANK LOWS

SHIELD TANK MEDS

TECH 2 GUNS is really great

(machariel also pwns)

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2005.11.03 18:47:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: theRaptor
Originally by: Pagefault
I face a minmatar: ok, i will prepare for drones, missiles, single-volley-killing guns, see his backlights every time he overtakes me, tank all damagetypes,even explosive which no1 else does, and i'll forget about the nos, he'll just keep on fireing with empty cap.


Yup. Explosive drones and missiles don't work for other races. Rolling Eyes

(This message bought to you by a Caldari who flies Gallente ships, and uses rails and explosive drones)


10 T2 beserkers < T2 1400mm gankpest with fusion shells


...and you can field 6 T2 beserkers with the tempest btw.

Kalixa Hihro
Posted - 2005.11.04 15:32:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Eisheth Zenunim
Complaining 4tw Evil or Very Mad

ditto

Kalixa Hihro
Posted - 2005.11.04 15:36:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Pagefault
Originally by: Munin Crow
... other races ships seem to be "better"... Grr!


I face an amarr: ok, em&therm harderners strapped on, or just an armor tank and the hardeners are free...
I face a caladri: rofl... got some scramblers as well... damage? what damage?
I face a gallente: i will keep out of blaster distance, and snipe him to death before he even got all his bugged drones under control.
I face a minmatar: ok, i will prepare for drones, missiles, single-volley-killing guns, see his backlights every time he overtakes me, tank all damagetypes,even explosive which no1 else does, and i'll forget about the nos, he'll just keep on fireing with empty cap.

... conclusion: stop that minmatar whining. they are different, but not "worse". if u don't like that "i can do whatever i like, if i ever get the skill" philosophy just fly another race. A minmatar is likly to do less raw damage then other races, but he's very likly prepared for every situation he might eventually face.


Yep, it's a typical "I don't know how to play my character right so I'll just go complain to the devs and get something nerfed so the game fits my playing style" attitude.

Nauseating. I'd post my whole opinion on people like this, but I'd get banned for it. I will say that people like this end up ruining games with their complaining and resulting changes the devs make.

Kalixa Hihro
Posted - 2005.11.04 15:37:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Kalixa Hihro on 04/11/2005 16:10:53

chillz
Minmatar
Posted - 2005.11.04 16:48:00 - [26]
 

Sigh,

This thread was supposed to be about how the increase in specialisations is making Minmatar less attractive as a race to new players.




Reading skills ftw.

chillx
Minmatar
Intergalactic Combined Technologies
Posted - 2005.11.04 16:49:00 - [27]
 

Posting with your alt ftw also Smile

Shavi Aldraka
Posted - 2005.11.04 19:55:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: chillx
thrust of my thread what that when new players are first looking at which race they want to be. They'll see the massive amounts of training needed to bring the Minmatar fleet up to a comparable level with other races, who can achieve this level in a much shorter time, will choose another race.



New players don't choose a race based on long-term training time. Hell, new players don't even understand the training system.

As a new player who chose Minmatar, the only time I feel it was a bad choice is when I see these self-deprecating threads.

-C

Adrian Steel
Doomheim
Posted - 2005.11.04 20:42:00 - [29]
 

I definately agree with what chillx has discussed concerning specialization and Minmatars.

The Concept of Specialization:

I think most people will agree that specializing one's character is much better than having an "all rounded" one. By being all rounded, you don't excel at anything in particular, and you're just another run of the mill pilot. These pilots have nothing in particular to feel good about, except for the fact that they're playing the game. A specialist, on the other hand, excels in a particular field where most do not, and is consequently in high demand by his peers for help in that domain. He also commands alot of recognition from others - because he's "special". He can feel good about himself for excelling in something. I would argue that being a specialist is emotionally gratifying for the player. Most of us play games for an emotionally gratifying experience. That's what entertainment is all about.

Specialization and Race:

Displayed below is an opinionated list that shows the length of time required to benefit maximally from the ships of your race, from shortest time to longest time. The more primary skills required to "get good" as chillx would say, naturally, the longer the time required.

1) Amarr - Primary: Mechanic and laser/gunnery. Secondary: Drones. Distant Tertiary: Missiles.
2) Gallente - Primary: Mechanic, hybrid/gunnery and drones. Secondary: propulsion skills.
3) Caldari - Primary: Engineering, missiles, hybrids, electronics. Secondary: ECM target jamming.
4) Minmatar - Primary: Engineering, Mechanic, projectile/gunnery, missiles, drones. Secondary: electronics , propulsion skills.

The same information displayed differently:

1) Amarr - Primary skills required: 2.
2) Gallente - Primary skills required: 3.
3) Caldari - Primary skills required: 4.
4) Minmatar - Primary skills required: 5.

To truly command one's ship as a Minmatar, it requires excellent mastery of 5 skills. In contrast, it requires the mastery of 2 skills to be an adept Amarrian pilot.

I am a Caldari character that flies Caldari ships and I can understand chillx's qualm as I find myself in a similar position.

To strengthen my/chillx's argument:

Caldari ships, like Minmatar ships, (on average!) require a balance of two weapon types on the high slots to rival the damage output of Amarrian or Gallentean ships which can only take one weapon type. This in itself requires 2x as much training as Amarrian / Gallentean ships. Here's a list to better explain:

Amarr - Primary: Lasers
Gallente - Primary: Hybrids
Caldari - Primary: Missiles, Secondary: Hybrids
Minmatar - Primary: Projectiles, Secondary: Missiles

Possible Solution to Discuss:

Implementing a method of swapping skills. Suppose, for example, you have done extensive training for both laser and projectile skills as a Minmatar early in your character's life. You have only trained Minmatar ships. You have come to the realization, later on, that to be really effective with Minmatar ships, you need projectile and missile skills - not projectile and laser skills. CCP could implement a system whereby this character could swap his laser skills for missile skills - of course - with the equivalent skill number of skill points, so as to prevent "leverage" of skills.

This can be incorporated into the story line. The recent mad scientists in Eve news concocting a mind altering device.... could this be what they're planning? Only time will tell...

This system could be available as an inherent part of the game (like the system scanner is part of every single ship), or it could be a payed service within the game - like ship/module repairs at stations.

With this method, people unhappy with the miscellaneous skills they have acquired over time (because they wanted to try different things out) could swap them for others to enable them to specialize. This in turn will give Eve gamers a greater self worth, and they will want to play the game even more.


 

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