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Spartan III
Xzile-EVE-Corp
Posted - 2005.10.25 03:26:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Spartan III on 25/10/2005 13:24:28
First off I know there are a few posts explaining the current stacking penalty (which is ganna get changed after the next patch) such as Stacking Penalty Explained and Stacking Penalty explained (less complex but with pics), but afaik neither of them explain how to calculate shield or armour resistance when the shield/armour resist is above 0%.

So I spent some time today and figured it out for myself and decided to post it on here because the question was asked.

Please bear with me here, this is as simple as I could get it in a short amount of time so EVERYONE can understand it(I am just in 9th grade math so I had to do a lot of research to understand this but if I can then most should).

(note, to understand the first formula I used then go to one of the links I posted)

If your Base resistance for a specific damage type is 40%, with 2 55% hardeners the resist is calculated like this (note, the ^ sign means to the power of): (.45*.45)^((1/2)^0.25) = .261 you then subtract that number from 1.0 (1-.261=.739) and get .739 . You then multiply that by the unresisted part of your shield (60% because of your 40% base resist) so .739*60=44.34%. That number (44.34%) is the combined amount of resistance your hardeners are giving so add that to your base resistance of 40% and you get a resist of 40%+44.34% = 84.34% total resist with 2 55% hardeners.

If I did anything wrong or you have any questions please post Very Happy.

P.S Thanks to facelifter to make this Possible

Brad Stone
Caldari
Posted - 2005.10.25 11:47:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Spartan III


Please bare with me here


Actually, I'd rather not, I only do that with my wife... Wink But I did bear with you and it's a useful explanation. I'm fairly new and trying to get to grips with how all this damage thing works. Eve is such a complex game!

Testy Mctest
Posted - 2005.10.25 11:53:00 - [3]
 

Actually, 'bare with me' is the correct usage of the language.

'Bear with me' would imply that you would like some sort of intimate large mammal contact...which I think we'll all agree, is off topic.

Indigo Callypso
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2005.10.25 12:02:00 - [4]
 

Hmm...actually, I think bear with me is correct. Bear referring to bear the load, bear the weight. Bare is only, I believe, used in reference to shedding...i.e. of clothes, hair, responsibility etc.

Sorry off topic. :)

Spartan III
Xzile-EVE-Corp
Posted - 2005.10.25 13:27:00 - [5]
 

I was wrong indeed, it is "bear" according to Webster's dictionary online.

4 a : to exert influence or force b : APPLY, PERTAIN
- bear a hand : to join in and help out
- bear arms 1 : to carry or possess arms 2 : to serve as a soldier
- bear fruit : to come to satisfying fruition, production, or development
- bear in mind : to think of especially as a warning : REMEMBER
- bear with : to be indulgent, patient, or forbearing with

Now if you guys could post some more on topic questions/comments that would be great!Razz

vecdran
22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit
Posted - 2005.10.25 14:13:00 - [6]
 

I just go the lazy mans way out and just do the percentage of the percentage :o

Isn't exact, but it gets the figure rougly.

Brad Stone
Caldari
Posted - 2005.10.25 14:39:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Brad Stone on 25/10/2005 14:40:18
"Actually, 'bare with me' is the correct usage of the language"

Nope, you'd be wrong there testy... Check any dictionary (spartan listed the correct meaning ^^^)

That's enough of that though...

Anyway I was coming back to ask if there's a good explanation of how the damage system actually works.. I know there's all different damage types and damage resistances... let's take an example, if I fire an explosive missile at something that has shields at max how do u use all the stats to work out what damage you will actually do to shields? I can kind of understand that an emp missile will do the most damage to sheilds - but I'm a bit confused how the numbers work...

Anyone got a good explanation available?

Stephen HB
Mystical Knights
Malum Exuro
Posted - 2005.10.25 15:36:00 - [8]
 

In any set of resistances, be it armour or shield, the %resistance is the % of damage of that type that is ignored. E.g. 80%EXP means you take only 20% of any EXP damage inflicted.

Assume the shield has resistances of 0%EM,80%EXP,30%KIN,40%THERM.

If you fire a volley of missiles, one of each type, assume each one does 200 of its damage type. The EM will hit for 200*(1-0)=200, the EXP for 200*(1-0.8)=40, the KIN for 200*(1-0.3)=140 and the THERM for 200*(1-0.4)=120. So your total damage would be 200+40+140+120=500 damage, out of a possible 800. So the average resist in this situation is 3/8, or 62.5%.

In general, shields have low EM resistance and armour has weak EXP resistance, with KIN and THERM in between. The major exceptions to this are AF/HAC, where Amarr have high EXP/KIN resists, and Minmatar have high EM/THERM. So T2 Amarr ships plug a major armour hole, and Minnie plug a shield hole. This tends to make them easier to harden against many damage types, as the resistance bonuses lower the # of hardeners you need to use.

Spartan III
Xzile-EVE-Corp
Posted - 2005.10.25 19:18:00 - [9]
 

PM me ingame and I will explain how damage is really calculated in more detail, taking the explosion radius of the missile and the signature radius of the enemy ship into account as well as the resist.

Brad Stone
Caldari
Posted - 2005.10.25 19:54:00 - [10]
 

Thanks Stephen, that makes sense, but can u explain other stats for damage... for example, a Flameburst light missile stats are

75 HP Thermal damage
60.0 Base Shield damage
48.75 Base Armour damage

So what does that mean? Assuming no thermal resistance, will it do 75+60 on the shields and 75+48.75 to armour once the shields are gone? what about hull damage?

I understand that if there is thermal resistance then that will absorb some of the 75 HP but I'm confused about the base damage stats..

help!

Tried to msg u in game spartan but u weren't on at the time but I'd sure like to chat so I can understand this


Caldorous
Gallente
Posted - 2005.10.25 20:55:00 - [11]
 

The base damage to both shield and armor uses the standard dmg resistance and calculates that damage to shorten your calculations.

Brad Stone
Caldari
Posted - 2005.10.26 10:25:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Caldorous
The base damage to both shield and armor uses the standard dmg resistance and calculates that damage to shorten your calculations.


Um that doesn't help. Lets say I'm hitting something with sheild HP of 1000 with no thermal resistance.

Missile has 75HP thermal damge
60.0 base shield
48.75 base armour

How much damage will I do to the shield?

Now if there's no sheild, and again, no thermal resistance to armour (speaking hypothetically here!), How much damage do I do to te armour?

Then what about the hull?

Trelennen
Disturbed Hoggs
Posted - 2005.10.26 11:20:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Brad Stone
Originally by: Caldorous
The base damage to both shield and armor uses the standard dmg resistance and calculates that damage to shorten your calculations.


Um that doesn't help. Lets say I'm hitting something with sheild HP of 1000 with no thermal resistance.

Missile has 75HP thermal damge
60.0 base shield
48.75 base armour

How much damage will I do to the shield?

Now if there's no sheild, and again, no thermal resistance to armour (speaking hypothetically here!), How much damage do I do to te armour?

Then what about the hull?


If there's no resists involved, your missile will do 75 damage (well not counting for modifications from sig radius of the target though :p).

But your thermal missile, against a standard T1 ship with base resists will do 60 damage to shield, and when it'll come to armor, will do 48.75 (20% base thermal resist on shields, the 48.75 on armor is strange, as base thermal armor resist is 40%, so it should be 45, but maybe it factors an average thermal resist over all unhardened T1 ships, as I think there is some T1 ships with different thermal armor resist - not sure).

Hull has no resistance and can't be hardened (well, for the moment, as with next patch, damage controls should add resistance to hull) so you will always do 75 damage.

Phlaago Rexor
Minmatar
Swedish Aerospace Inc
Southern Cross Alliance
Posted - 2005.10.26 11:27:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Phlaago Rexor on 26/10/2005 11:28:22
Edited by: Phlaago Rexor on 26/10/2005 11:27:44
Originally by: Brad Stone
Originally by: Caldorous
The base damage to both shield and armor uses the standard dmg resistance and calculates that damage to shorten your calculations.


Um that doesn't help. Lets say I'm hitting something with sheild HP of 1000 with no thermal resistance.

Missile has 75HP thermal damge
60.0 base shield
48.75 base armour

How much damage will I do to the shield?

Now if there's no sheild, and again, no thermal resistance to armour (speaking hypothetically here!), How much damage do I do to te armour?

Then what about the hull?


lets assume the target is slow and big, at least slower than the explosion velocity and bigger than the explosion radius.

Now if your target has 0% resist you do the full 75hp damage
Edit: the hull has 0% resistances.

the "60.0 base shield damage" is what you would do against a standard 20% thermal resistance shield.
shields are 0% em,60% explosive, 40% kinetic, 20% thermal as standard.
armor is 60% em, 10% explosive, 25% kinetic, 35% thermal as standard
but each race has 10% extra armor resist to one of the damagetypes (em for minmatar, explosive for amarr, kinetic for gallente & thermal for caldari)

Brad Stone
Caldari
Posted - 2005.10.26 11:35:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Brad Stone on 26/10/2005 11:39:15
Edited by: Brad Stone on 26/10/2005 11:38:44
Originally by: Trelennen


But your thermal missile, against a standard T1 ship with base resists will do 60 damage to shield, and when it'll come to armor, will do 48.75 (20% base thermal resist on shields, the 48.75 on armor is strange, as base thermal armor resist is 40%, so it should be 45, but maybe it factors an average thermal resist over all unhardened T1 ships, as I think there is some T1 ships with different thermal armor resist - not sure).




Ahhhh... so all T1 ships have the same basic resistances (before hardners/skills are applied) I did not know that. I had assumed that at least different races ships would have different resists.

Eve Geek missile calc tool shows thermal resists at 20% for shields, 35% arnour so for shields we have 75 x (1-0.2) = 60 HP and for armour we have 75 * (1-0.35) = 48.75 which matches the stats on the info screen.

So using thermal armour resist of 35% not 40% as you suggest gives the right numbers.

Ding!!! the lightbulb goes on,

THANKYOU!!!!!!

One more q.. Whats the formulas for deciding the split of shield/armour damage and armour/hull damage? I notice that when shilds are down to a certain point (20% maybe) you start damaging armour and shields together so I want to understand how that works...



Spartan III
Xzile-EVE-Corp
Posted - 2005.10.28 03:12:00 - [16]
 

bump

Farjung
Gallente
TAOSP
Posted - 2005.10.28 03:40:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Brad Stone

Ahhhh... so all T1 ships have the same basic resistances (before hardners/skills are applied) I did not know that. I had assumed that at least different races ships would have different resists.


You assumed correctly to some extent. There is a bit of racial variation on armor resists, with each race getting a 10% boost to one resist based on racial lines - e.g. Amarr t1 has 20% explosive instead of 10%, Minmatar has 70% em instead of 60%, Gallente has 35% kinetic instead of 25%, Caldari has 45% thermal instead of 35%.

symbi0te
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2005.11.08 16:53:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Testy Mctest
Actually, 'bare with me' is the correct usage of the language.

'Bear with me' would imply that you would like some sort of intimate large mammal contact...which I think we'll all agree, is off topic.


OMG this made me laugh LOLLaughingLaughingLaughing

Thanatos69
Posted - 2005.12.26 17:19:00 - [19]
 

plz explain me this:
base em resist 0&
using 2x named Em hardener each 50%
so my new base resist is 1,86.....%
when both hardener are aktivatet i have a total em resist of 71,72799952%.

Spartan III
Xzile-EVE-Corp
Posted - 2005.12.26 17:22:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Thanatos69
plz explain me this:
base em resist 0&
using 2x named Em hardener each 50%
so my new base resist is 1,86.....%
when both hardener are aktivatet i have a total em resist of 71,72799952%.
In RMR a new stacking penalty was implemented, so the information in this thread is now useless.

Jim Hsu
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.12.26 20:59:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Jim Hsu on 26/12/2005 20:59:15
See my thread (sig) .. or go to evegeek.com and use that.

Naughty Boy
Chronics of ordinary hate
Posted - 2005.12.26 23:18:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Naughty Boy on 03/04/2006 22:28:42
Originally by: Jim Hsu
See my thread (sig) .. or go to evegeek.com and use that.

O/ Jim.

Everything one (too lazy to go through Jim's very interesting thread) need to know about stacking of hardeners: the math behind hardener stacking use both the new stacking penalty and linear function adding the resistance to the unresisted part.

The formula used to stack hardeners: (final resistance)=(base resistance)+(1-stacked bonus)*(1-base resistance)
The "stacked bonus" is where the stacking penalty (see Jim Hsu's thread, credits to him) is applied:
Stacked bonus(n hardeners)=(1+bonus(a)*c(a))*(1+bonus(b)*c(b))*...*(1+bonus(i)*c(i))*...*(1+bonus(n)*c(n))
With:
* All the bonus(i) are sorted from stronger to weaker: .99 > .01 > -.99 > -.01 (convention: positive bonuses are stronger than negative bonuses, and small negative bonuses are weaker than "bigger" negative bonuses - in absolute value). And in the case of hardeners, the bonus is negative (-.5 for t1 hardeners or -.55 for t2 hardeners)
* c(i)=(1/2)^(((i-1)/2.22292081178496)^2) for i positive whole number.

Everything that is not specifically suffering from a stacking penalty (a resistance bonus coming from skills and not from a module) will not appear in the "stacked bonus" part of the formula as a separate bonus to stack. So, for a ship skill based resistance bonus, we'd have: (final resistance)=(base resistance+(total skill bonus)*(1-base resistance))+(1-stacked bonus)*(1-(base resistance+(total skill bonus)*(1-base resistance))). And for a passive bonus from the damage specific armor/shield compensation skill, we have inside the "stacked bonus" part of the formula a bonus(j)=base bonus(j)*(1+total skill bonus).

Edit: this is slightly outdated since now TQ is using two stacks, one for positive modifiers and the second for negative modifiers, however this has absolutely no impact whatsoever on the stacking of hardeners (since all modifiers are negative).

Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy.


 

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