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Nyxus
Amarr
Fat J
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2005.11.11 16:49:00 - [751]
 

Originally by: Tuxford
Originally by: Elve Sorrow
Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 11/11/2005 13:19:55
Originally by: Tuxford
yeah I know that wasn't directed at you, just any people that think that Eagle will be the uber HAC of pwnage after the changes.


Noone said itd be the uber HAC of pwnage as you so adequatly put it, just that is outclasses the Sacrilege in every possible way.

EDIT: Typo.

Yes but then we lobby for boosting the Sacrilege Razz

Wouldn't say that Eagle outclasses it in every possible way the difference between the armor tanking and shield tanking is that the sacrilege can have a good tank and still have 4 med slots free, Eagle can't do that.

Although I do admit that getting a armor resistance bonus and low armor is pretty annoying. Anyway this isn't really the thread about tech 2 ships so I won't get into any discussions about them here.


Tux - do you have any ideas on what direction the Sac should move in? We all have a ton of ideas, but don't want to bark up the wrong tree. A small push in the direction you would like to see it go towards would be nice.

As of now it's a little bit of everything, which makes it a whole lotta nothing.

Nyxus

Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2005.11.11 17:04:00 - [752]
 

Edited by: Ithildin on 11/11/2005 17:04:44
Here's a request: a review and alteration (new thred, not part of Mk2 project, that is) to the tech 2 ships that underperform.
Examples as follow
Ares
Raptor
Nemesis
Purifier
Hound
Guardian
Oneiros
Basilisk
Scimitar
Sacrilege
(Cerberus)
(Anathema)

Galldar
The Python Cartel.
The Jerk Cartel
Posted - 2005.11.11 17:05:00 - [753]
 

When does this go in affect? Next patch?

Meridius
Destructive Influence
IT Alliance
Posted - 2005.11.11 22:07:00 - [754]
 

Originally by: Tuxford
the sacrilege can have a good tank and still have 4 med slots free, Eagle can't do that.



The only setup that allows that is filled with NOS in highs and effectively makes the ship only affective at around 10km (nos range). It's mostly a heavy tackler setup which imo is just dumb as you're spending more money then a tier 1 bs (without insurance) on a ship that only tackles. The damage in that NOS setup is that of a tech 1 frigateLaughing

I think it should drop a highslot/launcher point and gain a midslot. If it's a ship heavily influenced by Caldari design, why does the Ishtar have more mids then it.

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2005.11.11 23:21:00 - [755]
 

Sure. And in a HAC gang, that's invaluable. A heavy tackler with a great tank.

Meridius
Destructive Influence
IT Alliance
Posted - 2005.11.12 00:15:00 - [756]
 

Originally by: Maya Rkell
Sure. And in a HAC gang, that's invaluable. A heavy tackler with a great tank.


You really sound like a broken record. I've said it before with numbers but i'll just put it simply, an Ishtar is a better heavy tackler. It has more speed, midslots and outputs almost 3x+ more damage with slightly less tanking ability.


Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2005.11.12 02:03:00 - [757]
 

And once more, the difference is tanking ability and setup is significant.

Meridius
Destructive Influence
IT Alliance
Posted - 2005.11.12 03:22:00 - [758]
 

Originally by: Maya Rkell
And once more, the difference is tanking ability and setup is significant.


It's pretty simple if you're not a troll.

25% resists or 1 more mid, 3x+ more damage, 100% nos dedicated highslots (can suck more cap, compensates well for not having as much cap), faster and more agile.

Tough decisionRolling Eyes

If you have a counter point please try to make a point rather then mention what the difference is and not back it up with any facts.

Jim Raynor
Caldari
Bad Kitty Inc.
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2005.11.12 08:06:00 - [759]
 

Ishtar > Sacrilege.

One has loads of drone DPS, the other doesn't, fairly comparable ships after that.

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2005.11.12 20:11:00 - [760]
 

Edited by: Maya Rkell on 12/11/2005 20:12:06
Originally by: Meridius
Originally by: Maya Rkell
And once more, the difference is tanking ability and setup is significant.


It's pretty simple if you're not a troll.

25% resists or 1 more mid, 3x+ more damage, 100% nos dedicated highslots (can suck more cap, compensates well for not having as much cap), faster and more agile.

Tough decisionRolling Eyes

If you have a counter point please try to make a point rather then mention what the difference is and not back it up with any facts.


Okay, let's go over the details AGAIN.

*Better resists, unless you want to spend 350+ mil on a membrane and even then it stacks.
*Missiles, so you can do a range of damage types and strike at any range
*Ship prices
Blah, I can't be bothered, said it all before.

If there are issues, fine. But every suggestion is trying to turn it into a bad imitation of the Zealot. (I AM in favour of doing things like adding armour and removing shield, and making the drone bay 25m≥ AFTER the changes ffs...as again I've already stated)

Meridius
Destructive Influence
IT Alliance
Posted - 2005.11.12 21:35:00 - [761]
 

Originally by: Maya Rkell
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 12/11/2005 20:12:06
Originally by: Meridius
Originally by: Maya Rkell
And once more, the difference is tanking ability and setup is significant.


It's pretty simple if you're not a troll.

25% resists or 1 more mid, 3x+ more damage, 100% nos dedicated highslots (can suck more cap, compensates well for not having as much cap), faster and more agile.

Tough decisionRolling Eyes

If you have a counter point please try to make a point rather then mention what the difference is and not back it up with any facts.


Okay, let's go over the details AGAIN.

*Better resists, unless you want to spend 350+ mil on a membrane and even then it stacks.
*Missiles, so you can do a range of damage types and strike at any range
*Ship prices
Blah, I can't be bothered, said it all before.

If there are issues, fine. But every suggestion is trying to turn it into a bad imitation of the Zealot. (I AM in favour of doing things like adding armour and removing shield, and making the drone bay 25m≥ AFTER the changes ffs...as again I've already stated)


Missiles? You mean less then 90DPS of damage? Sorry, heavy launchers suck right now and everyone and there mom knows that. I mean seriously you expect me to believe people are using Sacrileges to conduct long range attacks with a whole 3 heavy launchers?Laughing

Resists? Yeah thats a good one, read again how the Ishtar has a ton of advantages to counter that.

Once again, more mids, speed, agility, 3x+ firepower, more nossing.

It's a simple trade off, what do you want, 25% resist or all that crap i just mentioned. Only a complete nub of pvp would actually pick the resists over that, sorry.

Ship price, what are you kidding me?

HACs are priced a great deal according to the demand for them. The Sacrilege sucks thats why its so cheap compared to the Ishtar.

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2005.11.12 21:53:00 - [762]
 

Edited by: Maya Rkell on 12/11/2005 23:06:49

Er, gg for bashing heavy missiles. You know fullwell that they are getting a RoF increase and the heavy missile maths unbroken.

As for resists, again, the Ishtar cannot do better without spending 350 million+. This might seem like a small sum to you, but it is significant for the vast majority of players. That the ship has a specalisation which the Ishtar does not is precisely why it can be made useful.

And the FACT remains that the Sac is a lot lower priced than the Ishtar, regardless of your reasoning (and has a good deal to do with the specific suppliers as well as usefulness - to take another example right now, the Claw is at 6.6 million or less on the market, less than the Tarranis, despite being the better close-range interceptor - the lesser price having everything (in this case) to do with supply patterns).

And once more, I'm not saying that the sac does not need improving. I'm saying that devaluing its current strenghts is NOT the way, as most ideas here being pushed advocate to make the ship better.

You are deliberately missing my points.

Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2005.11.12 22:41:00 - [763]
 

Originally by: Jim Raynor
Ishtar > Sacrilege.

One has loads of drone DPS, the other doesn't, fairly comparable ships after that.

An interesting side point.
The top tier HACs are the lower tier T1 hulls:
Ishtar, Vagabond, Cerberus, and Zealot
These are the most costly (to produce), thus the highest tier HACs. (they're about 5% more expensive, so it's not a lot)

Kyguard
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.11.13 04:42:00 - [764]
 

Edited by: Kyguard on 13/11/2005 04:42:09
Quote:
Assault

Maller


* Poweroutput increased to 900MW

* CPU output decreased to 270tf


Are you insane? Shocked

Quote:
Omen


* Launcher hardpoint added

* Poweroutput increased to 730MW

* CPU output decreased to 250tf


Wtf were you thinking? ugh

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2005.11.13 06:00:00 - [765]
 

Hmmm, here is a small side trip. Probably not well thought out, but I'm sure that will be pointed out sharpish. Very Happy

With the rebalancing going on, AND the drone changes arriving soon as well... this makes me think that more than a few balancing sins receive absolution buy specific tweaks to drone bay size. The most glaring example that comes to mind is unfortunately on a T2 ship, the Retribution. Supported by some for it's incredible toughness, it is for the most part considered useless due to it's single mid-slot. I personally find that to be an interesting challenge, but to address this issue the addition of a mid-sized drone bay could work wonders to increase the ships versatility without changing the single mid-slot design. Scrambling drones comes to mind, or webbing... although armor repair drones would make it indescribably hard to take down (but your target could still simply leave of course if you went that route).
Several other ships come to mind, the one's that are gimped in one way or the other, but the dev's have been reluctant to change the "flavor" of the ship to compensate.

Jim Raynor
Caldari
Bad Kitty Inc.
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2005.11.13 06:04:00 - [766]
 

Originally by: Kyguard
Edited by: Kyguard on 13/11/2005 04:42:09
Quote:
Assault

Maller


* Poweroutput increased to 900MW

* CPU output decreased to 270tf


Are you insane? Shocked

Quote:
Omen


* Launcher hardpoint added

* Poweroutput increased to 730MW

* CPU output decreased to 250tf


Wtf were you thinking? ugh


Rupture cant fit a full rack of 720mm + Launchers, Moa can't do it with 250mm Rails + Launchers.. Amarr ships have it pretty easy with pulse, they should be a little screwed on CPU like many other ships are starved on power.. tbh.

(i am assuming that is why they are lowering these ships cpu)

Capt 69
Caldari
GoonFleet
Posted - 2005.11.13 11:33:00 - [767]
 

Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't the frig changes another mini-nerf for missles? If they are moving faster, in the hands of the right pilot that means yet less damage done?

It is late ... educate me

Capt 69
Caldari
GoonFleet
Posted - 2005.11.13 11:38:00 - [768]
 

Originally by: Maya Rkell
Sure. And in a HAC gang, that's invaluable. A heavy tackler with a great tank.


Just a point but the Vagabond makes a much better tackler, you can get it to 6k m/s with the right skills and plants, it has 4 mid slots (2 7.5k's, web mwd) and lots of low for those nanofibers and a fat plate. It'll outrun anything, and you can fit a decent frig/ t1 cruiser killer gun setup on there. Now if they only came @ 50 mil ....

Trelennen
Disturbed Hoggs
Posted - 2005.11.13 16:11:00 - [769]
 

Originally by: Capt 69
Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't the frig changes another mini-nerf for missles? If they are moving faster, in the hands of the right pilot that means yet less damage done?

It is late ... educate me

You need to have a MWD active on a frig to see damage reduction from missiles ya know? And when orbiting pretty close, your speed is further reduced. Currently, a light missiles will already do more damage to a T1 frig + AB orbiting close than any long range turret...

And all matari frigs will move slower than before... Hence they'll take more damage while mwding than currently, and they have lower HP.

Kyguard
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.11.13 16:28:00 - [770]
 

Edited by: Kyguard on 13/11/2005 16:28:45
Quote:
Rupture cant fit a full rack of 720mm + Launchers, Moa can't do it with 250mm Rails + Launchers.. Amarr ships have it pretty easy with pulse, they should be a little screwed on CPU like many other ships are starved on power.. tbh.

(i am assuming that is why they are lowering these ships cpu)


Now, it won't even be able to fit a full rack of focused medium pulse lasers with a decent tank. Especially considering Amarr ships have always had CPU problems, which is why they aren't as flexible as some of the other ships Confused

That's a drop in 30 CPU btw, which is a lot for any ship, especially a cruiser.

Nyxus
Amarr
Fat J
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2005.11.13 17:28:00 - [771]
 

Quote:
Rupture cant fit a full rack of 720mm + Launchers, Moa can't do it with 250mm Rails + Launchers.. Amarr ships have it pretty easy with pulse, they should be a little screwed on CPU like many other ships are starved on power.. tbh.


Wrong. With all T1 fittings largest weapons max skills:

ArrowRupture: Grid Left -17.5, CPU Left 235
ArrowMoa: Grid Left -52.5, CPU Left 305
ArrowThorax: Grid Left 50, CPU Left 225
ArrowMaller w/Nos: Grid Left -175, CPU Left 181.25
ArrowMaller w/Smarbomb: Grid Left -200, CPU Left 156.25
ArrowMaller w/Empty High: Grid 0, CPU Left 206.25
ArrowOmen: Grid Left -77.5, CPU Left 170

So let's see. Every ship has CPU left over. Maller and Omen have the least, as it should be. Everyone is short on grid except the Rax, which still has 50 to fit defensive mods.

The Moa needs more grid. It should be sitting about 0 or
-20 grid with largest T1 weapons (let alone T2). It has the fewest lows to compensate it's grid. A tank in the mids doesn't need much grid but -52 grid while the Rax has 50 extra and the Ruppie is only at -17.5 in the same long range fitting is not balanced. If the Rax fits blasters and a microwarp then it does run into grid issues.....but why would you bother with it when 250's have such a larger range and allow a better tank as well?

The Maller and the Omen just need help, period. The lowest CPU after fitting, and no significant grid advantage after fitting either, which is where they should shine tbh. Especially when you consider that armor tanks require a significant amount of grid to fit. Why does the Rax have more grid after fitting than the Maller or Omen?

If the Omen is meant to be a pulse fitting ship I can understand the grid difference to an extent. The -77 grid when trying to fit beams will force it to a short range role. It will have no other option.

The Maller is in the worst shape of all these ships. It deals the least damage of all the Tier 3 cruisers (bar the Moa, the long range specialist. But all know the Moa needs help too) and lacks any significant grid advantage to mount a tank effectively.

In addition, it has to leave a high slot empty to even begin to be able to fit anything other than RCU down low. No other ship has this issue. When fitting a Nos or Smartbomb the Maller at max skills is so negative in grid that it's absurd. What other ship has to leave a highslot empty or be sitting at -200 grid with max skills? What about low to mid sp characters?

Finally, the Maller is significantly outdamaged by the Rax and Ruppie already, while both drones and heavy missile launchers are getting a boost. Drones are getting more potent if fewer in number while gaining tremendous flexibility not available to the Maller at all. Heavy Missiles are getting a large boost, rumor has it up to 20% in either damage or ROF only furthering the already suprisingly large damage gap between the Maller, Rax, and Ruppie. Please look back a few pages to see the analysis and breakdown.

The Maller and Omen should have a significant grid advantage over the other racial ships, just as the other ships have distinct CPU advantage over them. Currently they do not. In fact, the Maller with a full fitting has the least leftover grid of all cruisers. With similar fittings the other cruisers significantly outdamage the Maller, and where the Maller should have the grid to set up a significant better defense (as the defensive cruiser) it does not.

The Maller needs more grid, and tbh the Omen and Moa could use a bit more as well. The Maller should have more grid so that it can fit all it's slots and a tank since with the largest T1 weapons it is outdamaged by it's counterparts by such a large margin. This damage output gap is just going to get larger with the drone upgrades and heavy missile upgrades.

Nyxus

Nafri
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.11.13 22:28:00 - [772]
 

Originally by: Nyxus
Quote:
Rupture cant fit a full rack of 720mm + Launchers, Moa can't do it with 250mm Rails + Launchers.. Amarr ships have it pretty easy with pulse, they should be a little screwed on CPU like many other ships are starved on power.. tbh.


Wrong. With all T1 fittings largest weapons max skills:

ArrowRupture: Grid Left -17.5, CPU Left 235
ArrowMoa: Grid Left -52.5, CPU Left 305
ArrowThorax: Grid Left 50, CPU Left 225
ArrowMaller w/Nos: Grid Left -175, CPU Left 181.25
ArrowMaller w/Smarbomb: Grid Left -200, CPU Left 156.25
ArrowMaller w/Empty High: Grid 0, CPU Left 206.25
ArrowOmen: Grid Left -77.5, CPU Left 170

So let's see. Every ship has CPU left over. Maller and Omen have the least, as it should be. Everyone is short on grid except the Rax, which still has 50 to fit defensive mods.

The Moa needs more grid. It should be sitting about 0 or
-20 grid with largest T1 weapons (let alone T2). It has the fewest lows to compensate it's grid. A tank in the mids doesn't need much grid but -52 grid while the Rax has 50 extra and the Ruppie is only at -17.5 in the same long range fitting is not balanced. If the Rax fits blasters and a microwarp then it does run into grid issues.....but why would you bother with it when 250's have such a larger range and allow a better tank as well?

The Maller and the Omen just need help, period. The lowest CPU after fitting, and no significant grid advantage after fitting either, which is where they should shine tbh. Especially when you consider that armor tanks require a significant amount of grid to fit. Why does the Rax have more grid after fitting than the Maller or Omen?

If the Omen is meant to be a pulse fitting ship I can understand the grid difference to an extent. The -77 grid when trying to fit beams will force it to a short range role. It will have no other option.

The Maller is in the worst shape of all these ships. It deals the least damage of all the Tier 3 cruisers (bar the Moa, the long range specialist. But all know the Moa needs help too) and lacks any significant grid advantage to mount a tank effectively.

In addition, it has to leave a high slot empty to even begin to be able to fit anything other than RCU down low. No other ship has this issue. When fitting a Nos or Smartbomb the Maller at max skills is so negative in grid that it's absurd. What other ship has to leave a highslot empty or be sitting at -200 grid with max skills? What about low to mid sp characters?

Finally, the Maller is significantly outdamaged by the Rax and Ruppie already, while both drones and heavy missile launchers are getting a boost. Drones are getting more potent if fewer in number while gaining tremendous flexibility not available to the Maller at all. Heavy Missiles are getting a large boost, rumor has it up to 20% in either damage or ROF only furthering the already suprisingly large damage gap between the Maller, Rax, and Ruppie. Please look back a few pages to see the analysis and breakdown.

The Maller and Omen should have a significant grid advantage over the other racial ships, just as the other ships have distinct CPU advantage over them. Currently they do not. In fact, the Maller with a full fitting has the least leftover grid of all cruisers. With similar fittings the other cruisers significantly outdamage the Maller, and where the Maller should have the grid to set up a significant better defense (as the defensive cruiser) it does not.

The Maller needs more grid, and tbh the Omen and Moa could use a bit more as well. The Maller should have more grid so that it can fit all it's slots and a tank since with the largest T1 weapons it is outdamaged by it's counterparts by such a large margin. This damage output gap is just going to get larger with the drone upgrades and heavy missile upgrades.

Nyxus



Since I have different numbers for rupture I guess you forgot the heavy launchers

Nyxus
Amarr
Fat J
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2005.11.14 02:13:00 - [773]
 

Edited by: Nyxus on 14/11/2005 02:13:51
T1 720 Grid w skills 225 CPU 22.5

Four T1 720's Grid 900 CPU 90

T1 Heavy Launcher w/ skills Grid 90 CPU 37.5

Two Heavy Launchers w/skills Grid 180 CPU 75

Total Ruppie Max T1 Weap: Grid 1080 CPU 165.

MK2 Ruppie Grid w/max skills 1062.5 - 1080 Weap = -17.5 Grid

MK2 Ruppie CPU w/ max skills 400 - 165 Weap = 235 CPU

If I have made a mistake somewhere on my Excel spreadsheet I am more than happy to correct it. I am using the MK2 numbers since we are talking about MK2 changes, and that might account for the difference. Ruppie gets more grid which makes for a easier fit.

Nyxus

Trelennen
Disturbed Hoggs
Posted - 2005.11.14 02:49:00 - [774]
 

Originally by: Nyxus
Edited by: Nyxus on 14/11/2005 02:13:51
T1 720 Grid w skills 225 CPU 22.5

Four T1 720's Grid 900 CPU 90

T1 Heavy Launcher w/ skills Grid 90 CPU 37.5

Two Heavy Launchers w/skills Grid 180 CPU 75

Total Ruppie Max T1 Weap: Grid 1080 CPU 165.

MK2 Ruppie Grid w/max skills 1062.5 - 1080 Weap = -17.5 Grid

MK2 Ruppie CPU w/ max skills 400 - 165 Weap = 235 CPU

If I have made a mistake somewhere on my Excel spreadsheet I am more than happy to correct it. I am using the MK2 numbers since we are talking about MK2 changes, and that might account for the difference. Ruppie gets more grid which makes for a easier fit.

Nyxus

MK2 ruppy has 1075 (860*1.25) grid with skills, 406.25 (325*1.25) CPU
MK2 Maller has 1125 (900*1.25) grid with skills, 337.5 (270*1.25) CPU

so with 4 720mm T1 + 2 heavy launchers T1, ruppy has -5 grid and 196.25 CPU.

with 5 heavy beams, maller has no grid left and 206.25 CPU.

Maller has one more low slot though, so it can easilier fit a grid mod (RCU for example), and will benefit more from it due to the higher initial grid. As long as base grids differs, you can't consider only fitting without grid mods too, as you'd need them anyway if you wanna fit anything else besides weapons.

ruppy do better damage with its 6 weapons slots than maller with its 5 only because ruppy as two damage bonii, rof and damage (with only one it would underperform), while maller has a tank bonus, that's why I consider the utility slot should not be considered in the weapon only fitting comparison.

And as I see it, I'm pretty sure the ruppy is initialy meant for a basic shield tank and damage/tracking mods in lows, hence the higher CPU (minmatar are divided between shield tank - usualy supposed to be at range due to requirements - and armor tank - usualy supposed to be close range due to requirements -, and clearly the stabber is the AC minimal armor tank boat, and the ruppy the arty minimal shield tank boat - remember a strong tank is not supposed to be minmatar philosophy, even if a strong tank in the game is most of the time mandatory, which tends to make people use ships in a different way that the one they were intended to in the first place).
Maller has 5 more grid after guns for the rest of fitting and will benefit more from grid upgrades, and is meant for a pretty strong armor tank. Hence it should not need that much CPU to fit the rest.

Naughty Boy
Chronics of ordinary hate
Posted - 2005.11.14 04:20:00 - [775]
 

Edited by: Naughty Boy on 14/11/2005 13:28:11
Iíve developed a simple model to compare damage by various weapons in various circumstances, as standard damage calculations are now proved to be very misleading because of the factors that are usually left out.
I also understand that figures, charts and the rest cannot replace testing, but I believe that they can improve the way we test and the determination of test situations.

Quick description of the model
The variables are total damage and range.
The parameters are velocity, transversal velocity, signature radius, and fight time.

The model simply adds the damage of guns, missiles, and drones for each range.
* Gun damage: the damage is determined by the tracking formula used in the tracking guide. Each kind of ammo is compared and the optimal ammo is used for every range. Reloading time not taken into account.
* Missile damage: the damage is determined by the missile reduction formula discovered by Electr0freak. In addition is used a damage reduction formula to take flight time into account.
* Drone damage: This formula uses a damage reduction formula similar to the one taking the flight time of missiles into account. There is still a relatively important inaccuracy as drones are supposed to intercept ships in this formula, which is a problem for high speeds since it becomes noticeable that they do not intercept.

All the formulas do not use standard dps calculations. Instead, cumulative damage done is divided by the total fight, in order to show the effect of alpha strike/burst damage when useful.

Results of the model (long range cruisers) - no drone damage
Setups
I used the setups proposed by Nyxus above:
Thorax: 5 * 250mm t1
Rupture: 4 * 720mm t1 and 2 heavy missiles t1
Moa: 4 * 250mm t1
Moa: 4 * 200mm t1 and 2 heavy missiles
Maller: 5 Heavy Beam t1

Graphs (no damage mod)
Stationary target (velocity: 0m/s, sig radius: 1000m; fight time: 300s ~infinite time)
frigate sized target (velocity: 350m/s, transversal velocity: 350m/s, sig radius: 40m; fight time: 60s)
frigate sized target (velocity: 350m/s, transversal velocity: 200m/s, sig radius: 40m; fight time: 60s)
Cruiser sized target (velocity: 220m/s, transversal velocity 220m/s, sig radius: 125m; fight time: 60s)
Cruiser sized target (velocity: 220m/s, transversal velocity 125m/s, sig radius: 125m; fight time: 60s)

Graphs (4 damage mods)
Stationary target (velocity: 0m/s, sig radius: 1000m; fight time: 300s ~infinite time)
frigate sized target (velocity: 350m/s, transversal velocity: 350m/s, sig radius: 40m; fight time: 60s)
frigate sized target (velocity: 350m/s, transversal velocity: 200m/s, sig radius: 40m; fight time: 60s)
Cruiser sized target (velocity: 220m/s, transversal velocity 220m/s, sig radius: 125m; fight time: 60s)
Cruiser sized target (velocity: 220m/s, transversal velocity 125m/s, sig radius: 125m; fight time: 60s)

(continued)
Edit: corrected 2 errors (incorrect damage calculation for damage mods and incorrect damage & explosion radius for heavy missiles).

Naughty Boy
Chronics of ordinary hate
Posted - 2005.11.14 04:20:00 - [776]
 

Edited by: Naughty Boy on 14/11/2005 13:28:25
Results of the model (close range cruisers)
Setups
Thorax: 5 * electrons t1 and 10 * medium drones t1 (valkyries)
Thorax: 5 * ions t1 and 10 * medium drones t1 (valkyries)
Rupture: 4 * 220mm t1, 2 heavy missiles t1 and 6 * medium drones t1 (valkyries)
Moa: 4 * electrons t1, 2 heavy missiles and 5 * light drones t1 (warrior)
Moa: 4 * ions t1, 2 heavy missiles and 5 * light drones t1 (warrior)
Maller: 5 Heavy Pulse t1

Graphs (no damage mod)
Stationary target (velocity: 0m/s, sig radius: 1000m; fight time: 300s ~infinite time)
frigate sized target (velocity: 350m/s, transversal velocity: 350m/s, sig radius: 40m; fight time: 60s)
frigate sized target (velocity: 350m/s, transversal velocity: 200m/s, sig radius: 40m; fight time: 60s)
Cruiser sized target (velocity: 220m/s, transversal velocity 220m/s, sig radius: 125m; fight time: 60s)
Cruiser sized target (velocity: 220m/s, transversal velocity 125m/s, sig radius: 125m; fight time: 60s)

Graphs (4 damage mods)
Stationary target (velocity: 0m/s, sig radius: 1000m; fight time: 300s ~infinite time)
frigate sized target (velocity: 350m/s, transversal velocity: 350m/s, sig radius: 40m; fight time: 60s)
frigate sized target (velocity: 350m/s, transversal velocity: 200m/s, sig radius: 40m; fight time: 60s)
Cruiser sized target (velocity: 220m/s, transversal velocity 220m/s, sig radius: 125m; fight time: 60s)
Cruiser sized target (velocity: 220m/s, transversal velocity 125m/s, sig radius: 125m; fight time: 60s)

Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy.

Edit: corrected 2 errors (incorrect damage calculation for damage mods and incorrect damage & explosion radius for heavy missiles).

Naughty Boy
Chronics of ordinary hate
Posted - 2005.11.14 05:01:00 - [777]
 

Edited by: Naughty Boy on 14/11/2005 13:01:21
Edit: No longer applies.

Sorja
11th Division
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2005.11.14 05:46:00 - [778]
 

Originally by: Tuxford
Wouldn't say that Eagle outclasses it in every possible way the difference between the armor tanking and shield tanking is that the sacrilege can have a good tank and still have 4 med slots free, Eagle can't do that.


This can't be true, Tuxy acknowledging that free midslots are 'nice' Wink

Out of curiosity, where would you put the Moa on the usefulness scale with it's 4 mids, please?
Right, in the armor tankers category because there is no other choice (only one less lowslot than a Sac or Rax, btw).
The Eagle can shield tank because of it's natural resistances and 5 midslots, none of which the Moa has (nor firepower mind you).

I'm pretty sure I must be annoying you coming up with the same concern regularly (for which I humbly apologize) but, unless I missed it, you ignored those concerns so far.

While having HAC at 4, I still fly Moas from time to time Tux, with 150 TII rails, 1600mm plate and electronic war in mids.

If posting killmails wasn't now forbidden, I'd point you at the kills I can get with the small guns/plated Moa and the fitting I had on those I lost, but you can find it from the sticky in the corporations discussions forum if you think I'm making things up.

It's nearly XMas, one good move, please ugh

Theron Gyrow
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2005.11.14 07:33:00 - [779]
 

Nice graphs, Naughty Boy! They look very useful, I'll need to mull over them a bit before commenting more. Just a couple of questions:

- maxed skills?
- current heavy missile launcher stats?
- why the sudden dropoff for all close-range cruisers at max drone range, 45km? The heavy launchers should carry further than that.

Theron Gyrow
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2005.11.14 07:37:00 - [780]
 

Edited by: Theron Gyrow on 14/11/2005 07:37:06
Originally by: Nyxus
ArrowThorax: Grid Left 50, CPU Left 225



Thorax isn't getting 850 grid anymore, 820 is the current value. So Thorax would have 12.5 grid left after 5*250mm rail (with advanced weapon upgrades V).


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