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blankseplocked Is Raven so much better for NPC'ing than Apoc?
 
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Moghydin
Silver Snake Enterprise
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2005.10.13 15:44:00 - [1]
 

Here's the point. I'm hunting NPC's in 0.0 for some time in an apoc. And guess what, taking down the bs spawnes is hard, really hard. When I wasn't using torps it was plainly impossible; now I fit 2 siege launchers and taking down battleships up to 750k is possible, but 1 mill battleships just refuse to die. I have the feeling that if I had 4 launchers, I could take down nearly any spawn (may be except the best ones). That's not that my missile skills rock. Quite the opposite, I have nearly 1 mill sp's in gunnery and a pathetic 141k in missiles. Yet I tend to get pitifull 60-70 dmg hits at these 1 mill bs's. May be it's my skills, may be it's the setup. But atm it looks to me that in Raven I could take them down without problems (I'm possibly wrong here as I never had a Raven, I only see how much even 2 launchers help).

Here's my setup for NPC (may be something wrong is here, but it looks ok for me):

Hi: 4x mega beam lasers; 2x medium Modulated energy beams (anti-frig); 2x named siege launchers

Med: 1x Webby; 3x named cap rechargers

Low: 1x WCS (not much in PvP, but helps if NPC get too nasty); 1x CPR; 1x Large armor rep; 4x active hardeners

TuRtLe HeAd
Apocalypse Enterprises
Posted - 2005.10.13 15:46:00 - [2]
 

Maybe you outta Try Cruise launchers instead.

Its the LAsers that take the BS's Down not the Torps.

Use Cruiser missiles for the litte frigs and Cruisers.

Try Squeezing on 6 Large beam lasers, And you'll notice How much faster the 1 mill rats go down.

Wrayeth
EdgeGamers
Situation: Normal
Posted - 2005.10.13 15:51:00 - [3]
 

Better yet, if you can afford one (which I can't :P), a faction smartbomb will do wonders. A 7.5km smartbomb will pop just about any NPC frig that's in orbit around you.

Go with 6 or 7 megabeams or megapulse and 1 or 2 large smartbombs.

R31D
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2005.10.13 15:51:00 - [4]
 

Have you ever tried firing those torps at frigs/cruisers? Now imagine a ship where that's the only damage you could do...

Try fitting some mega pulse guns, they do good damage and the range isn't too bad. Megabeams are fine if you prefer range, but if they can hit you at that range, and you can tank them easily, the extra damage is worth the range you lose. Either way, use drones for anti-frig work or just ignore the frigs altogether. It's not a mission and so you don't need to kill them

Zaintiraris
Caldari
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2005.10.13 15:55:00 - [5]
 

Ravens pretty good, but the upkeep cost is significantly greater than an apoc. It will cut into the amount of money you make overall for a rat kill.

Wrayeth
EdgeGamers
Situation: Normal
Posted - 2005.10.13 15:56:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Zaintiraris
Ravens pretty good, but the upkeep cost is significantly greater than an apoc. It will cut into the amount of money you make overall for a rat kill.


It will also leave you little room for loot.

Cherok
Resurrection
R i s e
Posted - 2005.10.13 15:56:00 - [7]
 

8xtacs
2 sensor boosters, 2 tracking comps
1-2 Damage mods, 1-2 tracking enhancers, 1-3 Reactors

Use tech 2 in the above setup wherever possible. Warp in at 100...lay waste to anything. If you find yourself short on cap, put a relay in low slot. Use crystals to fit your range.

I have no problem taking down 3+ mil rats. Frigs die fast but you need to lock em first and kill em at range else you won't hit at <30km. If anything gets under <20km...warp out. (always be aligned)

Cherok

Sc0rpion
Faster Pussycat Kill Kill
Posted - 2005.10.13 16:09:00 - [8]
 

You don't mention what kind of rats you are hunting. If it's Angels, yeah, go get a Raven. If not, train more gunnery skills. Don't forget the drones.

Moghydin
Silver Snake Enterprise
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2005.10.13 16:13:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Sc0rpion
You don't mention what kind of rats you are hunting. If it's Angels, yeah, go get a Raven. If not, train more gunnery skills. Don't forget the drones.


I'm hunting guristas.

JoCool
Caldari
Posted - 2005.10.13 16:18:00 - [10]
 

Caldari and Gallente are the Guristas natural enemies considering damage types and resistances.

Generally Caldari and Gallente pve the best north, while Minmatar and Amarr in south and west.

Corvus Crax
Posted - 2005.10.13 16:24:00 - [11]
 

Well. The damagetype makes a lot of difference. If your EM and Thermal damage is crap against their resists then you are kinda borked with the lasers. Torps are pretty nice in that you can change damagetype to fit the target but you might be fooled by your relatively high damageoutput(in fact apocs do more pure damage normally). Defenders are crap for players but they seem to work very nicely for the rats. One of the rats I've been up against picked off four torps out of the six in every salvo...let's just say I had to call in help for that one...


HippoKing
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2005.10.13 16:27:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Cherok
8xtacs
2 sensor boosters, 2 tracking comps
1-2 Damage mods, 1-2 tracking enhancers, 1-3 Reactors


how many reactors? Shocked

Slater Dogstar
Gallente
Doomheim
Posted - 2005.10.13 17:18:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: HippoKing
Originally by: Cherok
8xtacs
2 sensor boosters, 2 tracking comps
1-2 Damage mods, 1-2 tracking enhancers, 1-3 Reactors


how many reactors? Shocked


Im guessing her skills are very low, as is her experience with apocs judjing by the setup.

Try this

6 mega beams 2 small lasers for small targets

4 cap rechargers 2's

3 hardners
rest use modules to increase cap recharg rate.

Also skill wise level up cap recharg skills they are essential to active tanking

Ras Blumin
A Cross The Universe
Posted - 2005.10.13 17:42:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Wrayeth
Originally by: Zaintiraris
Ravens pretty good, but the upkeep cost is significantly greater than an apoc. It will cut into the amount of money you make overall for a rat kill.


It will also leave you little room for loot.
GSC's ftw.

SilverSoldier
Amarr
BlackSky inc.
Posted - 2005.10.13 17:49:00 - [15]
 

you realy should stick to 1 type of gun imo. i use this setup

6 tach II with multis fitted(u should use named ones as u dont have much gunnery skills for it i gues??)
2 med nosferatus for leeching(not realy usefull tbh)

mid: 4 cap rechII or the named ones

low 2 named large reppers, 2 to 3 hardeners, the rest cap power relays ( use 2 hardeners if u cant keep up with the cap, ull need 3 if you want to stay alive against them big ugly spawns)

i usualy warp in at 15 km but its better to warp in at 30 as ure on your optimal then

i never tried a raven but i heard it can tank real good so its worth a shot. but all the misiles you use cost lots more in the end that an apox so u wil earn more with the apox i gues

grtz,

silversoldier

markol
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2005.10.13 18:01:00 - [16]
 

If you are hunting gurristas in an apoc, you are losing out. Their resists to thermal and EM is huge. Get a raven. You cargo hold sux, but if you only pick up BS loot, there is plenty of it. Just pack 420 torps every time you go out.

I have never driven an apoc, but my guess is that your skills suck. 1m in gunnery is nothing. Get rid of the medium lasers too. Fit all large lasers, and let your drones deal with the frigs. Fit a single smart bomb so that you can get the ceptors in a few blasts and run if needed. Make sure you dont blast your own drones. Fit for medium range. All gurrista BS are between 17 and 50km from you. No idea how lasers work, but that is the range you need to hit at.

Here's your strategy. Warp in, lock BS and start pounding away with your big guns. If there are cruisers present, lock a couple and send your drones after them. If there are ceptors present, wait for them to get under 5k range, and blast away with your smart bomb. Make sure your drones are furher out at this point dealing with the cruisers. If you got those nasty frigs that hang at 7k, make the drones come back and deal with them. Once the BS is down, use your big guns to help the drones with cruisers. Since you are not using torps, you can blast with your bomb at any time when the drones are far away, that helps a lot with how quick you can get rid of a spawn.

FalloutBoy
Posted - 2005.10.13 18:39:00 - [17]
 

yup guristas suck in an apoc, I like either my Eagle or my Domi for killing them

Elrathias
Caldari
Legio Prima Victrix
Posted - 2005.10.13 18:48:00 - [18]
 

i would take a laser based ship for npcing over any other ship any day. "infinite" ammo is THE argument here.

FalloutBoy
Posted - 2005.10.13 21:51:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Elrathias
i would take a laser based ship for npcing over any other ship any day. "infinite" ammo is THE argument here.


unless your not colecting loot, you'll still need ot go back to base to unload loot, so its no big ot have to toss in more ammo at this time also

Ashelth
Caldari
The Raven Warriors
Posted - 2005.10.14 09:37:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Moghydin

Here's my setup for NPC (may be something wrong is here, but it looks ok for me):

Hi: 4x mega beam lasers; 2x medium Modulated energy beams (anti-frig); 2x named siege launchers

Med: 1x Webby; 3x named cap rechargers

Low: 1x WCS (not much in PvP, but helps if NPC get too nasty); 1x CPR; 1x Large armor rep; 4x active hardeners


Horrible setup :p

Highs:

6x mega beams/2x medium pulse (the small ones)

OR

5x tachs/3x heavy beam (medium sized)

Mids:

4x cap rechargers

Lows:

2 Large armor repairers, 3x hardeners, 2 relays.

You should get 7000 or so cap with around 200 sec recharge w/ decent skill and all unnamed tech1 gear... More than enough to run all 8 guns and 1 repairer indefinately.

Use drones on the frigates and go to town on the bses with the rest of the guns.

Personally I like the tachs over the beams... They seem to do a bit more damage when backed up with the medium beams (which reach out to 28km w/ gammas).

Rex Martell
Caldari
Posted - 2005.10.14 10:20:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Moghydin
Here's the point. I'm hunting NPC's in 0.0 for some time in an apoc. And guess what, taking down the bs spawnes is hard, really hard. When I wasn't using torps it was plainly impossible; now I fit 2 siege launchers and taking down battleships up to 750k is possible, but 1 mill battleships just refuse to die. I have the feeling that if I had 4 launchers, I could take down nearly any spawn (may be except the best ones). That's not that my missile skills rock. Quite the opposite, I have nearly 1 mill sp's in gunnery and a pathetic 141k in missiles. Yet I tend to get pitifull 60-70 dmg hits at these 1 mill bs's. May be it's my skills, may be it's the setup. But atm it looks to me that in Raven I could take them down without problems (I'm possibly wrong here as I never had a Raven, I only see how much even 2 launchers help).

Here's my setup for NPC (may be something wrong is here, but it looks ok for me):

Hi: 4x mega beam lasers; 2x medium Modulated energy beams (anti-frig); 2x named siege launchers

Med: 1x Webby; 3x named cap rechargers

Low: 1x WCS (not much in PvP, but helps if NPC get too nasty); 1x CPR; 1x Large armor rep; 4x active hardeners


When NPC'ing in 0.0 you always have the option of warping in at 80-100km at that range you can kill frigates with you large turrets. So do.

Take out those medium turrets out they are killing your setup.

as you have 1 Mill skill poiints invested in Gunnery use guns not missiles.

As a priority train Motion Prediction to IV if not already and to V as soon as possible the extre tracking will help increase the damage you do. Second skill to train is Sharp Shooter to IV and then V this will allow you to use more powerful short range crystals.

Learn to use drones they are your friends.

Jim Steele
Dead By Dawn
Posted - 2005.10.14 10:29:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Moghydin
Quite the opposite, I have nearly 1 mill sp's in gunnery
Thats probibly the problem, anyway try reading my Apoc Post and using a dual accom tank will last you longer.
To be honest i prefer megapulse the tracking is much better so possible to hit webbed cruisers at 15k with it. Ok to be fair that might have something to do with my gunnary skills (9mil).

1 mil in gunnary aint really enough imho to warrent flying a turret based BS, it might be ok for a raven, but post missile nerf im not so sure.

you could consider using dual heavy beams, they are probibly better for npcing then megabeams since they allow you to fit a better tank and have slightly better tracking...

Madmartigan
Gallente
Helljumpers
White Noise.
Posted - 2005.10.14 10:46:00 - [23]
 

If your spaceship command skill is somewhat in favour of Amarr battleships, and your tanking skills are mostly in that direction by all means use the Apoc.

If lasers arenīt doing the trick for you, consider using hybrid rails or projectile artillery cannons.
The Apocīs bonuses are all towards cap usage, if you use projectiles you actually gain the NON cap usage of projectiles and thus gives you more cap for tanking. Plus with projectiles you have the option of doing all damage types with the right ammo. Same goes of course with the Raven, but obviously with missiles in mind.

Some may call it a blasphemy to use enemy guns on the glorious Apoc, but the end justifies the means in this case imo.

Mad

Moghydin
Silver Snake Enterprise
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2005.10.14 11:09:00 - [24]
 

Thanx all for the different ideas and approaches :) The problem is that I'd like to specialize in something (like lasers) getting both projectile skills to being able to use 1400 Howitzer II's and Tachyons II in lasers will take lots and lots of time for me (although the idea of using low cap weapon on apoc is very temting Smile). Anyway, I think it's time to start learning some new gunnery skills and push some existing to lvl 5 at last.

Going for all-heavy turret setup is problematic. Drones can help, but sometimes NPC's shoot drones and when drones are gone, you can't hit frigs at all. Looks like my skills is the problem and not the ship itself, so I guess I'm back at learning gunnery.

Otzendon
Posted - 2005.10.14 13:03:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Otzendon on 14/10/2005 13:16:45
Not a direct answer to your question:
Well, for NPCing I use a crusdader (ceptor) with 4 small dual pulse II (with multis) , abI, tracking computer I, small repperII, heat sink II and tracking enhancer II, one cpr.
I am only hunting rats which launch no or only few rockets (sansha, blood, gurista).
With decent engineering skills you can keep the ab, the pulses and the tracking computer indefinitely running. Since I am orbitting at 2km I get rarely hit by the cruisers. So usually you need the repper very rarely. And imo a repper in deep 0.0 (thats where i am hunting at) is necessary.

With this setup approximately 80% of my shots are well aimed or better. Frigs are your death - if you get webbed you die instantly by 2or3 hits of an npc-battleship. My rate of fire (rapid firing at lvl4) is 1.9 and so i make between 100 and 200damage (and i think this can still be improved) every 1.9seconds (depends if you are attacking, shield, armor or structure).

Big andavantage:
- it is way cheaper compared to a bs
- you can check the loot cans very fast
- you can travel fast ( f.e. I am hunting in deepest .0 and have no problem doing this trip within 15minutes starting in empirespace)
- if you encounter any pvp pirates (mostly your system is empty or a PVE-Player is in your system) you can run very easily-and if you want to survive, you have to run. Since this setup is pure PVE and damage based, you have a fair chance to win in case you are caught by an PvP-Ceptor (because it wastes 2-3med slots for scrambler and webber)
- you can browse the belts very fast

Disadvantag:
- small ship cargo --> so you have to pick the best cherrys of the loot and leave the better or good stuff.
- as long as you encounter any spawns with frigs in it - forget it.
- biggest disadvantag is the time you need to destroy a 1mill or 750k rat. Takes between 4-6 minutes. cruisers (up to 110k) die pretty fast (one or max. 2 minutes) But I think you can compensate it with the less time you need for checking the loot, especially compared with a long-range bs-setup.
- as soon as you stop you will die - always keep moving.

OK thats my comment about that. You should try it - its fun.

Sc0rpion
Faster Pussycat Kill Kill
Posted - 2005.10.14 14:11:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Moghydin
(although the idea of using low cap weapon on apoc is very temting Smile)


I assure you, once you get your cap skills to 5, and get some decent cap rechargers, you'll hardly notice the cap usage.

Originally by: Moghydin
Anyway, I think it's time to start learning some new gunnery skills and push some existing to lvl 5 at last.


That will help a lot. 1 million SP in gunnery really isn't very much. Gunnery 5 on it's own is 250k.

Originally by: Moghydin
Going for all-heavy turret setup is problematic. Drones can help, but sometimes NPC's shoot drones and when drones are gone, you can't hit frigs at all.


Keeping your drones alive takes practice. A good rule of thumb is to not launch them at all until *every* rat is flashing red in your overview. It's not 100% because they will still sometimes switch targets, but it helps.

And yeah, for Guristas, go for a Dominix. If you are really determined to stick with the apoc though, move to the south and find some bloods or sanshas. You will get way better preformance.

dabster
Minmatar
Di Hart's Solar Systems Corporation
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2005.10.14 14:27:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Jim Steele
Originally by: Moghydin
Quite the opposite, I have nearly 1 mill sp's in gunnery
Thats probibly the problem,


Beat me to it, VERY surprised nobody else has pointed it out Shocked 1 mill in gunnery is horribly little to npc with in a turret ship, simple as that imho.
Try sucking roids for another 1-2 months atleast, while you train nothing but gunnery. Large laser 4, motion prediction/rapid firing 4, surgical strike 4. Those go fairly fast to train up and make a lot of difference.

Echo147
E X O D U S
Imperial Republic Of the North
Posted - 2005.10.14 14:34:00 - [28]
 

Before falling in love with the Zealot for Guristas NPC hunting, I had settled on the following Apoc setup (although I had named guns / ab):

High: 7 x mega pulse laser I / officer smartbomb

Mid: 100mn AB II / 3 x Cap Charger IIs

Low: large armour repairer II / thermic hardener II / 2 x kinetic hardener II / Heat Sink II / 2 x Cap Relay I

If you've enough patience to let 6 wasp drones kill scramblers, you can save buying the bomb and use another mega pulse in slot 8.

IMHO this is one of the most effective setups available because of pulse's great ROF, and your ability to catch up with all bships using the ab. So once in range with multifrequency (~12km) blast away and pick up the loot quickly. Using standard crystals at 20-25k you will also hit cruisers without too much trouble.

Not only do snipe setups have weak damage, they also make it an ordeal having to warp out/in to get the can, a ridiculous exercise when most of the time it's junk.

Hope that helps.


 

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