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Anjerrai Meloanis
Minmatar
FLA5HY RED
The Defenders of Pen Island
Posted - 2005.10.10 12:44:00 - [1]
 

Simply give the other's 10% bonus dmg per level rather than 5%..

The Manticore would still do slightly more damage, but i understand its fairly tricky to fit the third launcher right? All the other races can fit two with no problems..

Opinions? Smile

Kyoko Sakoda
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2005.10.10 12:48:00 - [2]
 

Sure, why not?

Still should unnerf the bomber warp cap use and speed though. Cool

Kerby Lane
ZER0.
IT Alliance
Posted - 2005.10.10 13:09:00 - [3]
 

agreed.

Right now I see no point to use any bomber bar Manticore and won`t use one unless train Caldary 5 on my covert ops alt.

Darmed Khan
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2005.10.10 13:10:00 - [4]
 

Actually the manticore is easy to fit, since the powergrid bonuses it gets are better than those advertised Crying or Very sad

Stratego
Ad Infernum
Posted - 2005.10.10 13:10:00 - [5]
 

This is being discussed in the stealth bombers threaed allready.

Ghoest
Posted - 2005.10.10 13:14:00 - [6]
 

Or you could just train Caldari frig 5

Vader Crane
Minmatar
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2005.10.10 13:17:00 - [7]
 

i love my hound :o

Anjerrai Meloanis
Minmatar
FLA5HY RED
The Defenders of Pen Island
Posted - 2005.10.10 13:57:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Ghoest
Or you could just train Caldari frig 5


Yes, lets all fly the Manticore... ****

loxxx
Posted - 2005.10.10 14:23:00 - [9]
 

OMGPLZWTF caldari acctually has 1 ship that is better than others??!?!?!?!1
how can that be? NERF IT!!11
Maybe theres a reason that manticore is better than other bombers? Maybe caldari specializes in missiles? plz think before you start whining. Its not like manticore has best mass, speed, defences, agility etc.

jbob2000
Gallente
Degenerate...
Posted - 2005.10.10 14:29:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: loxxx
OMGPLZWTF caldari acctually has 1 ship that is better than others??!?!?!?!1
how can that be? NERF IT!!11
Maybe theres a reason that manticore is better than other bombers? Maybe caldari specializes in missiles? plz think before you start whining. Its not like manticore has best mass, speed, defences, agility etc.


Its not that, it's the fact that there is NO point in using the other stealth bombers because the manticore just do it so much better and it's not alot of training to use it.

Carter83
Posted - 2005.10.10 14:32:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: loxxx
OMGPLZWTF caldari acctually has 1 ship that is better than others??!?!?!?!1
how can that be? NERF IT!!11
Maybe theres a reason that manticore is better than other bombers? Maybe caldari specializes in missiles? plz think before you start whining. Its not like manticore has best mass, speed, defences, agility etc.


I dont think people were really complaining about the Manticore it is caldari it has an extra launcher slot and the furthest range. Whats the point in the other stealth bombers if you can do better using a manticore.

I think stealth bombers such as the hound should replace one of the bonuses with a faster lock down and ROF as it is the shortest ranged bomber in all the races. Similar bonuses to other race bombers. Currently the only thing that sets the ships apart are speed and range.

loxxx
Posted - 2005.10.10 14:37:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: jbob2000
Originally by: loxxx
OMGPLZWTF caldari acctually has 1 ship that is better than others??!?!?!?!1
how can that be? NERF IT!!11
Maybe theres a reason that manticore is better than other bombers? Maybe caldari specializes in missiles? plz think before you start whining. Its not like manticore has best mass, speed, defences, agility etc.


Its not that, it's the fact that there is NO point in using the other stealth bombers because the manticore just do it so much better and it's not alot of training to use it.


IŽd train for gallente if i wanted best damage ceptor, iŽd train for minimatar if i wanted best instakills sniping BS etc. If i want best bomber then id train for caldari. Simple as that. Currently i dont even have decent missile skills or caldari frig 5.

loxxx
Posted - 2005.10.10 14:39:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Carter83
Originally by: loxxx
OMGPLZWTF caldari acctually has 1 ship that is better than others??!?!?!?!1
how can that be? NERF IT!!11
Maybe theres a reason that manticore is better than other bombers? Maybe caldari specializes in missiles? plz think before you start whining. Its not like manticore has best mass, speed, defences, agility etc.


I dont think people were really complaining about the Manticore it is caldari it has an extra launcher slot and the furthest range. Whats the point in the other stealth bombers if you can do better using a manticore.

I think stealth bombers such as the hound should replace one of the bonuses with a faster lock down and ROF as it is the shortest ranged bomber in all the races. Similar bonuses to other race bombers. Currently the only thing that sets the ships apart are speed and range.


whats the point using caldari hac-s? All other hacs are better. Whats the point using caldari BS-s in fleet battle? All others have better instadamage. (tho scorp has some uses until it gets killed in 1st 10 seconds).

Anjerrai Meloanis
Minmatar
FLA5HY RED
The Defenders of Pen Island
Posted - 2005.10.10 16:07:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Anjerrai Meloanis on 10/10/2005 16:13:33
loxxx, let me give you some advice...

First read my post, then read it again, then again until you have actually read it this time?

Where am I whining? In fact it is you that is whining about others wanting to make the other bombers useful..

In fact this is blatantly obvious that you use a Manticore, but the thing is if these changes came in to boost the others "slightly" the Manticore would drop in price due to less demand..

By your definition all the other races ships should suck compared to the Manticore just because Caldari use missiles?

So i implore you, read my post, read it again, and stop trolling/whining yourself.. Oh, and using alt's to flame and whine on forums is fairly lame..

Thanks

Fuze Rogue
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2005.10.10 16:47:00 - [15]
 

Ok so to those who think the manticore is fine,

i propose you change the megathron so it can fit 11 425 rails and give it a 50% base bonus to hybrid damage...

If you think thats rediculous just think about how overpowered the manticore is VS other frigs and its the same thing.

50% more launchers, 25%-50% extra damage from bonus on top of that ..... just give the others an extra launcher and swap the useless turret bonus for some random missile dmg type and voila, balance.

LoKesh
Amarr
Nex Exercitus
Posted - 2005.10.11 00:04:00 - [16]
 

How to balance it? Don't! When you get to PvP the Caldari specialized ships very often don't stack up against those of the other races.

Technically, the Caldari are the missile race - hence, they have a superior bomber.

(PS - laser suck on my Merlin, can we fix that too?)

patteSatan
freelancers inc
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2005.10.11 00:24:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: patteSatan on 11/10/2005 00:27:02
I think the last poster just won this discussion...
Cool

btw, Im no alt, I'm just too lazy to change my character into showing that I'm a CELT.

Kerby Lane
ZER0.
IT Alliance
Posted - 2005.10.11 01:29:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Kerby Lane on 11/10/2005 01:30:30
Originally by: loxxx

Whats the point using caldari BS-s in fleet battle? All others have better instadamage. (tho scorp has some uses until it gets killed in 1st 10 seconds).


Laughing

So you dont use Scorpions in fleet battles bacause you are scared to loose them ? 8)


WTS Clue and handbook "How to use EW Scorpions".

Weirda
Minmatar
Queens of the Stone Age
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2005.10.11 01:46:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Weirda on 11/10/2005 17:26:11
there is a point to the other bombers. the point is that they are different. while you may argue that they don't do job as well as the manticore - weirda would argue that going 1v1 manticore vs hound, would pick hound every time.

really ppl - fly them before you have an opinion on how they *should* be. weirda think that the amarr one is gimped since it can't feasably fit any of it's lowest calibur weapons (though haven't tried gatling pulse yet... hmmm) along w/the missiles at all... ugh

em is fun though Twisted Evil

Gierling
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2005.10.11 02:44:00 - [20]
 

Assuming no lock penalty (After the unnerfing) the nemesis with two launchers and two blasters just seems cruel.

Ante
DAB
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2005.10.11 02:52:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Gierling
Assuming no lock penalty (After the unnerfing) the nemesis with two launchers and two blasters just seems cruel.


Much like the Hound with 2x t2 autocannons. Pumps out far more damage than any Manticore does. Nerf other bombers? They're faster and can do more damage.

Just leave them alone...

Weirda
Minmatar
Queens of the Stone Age
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2005.10.11 03:44:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Ante
Originally by: Gierling
Assuming no lock penalty (After the unnerfing) the nemesis with two launchers and two blasters just seems cruel.


Much like the Hound with 2x t2 autocannons. Pumps out far more damage than any Manticore does. Nerf other bombers? They're faster and can do more damage.

Just leave them alone...


yay! others see the light! Shocked

ELECTR0FREAK
Eye of God
Posted - 2005.10.11 03:56:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Ghoest
Or you could just train Caldari frig 5


^ Its people like that who royally tick me off. This game is about versatility. Why do you think I've been complaining about the Thorax for the past couple months? Because whenever someone said "My Moa sucks in PVP" someone else would say "Fly a Thorax".

No, the simple fact is the Manticore DOES have a large advantage over the other Stealth Bombers and needs to be drawn even with them. Nerfing the Manticore would make Stealth Bombers in general too crappy (in all seriousness, 3 siege make a huge difference over 2) so for goodness sakes, give the other bombers better damage bonuses if you have to.

theRaptor
Caldari
Tactical Operations
Posted - 2005.10.11 03:58:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Fuze Rogue
Ok so to those who think the manticore is fine,

i propose you change the megathron so it can fit 11 425 rails and give it a 50% base bonus to hybrid damage...



Totally agree. Buff mega please. With the extra four rails I should be able to break 600 DPS with T1 guns.

Laughing

Gierling
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2005.10.11 04:48:00 - [25]
 

Maybe just maybe bombers werent meant to uncloak 100 km away and toss out 2 volleys before warping away.

Maybe they were meant to decloak right next to you and scream "SURPRISE" menacingly before wtfpwning you.

Frankly I'd be surprised if the manticore holds a dps advantage compared to the other bombers within optimal for thier secondary armament.

ELECTR0FREAK
Eye of God
Posted - 2005.10.11 05:16:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Gierling
Maybe just maybe bombers werent meant to uncloak 100 km away and toss out 2 volleys before warping away.

Maybe they were meant to decloak right next to you and scream "SURPRISE" menacingly before wtfpwning you.

Frankly I'd be surprised if the manticore holds a dps advantage compared to the other bombers within optimal for thier secondary armament.


I'd see that possible if Bombers had no recalibration time, OR the resistances of an Assault Ship, but its just too risky atm to do. Maybe after the bomber change, but in all honesty what it comes down to with bombers is burst damage and not DPS. They don't have the survivability to handle more than a couple seconds of combat with most ships, even Tech 1 frigates. In general with a bomber its kill something in that first salvo or be killed.

twit brent
The Scope
Posted - 2005.10.11 05:39:00 - [27]
 

Everyone is saying that caldari ships need the love because they are a missile race. Amarr ships have good lasers because they are missile boats. Minmatar ships have awesome burst damage because they are artillery boats. Gallente ships do awesome dmg close in because they are blaster boats. The manticore does btter damage because its a missile boat. The nemesis should also do good damage because its a missile boat. They are both missile boats they should both do good DMG but the manticore should not be atleast 50% better. As another race im training missile skills that none of my other gallente ships use to use a nemesis. Currently the manticore does 50% more damage which is way to much. it would be much better if other races got the 10% dmg bonus per lvl which would mean the manticore people are still on top. They are all missile boats and are designed to do the exact same thing thing. 25% extra dmg IMO is plenty for missile boats that were desinged for the same role.

ELECTR0FREAK
Eye of God
Posted - 2005.10.11 07:43:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 11/10/2005 07:44:18
Originally by: twit brent
Everyone is saying that caldari ships need the love because they are a missile race. Amarr ships have good lasers because they are missile boats. Minmatar ships have awesome burst damage because they are artillery boats. Gallente ships do awesome dmg close in because they are blaster boats. The manticore does btter damage because its a missile boat. The nemesis should also do good damage because its a missile boat. They are both missile boats they should both do good DMG but the manticore should not be atleast 50% better. As another race im training missile skills that none of my other gallente ships use to use a nemesis. Currently the manticore does 50% more damage which is way to much. it would be much better if other races got the 10% dmg bonus per lvl which would mean the manticore people are still on top. They are all missile boats and are designed to do the exact same thing thing. 25% extra dmg IMO is plenty for missile boats that were desinged for the same role.


The whole flaw behind that arguement is trying to justify something being more powerful in an entire class of ships because that class is missile-oriented is not balancing for the game as a whole. Why? Because it puts one race ahead of the pack overall. Now I'm a Caldari specialist and I don't want to see everyone piling over to Caldari because they have the "Best" ship of the class.

You might as well say give the Gallente the best BS, the Minmatar the best frig, the Caldari the best hauler and the Amarr the best cruiser. Does that make any sense? No. It might LOOK balanced at first but when it comes down to it it really is not. Now, you might argue that the Gallente have the best short range, Amarr the best tank, Minmatar speed, and Caldari the best long range. True, these are attributes of each race, and are incorporated in one or more ways in EACH class of their ships and thus keeps the game balanced.

I'm studying game design to hopefully become a software developer one day, and if there's anything I've learned, its that giving one side a large numerical advantage (health, damage, etc) in any one unit in a game with more than one playing side is going to result in balance problems. What you strive to achieve are equal but different tactical advantages to each side, with more or less equal statistics between units (depending on the tactics used they can vary).

In the case of the Stealth Bombers, the tactics are pretty much focused on firing those cruise launchers at your opponent after uncloaking. Unless the other races have some kind of tactical advantage such as faster recalibration times, more powerful or faster missiles to counter the extra damage that the Manticore has, it's always going to be unbalanced. Removing the recalibration time may result in new tactics opening up for the other ships to actually be able to utilize their turrets in a typical Bomber strike, but that remains to be seen.

Grimwalius d'Antan
Gallente
Posted - 2005.10.11 08:14:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK
I'm studying game design to hopefully become a software developer one day, and if there's anything I've learned, its that giving one side a large numerical advantage (health, damage, etc) in any one unit in a game with more than one playing side is going to result in balance problems. What you strive to achieve are equal but different tactical advantages to each side, with more or less equal statistics between units (depending on the tactics used they can vary).


As Im studying the same thing myself, I know you should know that mirror balancing is a bad thing. Tic Tac Toe is a perfect example of this, either no one wins, or the first player wins. There are 4 races for a reason. They are supposed to be different. Giving the race that generally has better missile bonuses a better missile oriented ship is perfectly logical.

Stealth Bombers are not solo ships. Like most frigs they are group hunters. En Masse, the lacking damage in each individual ship doesn't mean anything. With 3-4 stealth bombers pounding at you, you don't care if they have 2 or 3 launchers each, they are seriously messing up your ship. So, the manticore can deal more damage alone, but as stealth bombers are pretty mediocre on their own, it isn't really a problem in a balancing perspective.

ELECTR0FREAK
Eye of God
Posted - 2005.10.11 08:26:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 11/10/2005 08:33:13

Giving different races altering tactical advantages is NOT mirror balancing. My POINT is that with Stealth Bombers there simply isn't the ability to pursue other viable strategies besides uncloaking a fair ways away, hoping the target doesnt run off immediately, and then slamming as many missiles as possible into it. Having 1 more missile launcher is a huge advantage in that situation.

Now, other ship classes in general are versatile enough that the Caldari can fit more missile launchers without making them overpowered. You don't NEED missiles on the other ships to compete. This is why the Crow isn't the king of Interceptors or the Caracal king of cruisers. The problem where Stealth Bombers are concerned is that they DO need that launcher power. Now if you want to counterbalance increased damage of the Manticore with improvements on the other ships such as increased HP, faster recalibration times etc, you can by all means. This keeps them all on a more or less level playing field. But as it stands the Manticore has an outright statistical advantage in an entire ship class, which no other race can boast. The reason being the specialization and rather specific purpose of the ship.

Edit- Also, I disagree with your statements regarding the tactics of the Manticore. I use mine for solo hunting, not everyone uses them in groups. And when several Stealth Bombers are shooting at you, 50% more damage sure as heck makes a difference, especially when you consider that firing back on them they die rather easily. If a couple Stealth Bombers jump a target larger than a Tech 1 frig, whether or not they have that extra 50% DPS can mean the difference between them breaking the targets tank quickly enough to kill it before it kills one of them or not.

The 3rd launcher on the Manticore is indeed a huge advantage over the other Stealth Bombers. I fly one and totally willing to admit it.


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