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Crellion
Parental Control
Merciless.
Posted - 2006.05.22 18:02:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Danitar
I wish someone would write something this detailed about anti-jamming..you know best ways to prevent it from happening..


(1) In a ship with drone bay : release drones immediatelly when threatened so they auto attack the person jamming you.
(2) In a ship with launchers: use FoF and hope he doesnt deploy drones (for example BBs dont have drones)
(3) Use Nos - Neut to hit him hard b4 he gets jam or during a failed cycle
(4) In an inty: he is agggroed if he is jamming you ... keep bumping him until the cavalry arrives or he misses a cycle.
(5) Use ECM or Nosf drones
(6) THE ULTIMATE ANTI-ECM: Fit your own ECM with 1 sensor booster tech II more than he has (if you can also fit a sensor damp you are golden) In group engagements sometimes sig resolution means BB > Scorpion and Griffin with Gravi racial > BB.

Hope it helps Laughing

Eight Ace
Posted - 2006.05.24 15:17:00 - [62]
 

Apologies if this falls into the thread necromancy category but I have a query.

Is it mathematically possible to have a 100% chance to Jam?

I have just read this excellent 'all about jamming' thread and popped some numbers into excel based on a rook attempting to jam a minmatar ship with a racial jammer.

With maxxed skills in both Rook and ECM the strength of the Jammer, according to Quickfit is 13.5.

Based on the calculation of [Jammer Strength] (divided by) [Target sensor strength] (multiplied by) [100%] the Rook would have a 103% chance of jamming a ship with a sensor strength of 13.

Now, the cynic in me says I either have not read this correctly, have messed up the maths or am simply missing the point. The Rook is a fabulous ship for sure and if I had one I would love it and polish it daily, but am I working these numbers correctly?

-8-

Laboratus
Gallente
Invicta.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2006.05.24 15:56:00 - [63]
 

Sticky this thread plz

Valhalior
Caldari
State Protectorate
Posted - 2006.05.27 18:19:00 - [64]
 

It should be sticky i guess....

Drazin DawnTreader
Cutthroat Mercenary Corp
Posted - 2006.05.27 20:37:00 - [65]
 

I'll probably end up looking stupid, but whatever.

I put a racial jammer and small Nos on a Rifter and could leave it running indefinetly. I was able to jam my friends cruisers pretty much every cycle. Only failing occasionally.

Is there any relation to a ships Signature radius vs Jamming chance?

Would I be a total fool for putting 3 small NOS and a missile bay on an Interceptor and then run my Jammer and a WarpScram to ensure I had the Cap to keep everything running and the target ship completly locked down for my friends to destroy?

I'm kind of new really... was just wondering.

Ryysa
Mission Fail
Posted - 2006.06.08 23:23:00 - [66]
 

Edited by: Ryysa on 08/06/2006 23:26:11
Originally by: Eight Ace
Apologies if this falls into the thread necromancy category but I have a query.

Is it mathematically possible to have a 100% chance to Jam?

I have just read this excellent 'all about jamming' thread and popped some numbers into excel based on a rook attempting to jam a minmatar ship with a racial jammer.

With maxxed skills in both Rook and ECM the strength of the Jammer, according to Quickfit is 13.5.

Based on the calculation of [Jammer Strength] (divided by) [Target sensor strength] (multiplied by) [100%] the Rook would have a 103% chance of jamming a ship with a sensor strength of 13.

Now, the cynic in me says I either have not read this correctly, have messed up the maths or am simply missing the point. The Rook is a fabulous ship for sure and if I had one I would love it and polish it daily, but am I working these numbers correctly?

-8-


Yes, you are... and yes, it's possible to have 100% jams.
You don't need a rook for it, just use a racial jammer with skills on an interceptor. Same result. 100% jammed.

About the formula, i'll fix it once i get around to it... probably tomorrow, haven't had time for this thread in a bit :)

Originally by: Drazin DawnTreader
I'll probably end up looking stupid, but whatever.

I put a racial jammer and small Nos on a Rifter and could leave it running indefinetly. I was able to jam my friends cruisers pretty much every cycle. Only failing occasionally.

Is there any relation to a ships Signature radius vs Jamming chance?

Would I be a total fool for putting 3 small NOS and a missile bay on an Interceptor and then run my Jammer and a WarpScram to ensure I had the Cap to keep everything running and the target ship completly locked down for my friends to destroy?

I'm kind of new really... was just wondering.

Jamming has nothing to do with signature radiuses etc etc, it's just about being in range and about your jammer strength vs the enemy ships sensor strength.
About the second part of your question, meet my stiletto:
2x 150 II, nos, mwd, 2x scrams (7.5 and 20), racial ecm, small rep II, mapc, plate.
That'd be a definite "yes". Keeping your target jammed + scrammed is very good. Stiletto is an exceptional tackler, but i believe, a merlin with loads of nos crammed in would do just as well... or the new jaguar :)

Krelic Gecko
Posted - 2006.06.13 11:25:00 - [67]
 

It might be just me but i sure notice that my ability to jam is decreased greatly at close range, any math to why this is?

Ryysa
Mission Fail
Posted - 2006.07.03 21:40:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Krelic Gecko
It might be just me but i sure notice that my ability to jam is decreased greatly at close range, any math to why this is?

It's a rumour that is being spread around.

It is not true, jamming works just as well from 0 to the optimal. Close range or long range.

I've tested it extensively and when done a statistical analysis over 400+ cycles, close and far it does not deviate.

Hammer dahn
Posted - 2006.11.07 17:30:00 - [69]
 

exellent guide Ryysa! (just the maths part is a bit confusing, which is normal)
i m flying only ECM ships like bb, scorp, falcon, rook.. for long time (with my main)and i have max skils on sinal dispersion, caldary bs and recon ships.

But i m still not sure about the best effectif jamming range, coz i m stil getting really different results when i m jamming from my optimal range or between 0-15 km.. i m easily jamming any bs's (which is not using eccm), with in my optimal and (my optimal-accuracy falloff) for ex: if ur optimal is 70 and accuracy falloff is 30 it gives :a distance between 70 and 40km.
so when enemy gang jump on us, as im at my best distance i manage to jamm up to 3-4 bs in a scorp or falcon. but when we jump on the enemy fleet which is really close range combat, its more difficult to jamm the enemy bs at least more then 2..
i was thinkin (before reading u r post, that the best jamming range was :
between (optimal+accuracy fall off) and (optimal - accuracy fall off)

i didnt experienced it 1000 times with practicing but i experienced it on PvP mostly, and i was much more effetive at that range then o-15 even around 0-30 with ratials.
but according to ur post its just a coinsidence!! and the optimal range is, for a T2 multispectral (for exemple) without any skills will be 0-36 not just 36km; so best range ll be between 0-36 then u can try upto 36+18(acc falloff)=54 km but u ll get less chance between 36 and 54 then 0-36, m i right?

and i have a second question, soemtimes i dont see the jamming count-down while i mjamming the target, i only see the jamming bar and a text "DONE" flashing a few times inside, then every thing dissapear, but the target stay jammed as every thing is normal. i only understand that the target is not jammed anymore when he start to target me.
when i change the computer its not happening anymore.. i reinstalled the game many times..but its still same, is that happened to any1 else??

best regards

Nicocat
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.07 17:38:00 - [70]
 

Necromancy is a dark, dark art frowned upon by the Lord God. You, good sir, are going to Hell!

ElCholo
Minmatar
BURN EDEN
Posted - 2006.11.09 18:20:00 - [71]
 

Edited by: ElCholo on 10/11/2006 01:40:24
My rook:

Highs - 5x hvy launcher2 / med dim nos (in the off chance anything gets in range and cloak kills sig res.

Mids Cap rechargerII (rook cap sucks) 4x racial t2 (1 ea) 2x multis

warded grav eccm / PDU2

Jam str on racials with skills bonuses is ~ 11.59
range on jammers 129km, forget falloff :/
sensor str 47 - jam this :P

DuPuy
Scrap Iron Flotilla
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.12.20 06:10:00 - [72]
 

(BUMP)

Be great to see an update for this after the Revelations ECM nerf Confused

Ra Tzu
Posted - 2006.12.22 01:06:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: DuPuy
(BUMP)

Be great to see an update for this after the Revelations ECM nerf Confused


[Signed]

Ryysa
Mission Fail
Posted - 2006.12.22 01:27:00 - [74]
 

Edited by: Ryysa on 22/12/2006 01:39:02
Originally by: Hammer dahn
if ur optimal is 70 and accuracy falloff is 30 it gives :a distance between 70 and 40km

Wrong.

If your optimal is 70km that means your jamming efficiency is not affected from 0-70km and at 110km(70+40) your jamming efficiency is halved.

Originally by: Hammer dahn
so when enemy gang jump on us, as im at my best distance i manage to jamm up to 3-4 bs in a scorp or falcon. but when we jump on the enemy fleet which is really close range combat, its more difficult to jamm the enemy bs at least more then 2..

It doesn't matter, as long as it's in your optimal range, which is 70km it's the same chance.
Originally by: Hammer dahn
but u ll get less chance between 36 and 54 then 0-36, m i right?

You are wrong.

Originally by: Hammer dahn
and i have a second question, soemtimes i dont see the jamming count-down while i mjamming the target, i only see the jamming bar and a text "DONE" flashing a few times inside, then every thing dissapear, but the target stay jammed as every thing is normal. i only understand that the target is not jammed anymore when he start to target me.
when i change the computer its not happening anymore.. i reinstalled the game many times..but its still same, is that happened to any1 else??

yes.

Originally by: DuPuy
(BUMP)
Be great to see an update for this after the Revelations ECM nerf Confused


Not much to update, the system is pretty much the same, I probably should clear the formulas up a bit.

Edit:
I've looked through the guide, the only thing that needs adjusting are the ship bonuses and the default sensor strengths of stuff. That's not the point of the guide, the point is to show how the math works.
I'll update it if/when i get time, the formulas and the math is correct, so just use the values from revelations for sensor strengths to calculate (i should probably make a small cgi/php script to help people out... but ... later...).

Laboratus
Gallente
Invicta.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2006.12.22 12:58:00 - [75]
 

Edited by: Laboratus on 22/12/2006 12:59:48
The way you way the formula calculates the succes of multiple jammers is rather heavy, and with a lot of subphases the propability of making mistakes increases. So here is a simpler formula. With a lot of explanation on why it works like this.
P is for the propability of an event.
AP is everything but P (1-P). That makes 1-AP=P. This is 1-(1-p)=p,
Propability for a repeated succes of P is P^N, where N is the number of iterations.
Hence for repeated AP... AP^N
So,
for someone to be jammed (P), it takes only one succes, but for someone not to be jammed(AP), you need AP to happen on every attempt. So

Propability for P happening at least once in a set of iterations hence is 1-AP^N
1-(1-P)^N

Ok, that was the easy way.
Now the hard way.
with 1 iteration you have only 2 scenarios. True or false.
1 or 0
with 2 iterations you have True true, true false, false true and false false
1,1 or 1,0 or 0,1 or 0,0

With 3 iterations you have
1,1,1 or 1,1,0 or 1,0,0 etc etc.

When you calculate that from a group of iterations you have 1 right, two right, three right etc you have to take into account that there are different combinations of which was true and which was false and multiply each of the propabilities with the right multipliers. Hence the chance for error is great. There are tables for this, ofc, but it's a pain, so I usually stick with the shorter and ligher formula.
A bit in a hurry, but I guess this explains how it works.

Great work on the guide, keep up the good work.


Talasan
The Micky Mouse Mafia
Posted - 2006.12.22 13:02:00 - [76]
 

Guide to jamming?






CLICK WIN? Very Happy



Ryysa
Mission Fail
Posted - 2007.01.12 02:58:00 - [77]
 

Edited by: Ryysa on 12/01/2007 02:55:24
Originally by: Laboratus
stuff


Originally by: Ryysa
Ofcourse there is a way to do this much easier, but it's less illustrated...
0 Jammers of 5 hit: 5C0 * 0.21^0 * 0.79^5 = 0.31
Opposite chance, 1-0.31 = 0.69, which is 69% and is approximately the same as 70%,


As you can see, i pointed that out.
Since it's always C0 if you just want the target jammed/not jammed chance and it's always more than 0 jams that have to succeed for the target to not be jammed (as you take the opposite chance), what you wrote is easily derived from what i wrote a long time ago ;)

Although, you did show it in formula form, but it's nothing that wasn't there before.

The difference is, that I showed how it works on a deeper level, i.e. How to calculate the chance that out of 5 jammers 3 hit and 2 miss, etc.

Thanks for giving out the derived formula though, for those who are too lazy to read through all my ramblings above ^_^

Audri Fisher
Caldari
Burning Bush Enterprises
Posted - 2007.01.12 03:09:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Talasan
Guide to jamming?






CLICK WIN? Very Happy




use dampners.

Ryysa
Mission Fail
Posted - 2007.01.16 15:57:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Audri Fisher
Originally by: Talasan
Guide to jamming?






CLICK WIN? Very Happy




use dampners.


Dampners + ECM burst imo.

Grey Area
Caldari
Posted - 2007.04.06 10:44:00 - [80]
 

Ryysa - any info on ECM bursts? Thanks!

Fey'ri
Algo Trading Corp
Posted - 2007.04.24 17:39:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Ryysa
Originally by: DuPuy
Be great to see an update for this after the Revelations ECM nerf Confused


Not much to update, the system is pretty much the same, I probably should clear the formulas up a bit.

Edit:
I've looked through the guide, the only thing that needs adjusting are the ship bonuses and the default sensor strengths of stuff. That's not the point of the guide, the point is to show how the math works.
I'll update it if/when i get time, the formulas and the math is correct, so just use the values from revelations for sensor strengths to calculate (i should probably make a small cgi/php script to help people out... but ... later...).


Great guide. Just for reference I looked up the scan strengths of each ship type post revelations and got the following ranges. (Source 4/24/7)

Assault Ships . . . 10-16
Battlecruisers . . . 16-19
Battleships . . . 17-22
Carriers . . . 68-150
Command Ship . . . 16-19
Covert Ops . . . 17-24
Cruisers . . . 11-20
Destroyers . . . 9-12
Dreadnoughts . . . 39-48
Exhumers . . . 8-10
Frigates . . . 4-17
Heavy Assault Ships . . . 13-18
Industrials . . . 4-13
Interceptors . . . 8-14
Interdictors . . . 9-12
Logistics . . . 17-22
Mining Barge . . . 8-10
Recon Ship . . . 24-32
Titans . . . 200
Transport Ships . . . 12-20

And the strength of ECM jamming modules....

Racial 1 :- 1 non race, 3 racial
Named A :- 1.05 / 3.15 (ie Initiated)
Named B :- 1.1 / 3.3 (ie Induced)
Named C :- 1.15 / 3.45 (ie Compulsive)
Named D :- 1.2 / 3.6 (ie Hypnos)
Racial 2 :- 1.2 / 3.6

Multispec 1 :- 2
Named A :- 2.1 (ie Initiated)
Named B :- 2.2 (ie Induced)
Named C :- 2.3 (ie Compulsive)
Named D :- 2.4 (ie Hypnos)
Multispec 2 :- 2.4


Ryysa
Mission Fail
Posted - 2007.04.24 17:52:00 - [82]
 

Thank you Fey'ri, just what was needed!
Originally by: Grey Area
Ryysa - any info on ECM bursts? Thanks!

I am aware that I am about a month late here - but sure.

ECM Burst chances are same as with jammers, except their workwise is different. If you use an ECM burst, then everything within it's range has to pass a chance test (same as with jammers), if they fail the test, they lose lock, but can immediately re-lock.

Note, ecm bursts are like smartbombs. They cause aggro, and using them in empire will get you concorded fast.

ECM Bursts are best used on close range ships in combination with dampeners. A ship that is known to employ the Burst+Damps configuration is the pilgrim.

As far as I know, skills don't affect strength of Bursts (?), but ship bonus does(?).

If someone knows better, please correct me on the last sentence, since I might remember wrong.

Kamen
SRBI
Circle-Of-Two
Posted - 2007.04.25 05:04:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Loki Caldaris
....Don't you mean optimal + 2 x falloff?

I hope so.. It still says "optimal + falloff = 0 chance", which I consider wrong unless someone proves me otherwise.

murder one
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2007.04.25 08:03:00 - [84]
 

Thread Necro FTL.

Mangold
Mad Bombers
Guns and Alcohol
Posted - 2007.04.25 15:01:00 - [85]
 

How about ECCMs. They used to give 60% boost to scan strength but when I look at item database they give 80-96. That can't be right, can it? It would make any ship virtually invulnarable to jamming. 3.6 vs 100.

Ryysa
Mission Fail
Posted - 2007.04.25 18:47:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Kamen
Originally by: Loki Caldaris
....Don't you mean optimal + 2 x falloff?

I hope so.. It still says "optimal + falloff = 0 chance", which I consider wrong unless someone proves me otherwise.


hehe, that's one very old typo, i fixed it now.

Originally by: murder one
Thread Necro FTL.

This thread gets "necroed" every 1-2 months, in fact, I don't really consider this necro, since the guide still perfectly applies.

Originally by: Mangold
How about ECCMs. They used to give 60% boost to scan strength but when I look at item database they give 80-96. That can't be right, can it? It would make any ship virtually invulnarable to jamming. 3.6 vs 100.


It is right, sadly. When ECM was nerfed, the ECCM were left at their Pre-Nerfed state. So yeah, fitting ECCM makes you pretty much invulnerable to jamming.

velmistr Ecco
Caldari
InNova Tech Inc
Detrimental Imperative
Posted - 2007.04.25 21:36:00 - [87]
 

Edited by: velmistr Ecco on 25/04/2007 21:37:33
Edited by: velmistr Ecco on 25/04/2007 21:33:05
Originally by: Ryysa
Thank you Fey'ri, just what was needed!
Originally by: Grey Area
Ryysa - any info on ECM bursts? Thanks!

I am aware that I am about a month late here - but sure.

As far as I know, skills don't affect strength of Bursts (?), but ship bonus does(?).

If someone knows better, please correct me on the last sentence, since I might remember wrong.


I just tried best named burts (cetus) on my caracal and strength increased from 7.2 -> 8.4 (or something very similair), range from 6000 -> 8400. When fitted on blackbird and falcon -> it gave suprisingly same results. When fitted on scorpion strength became more than 12 and range more then 15000 m. Rolling Eyes

I have absolutely no idea, how bonuses work :)

P.S. Everything was checked in the station by fitting the same module on different ships (caracal, blackbird, falcon with hypnos SDA, scorpion). My relevant skills: EW 4, SD 4, LDJ 4.

Edit: by range i mean optimal. One more interesting fact was that falloff range was same all the time.

welsh wizard
0utbreak
KrautbreaK
Posted - 2007.04.25 21:59:00 - [88]
 

Edited by: welsh wizard on 25/04/2007 21:58:21
oof, noticed the date on the question i was answering.

Nm then :E

Viceroy Bolloxim
Caldari
Digital Fury Corporation
Digital Renegades
Posted - 2007.04.25 22:05:00 - [89]
 

ok I just equipped my falcon with t2 racials, only to find out that named t1 modules seriously outclass them.

come on.. wth! I thought t2 were always slightly more powerful at the cost of more fitting or more usage.. to actually be on par with a t1 PLUS suffer 50% usage lost and 50% more cpu requirement.

CCP can you please address this travesity !!! takes more skill to use t2, yet you kick me in the nutz for the gain...

even if its a 3.75/1.3/1.3/1.3 benefit, at least there would be a plus to the t2 for the extra drain.

cheers

-bollo

velmistr Ecco
Caldari
InNova Tech Inc
Detrimental Imperative
Posted - 2007.04.26 07:54:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Viceroy Bolloxim
ok I just equipped my falcon with t2 racials, only to find out that named t1 modules seriously outclass them.
-bollo


It is absolutelly ok that best named ecms are as strong as t2 whilst having less cap usage. It is just because that you can't produce them just find in drop or so.

Stop whinning start playing Twisted Evil.


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