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Erotic Irony
0bsession
Posted - 2006.01.23 04:04:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Pojo
Another quick question lets say two bad guys are attacking you. One of them jams you so you start the 20's timeout, during that time can you lock the other guy or does this kill your lockon capability completely?

Neutral


The latter.

Mangus Thermopyle
Divine Retribution
Daisho Syndicate
Posted - 2006.01.23 09:20:00 - [32]
 

Nice guide!

I would recommend that you turn off autorepeat on the jammers (right click and choose first menu option). That way, you dont need to turn off any jammers, they only last for the time of one jamming anyway, and once they arent green you can reclick them.

Ryysa
Mission Fail
Posted - 2006.02.15 09:00:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Mangus Thermopyle
Nice guide!

I would recommend that you turn off autorepeat on the jammers (right click and choose first menu option). That way, you dont need to turn off any jammers, they only last for the time of one jamming anyway, and once they arent green you can reclick them.

What he said...

I prefer clicking twice tho, then they are red, and when the red wears off i pay more attention to it...
But it's probably just my laziness =)

Sincere MarkXIII
Posted - 2006.02.15 09:47:00 - [34]
 

I understand your math, it makes perfect sense, but a quick test contradicts it, :(;

In your example applying bernoulli you jammed a ferox with no extra skills trained from a ship that has no boni to effectiveness of jamming

you got a total of 70 %, fourth jammer giving already negligable effects.

I did two tests, using three multispecs on a cyclone , and tried to see what i got in reality
after ten cycles of 3 multispec : 40 % chance
after 20 cycles: 45 %


needless to say i was severely dissapointed.

Any idea why ? maybe i got unlucky.

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2006.02.15 10:07:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Sincere MarkXIII
you got a total of 70 %, fourth jammer giving already negligable effects.

Each jammer adds the same effect, it's not reduced by any kind of stacking penalty.

The cyclone has a sensor strength of 16. using a multispectral on it has a chance of 4/16 before skills. We take the chance of it NOT jamming and multiply it out, then take it away from 1. The chance of it not jamming is (16-4)/16, which is 12/16, which is 0.75.
1 jammer: 1 - ( 0.75 ) = 0.25 = 25%
2 jammer: 1 - ( 0.75 * 0.75 ) = 0.4375 = 43.75%
3 jammer: 1 - ( 0.75 * 0.75 * 0.75 ) = 0.578125 = 57.8125%
4 jammer: 1 - ( 0.75 * 0.75 * 0.75 * 0.75 ) = 0.68359375 = 68.359375%
5 jammer: 1 - ( 0.75 * 0.75 * 0.75 *0.75 * 0.75 ) = 0.7626953125 = 76.26953125%

So the chance is just over 57% using three multispecitrals on a sensor-strength 16 Cyclone. Also, 10 or 20 cycles is not a large enough range for the results to be considered statistically significant.

Sincere MarkXIII
Posted - 2006.02.15 10:39:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Sincere MarkXIII on 15/02/2006 10:39:24
yep, got unlucky ^^

ill try running a prolonged test 100 cycles or so.

Erica Lance
Posted - 2006.02.15 10:43:00 - [37]
 

Diden't fully understand part 4 Embarassed

If you try to jam a ship, and it fails. Would a adding a secound jammer increase the chance to jam, even if its any amounts of time into the cycle of the first jammerQuestion

Danitar
H A V O C
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2006.02.15 19:09:00 - [38]
 

I wish someone would write something this detailed about anti-jamming..you know best ways to prevent it from happening..

Imhotep Khem
Minmatar
Doom Guard
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2006.03.01 20:44:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Imhotep Khem on 01/03/2006 20:45:55
Originally by: ookke
A little comparison:

ecm - multispectral jammer ii vs. 'hypnos' multispectral ecm i

optimal/falloff: 36/18km vs. 36/18km
jamming strength: 4.8 vs. 4.8
activation cost: 132 vs. 96(!!)
skill reqs: EW IV, electronics I vs. EW I, electronics I

You will see the same difference on the racial jammers too, why on earth is best named t1 better than t2?





Im no EW expert but I know in many cases this is because advanced skills only affect the T2 modules. Such as with T2 guns and related skills and T2 target painter and related skills, etcetera.

This is an excellent thread that should be stickied for sure. Also should make its way into the manual as anyone reading the manual is looking for hard core details like this.

Imhotep Khem
Minmatar
Doom Guard
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2006.03.01 21:40:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Ryysa
Edited by: Ryysa on 28/09/2005 19:05:09

Part 5 (the nerd part, skip if u wish):

From the math probability theory...
If we have an experiment that can only have two outcomes (a positive, and a negative one) while the chance of the outcomes is always fixed, Bernoulli's formula applies.
Example: What is the chance to jam a ferox with 5 T1 multispectral jammers on a blackbird without any additional skills?
Individual chance per jammer: 4/19 * 100% = 21.05%
The total jamming chance (let's use 21% for convenience):
1 Jammer of 5 hits: 5C1 * 0.21^1 * 0.79^4 = 0.41
2 Jammers of 5 hit: 5C2 * 0.21^2 * 0.79^3 = 0.22
3 Jammers of 5 hit: 5C3 * 0.21^3 * 0.79^2 = 0.06
4 Jammers of 5 hit: 5C4 * 0.21^4 * 0.79^1 = 0.01
5 Jammers of 5 hit: 5C5 * 0.21^5 * 0.79^0 = insignificant
Which would make a total of 70%, as we are interested in options where from 1 of 5 to 5 of 5 jammers hit.
Ofcourse there is a way to do this much easier, but it's less illustrated...
0 Jammers of 5 hit: 5C0 * 0.21^0 * 0.79^5 = 0.31
Opposite chance, 1-0.31 = 0.69, which is 69% and is approximately the same as 70%, previously 70% was achieved due to a lot of rounding upwards
I'd say that 30% chance of not being jammed with 5 multis is pretty good =p


I was going to question the answers here but now I assume my question would be tied to the "5C1,5C2,5C3" etc., missing values.


I was looking at probability and they introduced the Monty Hall problem to me. Immediately I though it looked like something was missing. And Its the same thing that I thougth was missing from above.

What I did was calculate
1 of 3
2 of 3
3 of 3

Then expected the total from those to equal
0 of 3

But that is wrong. What I needed to do was
1 of 3
1 of 3
1 of 3
2 of 3
2 of 3
2 of 3
3 of 3

because either of the 3 modules could hit while the other 2 missed. So I guess 5C3 means 'combination'. Just tryin to get some clarity for those that like to do a bit of math to get the full understanding.

Recluse XXX
Lightsbane Corp
Posted - 2006.03.01 21:47:00 - [41]
 

Lots of math and smartguy stuff in this tread when its really very simple.

1. Buy jammer
2. fit jammer to ship
3. find hostile
4. jam
5. Say you are my ***** in local
6. ransom/or just kill depending on you line of proffesion
7. rince and repeat

//Rec

---------------

Hoshi
Hedron Industries
Red Dwarf Racketeering Division
Posted - 2006.03.01 21:50:00 - [42]
 

Based on my testing your description of how falloff works is wrong.

Falloff does not lower jamming strength instead it adds a to-hit chance. At optimal + falloff you have 50% of the module hitting, if it does hit you then have normal chanced based jamming roll, if it doesn't hit it will never get a chance to try to jam.

In practice this makes very little difference from affecting jamming strength, in most cases the effective % chance to jam will be the same. The only time you will see a practical difference is when your jamming strength is more than target sensor strength.

Example: Jamming strength 12 vs. sensor strength 10. Within optimal 100% jamming chance. At optimal + falloff using your math we would have 6/10 or 60% chance to jam but in reality we have first a 50% chance to hit, if hit a 100% chance to jam so 50% effective jamming chance.

Or the worst case scenario. 12 jamming vs 6 sensor. Your math 100% jamming chance, in reality 50% chance.

Ryysa
Mission Fail
Posted - 2006.03.01 22:20:00 - [43]
 

well, yes, 5C3 is combinations, you can also mark it C(5,3)....

It's pure math theory of combinatorics/probability (statistics), nothing more nothing less.

Also, T2 jammers don't get affected by any skills, best named are better...
This SUCKS majorly, and needs getting looked at imo ;)

Hanover
Posted - 2006.03.01 23:25:00 - [44]
 

do the ECM drones work the same way?

the medium ECM drones have a signal strength of 1.5, I assume this makes them pretty much worthless to jam anything bigger than a frigate

even the heavy ECM drones are only strength 2, so a ship with a sensor strength of 20, that seems hardly worth using

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2006.03.01 23:33:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Hanover
do the ECM drones work the same way?

the medium ECM drones have a signal strength of 1.5, I assume this makes them pretty much worthless to jam anything bigger than a frigate

even the heavy ECM drones are only strength 2, so a ship with a sensor strength of 20, that seems hardly worth using


A strength 2 drone against a 20 strength ship is a chance of 1/10. five chances of 1/10 gives:
1-(0.9*0.9*0.9*0.9*0.9) = 0.40951, which means you have a 40% chance to jam.

That makes 5 Strength 2 drones equivalent to a single 40% chance, being a single jammer of strength 8. So a full set of drones is better than a racial jammer before skills. Sounds good to me!

Ryysa
Mission Fail
Posted - 2006.03.03 01:00:00 - [46]
 

indeed, ECM drones are fairly useful....
But if you have some decent EW skills, then a single jammer will be always better than a bunch of drones :P

Ryysa
Mission Fail
Posted - 2006.03.03 01:02:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Ryysa on 03/03/2006 01:08:37
Originally by: Hoshi
Based on my testing your description of how falloff works is wrong.

Falloff does not lower jamming strength instead it adds a to-hit chance. At optimal + falloff you have 50% of the module hitting, if it does hit you then have normal chanced based jamming roll, if it doesn't hit it will never get a chance to try to jam.


Please read my description again, and realise that it's the same...
If you have 50% jamming chance, and you are in optimal+falloff you get 25% chance...

Who cares how it's applied? you can't test it anyhow, because it's going to be all the same...

Originally by: Erica Lance
Diden't fully understand part 4 Embarassed

If you try to jam a ship, and it fails. Would a adding a secound jammer increase the chance to jam, even if its any amounts of time into the cycle of the first jammerQuestion

No... every jammer has an equal chance...
When you activate something doesn't matter, the reason why you don't activate all at once is, that you could jam your current target with just 1 jammer...
And use the others for someone else meanwhile... If you put all jammers on one target, then well, sometimes it will be "overkill" meaning the 1st jammer will jam it already and you are wasting the rest of your jammers.

Originally by: Danitar
I wish someone would write something this detailed about anti-jamming..you know best ways to prevent it from happening..

Use your logic...
Staying out of multispectral optimal, and using backups helps ;)

Hoshi
Hedron Industries
Red Dwarf Racketeering Division
Posted - 2006.03.03 11:58:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Ryysa
Edited by: Ryysa on 03/03/2006 01:08:37
Originally by: Hoshi
Based on my testing your description of how falloff works is wrong.

Falloff does not lower jamming strength instead it adds a to-hit chance. At optimal + falloff you have 50% of the module hitting, if it does hit you then have normal chanced based jamming roll, if it doesn't hit it will never get a chance to try to jam.


Please read my description again, and realise that it's the same...
If you have 50% jamming chance, and you are in optimal+falloff you get 25% chance...

Who cares how it's applied? you can't test it anyhow, because it's going to be all the same...


Can you please read the whole thing next time...
I said it was the same for most cases but I also gave you examples of cases where it's not the same, not even close to the same (50% vs 100% jamming chance). And I have tested those cases.

Kaiu Arith
Posted - 2006.03.04 20:27:00 - [49]
 

Simple Question.

Do ECM Multi's stack...YES...or...NO ?

I.E if i have:

1 x target and 3 x multi's

Should if put them all on the target at the same time is it 3 x the chance to jam the target or not?

From reading this thread i believe i do not...however someone please clear this up.

Also this is post RMR yes?

thanks! Very Happy

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2006.03.04 20:35:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Ryysa
indeed, ECM drones are fairly useful....
But if you have some decent EW skills, then a single jammer will be always better than a bunch of drones :P

Every little helps! :D

Ryysa
Mission Fail
Posted - 2006.03.06 16:25:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Ryysa on 06/03/2006 16:38:41
Originally by: Kaiu Arith
Simple Question.

Do ECM Multi's stack...YES...or...NO ?

I.E if i have:

1 x target and 3 x multi's

Should if put them all on the target at the same time is it 3 x the chance to jam the target or not?

From reading this thread i believe i do not...however someone please clear this up.

Also this is post RMR yes?

thanks! Very Happy


This is post RMR, and please read the entire thing, before asking questions which have been already answered in the guide...

@ Hoshi, my math was correct, the way i explained it was not ;)

MegabitOne
Caldari
The Black Ops
Posted - 2006.03.09 17:22:00 - [52]
 

What is also nice is having a couple of nosferatu's fitted: jam + nos your targets:
1. they can't lock you, so can't fire (except for drones and FoF's of course)
2. you're eating their cap so they have less cap to start with once your jammers fail
3. the cap you loose because of the jammer usage is replenished by their cap, hehe

Works like a charm on multiple bogeys: use one's cap to kill the other one!

Ryysa
Mission Fail
Posted - 2006.03.14 13:07:00 - [53]
 

If you are not using a scorp, sure...

If you are in NOS range of your targets in a scorp, you are doing something /very/ wrong.

Da Ram
Posted - 2006.03.14 17:56:00 - [54]
 

5 x medium EW drones can jam a Thanatos within 20 seconds, sometimes faster .

Any idea why ?

Is it OK from your point of view ?

Thanks for any check or help on that,
Ram

Ryysa
Mission Fail
Posted - 2006.04.02 01:20:00 - [55]
 

haven't really tried EW drones...
But an ew drone can theoretically jam anything...
Hell theoretically you can jam anything with any jammer with any skills, it's just unlikely...
But due to the whole thing being chance based stupid situations happen.

EW is getting an overhaul soon anyway, so this thread will be outdated, but that's all soon(tm).

Stella Minnie
Posted - 2006.04.29 12:28:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: Stella Minnie on 29/04/2006 12:27:59

Ryysa
Mission Fail
Posted - 2006.04.29 12:28:00 - [57]
 

I had contact with some EW drones.

5 of them medium things managed to jam my raven a lot more than i'd have liked.

Lowa
Gallente
North Star Networks
The Kadeshi
Posted - 2006.05.03 21:22:00 - [58]
 

Good stuff in here Ryysa. GJ!

But I tend to agree with someone experiencing lower rate
of success at short ranges. My experience tells me that
I get better results around 50-70km than around 15-40 and 80-130.
I know, I cant prove it but its just this sneaky feeling.


Cheers,
LOWA

Ryysa
Mission Fail
Posted - 2006.05.05 02:14:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Lowa
Good stuff in here Ryysa. GJ!

But I tend to agree with someone experiencing lower rate
of success at short ranges. My experience tells me that
I get better results around 50-70km than around 15-40 and 80-130.
I know, I cant prove it but its just this sneaky feeling.


Cheers,
LOWA


Must be a sneaky feeling... I've tested it loads and loads of times...
I can fail 10 cycles at 120km or i can fail them at 5km (150 or something optimal on my racials).
It doesn't Laughing, purely about luck...

However if you would like to investigate this matter, i recommend you get a lot of time, and do a statistical analysis let's say over 1000 cycles, it will only take you about 5 and a half hours and should give fairly decent statistical data. LaughingLaughingLaughing

Loki Caldaris
Posted - 2006.05.22 17:40:00 - [60]
 

Edited by: Loki Caldaris on 22/05/2006 17:43:20
Originally by: Ryysa
Edited by: Ryysa on 06/03/2006 16:39:09
Part 2:
As you probably noticed, jammers now also have an optimal range and a falloff range (both of which can be increased by skills, but more to that later on).
The falloff works pretty much the same as the falloff of the guns.
For example: Let's say you have an optimal range of 100km and a falloff range of 30km on your jammer. This means that at a range of 130km your jammer will only hit 50% of the time. At 160+ km it will not hit at all....
Here is a formula to calculate jamming chance, taking in account the optimal and the falloff range.
Taking the previous formula into account:
Quote:
[[Jammer Strength] (divided by) [Target sensor strength] (multiplied by) [100%]] (multiplied by) [[[Falloff*2] - [[Range to target] - [Optimal]]] / [Falloff*2]]

Note that this formula ONLY applies if the target is within the falloff range, if it's inside optimal range, then you can use the first formula, and if it's outside optimal+falloff, the chance is automatically 0.
Don't you mean optimal + 2 x falloff?
Originally by: Ryysa
(Yes, i know i could have abs() and sgn() in that formula, but why make things too complicated...)
This formula applied to a Ferox with a sensor strength of 19, which is 130km from the jammer, being jammed with a multi, which has an optimal range of 100km, a falloff range of 30km and a jamming strength of 4 shows the following:
Quote:
(4/19)*100% * (30*2 - (130-100))/(30*2)) = 10.52%

Meaning it's only a chance of 10.52% to jam the ferox at that range...

Thx to Hoshi for a slight correction :)
Also... your formula is still incorrect. You need to cap your jamming chance from the first part of the equation at 100%. As Hoshi said.. you can still get >100% which drastically ruins the falloff multiplier at the end.


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