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Ryysa
Mission Fail
Posted - 2005.09.28 18:10:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Ryysa on 09/06/2007 23:23:11
This guide is fairly old. I recommend you check out my new guide instead.
It has cleaner layout, uptodate examples and covers a much broader area of EW.

The math in this guide still applies, except the sensor strengths of the jamming mods have been changed and "damage mods" for jamming modules have been added.
Also, the falloff formula is simplistic and incorrect here.

Original post:
-------------------------------------------------------------

Okay, i'm trying to make a decent guide for jamming, if you feel i am incorrect anywhere, feel free to correct me. And to mods, if this belongs in another section, feel free to move it.

Table of contents:

1. How the jamming works after EW patch.
2. Optimal, falloff, wtf?
3. Skills affecting jammers.
4. Personal recommendations.
5. Probability theory for those who care.
6. Plain ship setups.

Part 1:
When before the EW patch, you only had to stack up enough jammers to go over someone's sensor strength, now it's different... there is a percentage chance of jamming now.
Let's say we have a blackbird with a multispectral jammer (from now one referred to as "Multis"), with a jamming strength of 4 (assume the person has no skills trained whatsoever). He goes up against a ferox (which has a sensor gravimetric sensor strength of 19), his chance to jam the ferox with that one jammer is 4/19 * 100% = 21,1 %
So the formula for calculating the jamming percentage is
Quote:
[Jammer Strength] (divided by) [Target sensor strength] (multiplied by) [100%]

Now let's see what happens if this same ferox gets jammed by a non-named T1 gravimetric jammer (Spatial Destabilizer I) by a person who has no skills to boost the jammer. This jammer would have a jamming strength of 6.
6/19 * 100% = 31.6%
This is conciderably better, however let's see what happens if we jam someone with the wrong racial jammer. T1 non-named Racial jammers (from now on referred to as "Racials") have a jamming strength of 2 towards all sensors, except towards the race's sensors they were designed to jam.
Wrong racial jammer calculation on the ferox:
2/19 * 100% = 10.5%
Conclusion: Racials are more effective, but you must know what you are up against, or just fit racials of every kind. I will cover this more later on in the skills section.

Ryysa
Mission Fail
Posted - 2005.09.28 18:10:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Ryysa on 25/04/2007 18:41:18
Part 2:
As you probably noticed, jammers now also have an optimal range and a falloff range (both of which can be increased by skills, but more to that later on).
The falloff works pretty much the same as the falloff of the guns.
For example: Let's say you have an optimal range of 100km and a falloff range of 30km on your jammer. This means that at a range of 130km your jammer will only hit 50% of the time. At 160+ km it will not hit at all....
Here is a formula to calculate jamming chance, taking in account the optimal and the falloff range.
Taking the previous formula into account:
Quote:
[[Jammer Strength] (divided by) [Target sensor strength] (multiplied by) [100%]] (multiplied by) [[[Falloff*2] - [[Range to target] - [Optimal]]] / [Falloff*2]]

Note that this formula ONLY applies if the target is within the falloff range, if it's inside optimal range, then you can use the first formula, and if it's outside optimal+2xfalloff, the chance is automatically 0. (Yes, i know i could have abs() and sgn() in that formula, but why make things too complicated...)
This formula applied to a Ferox with a sensor strength of 19, which is 130km from the jammer, being jammed with a multi, which has an optimal range of 100km, a falloff range of 30km and a jamming strength of 4 shows the following:
Quote:
(4/19)*100% * (30*2 - (130-100))/(30*2)) = 10.52%

Meaning it's only a chance of 10.52% to jam the ferox at that range...

Thx to Hoshi for a slight correction :)

Ryysa
Mission Fail
Posted - 2005.09.28 18:11:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Ryysa on 28/09/2005 18:38:18

Part 3:
There are multiple skills that affect jamming, i will try list the most obvious ones of them.

  1. Signal Dispersion, rank 5, 5% bonus to all ECM jammer strength per skill level.

  2. Long Distance Jamming, rank 4, 10% bonus to optimal range of ECM, Remote Sensor Dampers, Tracking Disruptors and Target Painters per skill level.

  3. Electronic Warfare, rank 2, 5% less capacitor need for ECM systems per skill level.

  4. Frequency Modulation, rank 3, 10% bonus to falloff for ECM, Remote Sensor Dampeners, Tracking Disruptors and Target Painters per skill level.



There are also various bonuses of different ships, especially the Scorpion, but also the blackbird and the griffin.

  1. Griffin: 20% bonus to Electronic Warfare optimal range per level. (no, it doesn't affect propulsion jammers.)

  2. Blackbird: -5% bonus to ECM Target Jammer capacitor need and 20% bonus to ECM Target Jammer optimal range per skill level.

  3. Scorpion: 5% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength and 20% bonus to ECM Target Jammer optimal range per level.


Examples:
  1. A 'vanilla' blackbird with the person not having signal dispersion skill, jamming a ferox with a T1 non-named multi inside optimal range: 4/19 * 100% = 21.1% jamming chance.

  2. A Scorpion pilot with lvl4 caldari battleship, and lvl4 signal dispersion, jamming a ferox with a T2 Spatial Destabilizer racial jammer:
    10.368/19 * 100% = 54.6% jamming chance

Draw your own conclusions.

Ryysa
Mission Fail
Posted - 2005.09.28 18:12:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Ryysa on 28/09/2005 18:57:02

Part 4.
I've been flying griffins, blackbirds and a scorp for a while now...
And generally i'd recommend using racial jammers over multispectrals.... and ofcourse T2 if you can afford them (they are a must tho).
Racials use less cap and have a longer range than multis. Which is a very big advantage.
Also check market prices, some people sell their 7.2 named racials cheaper than T2 versions of these, which also have 7.2 strength but eat more cap...
The only ship i would use multis on, is a scorp, since it has enough cap to run them, and with decent skills they are actually quite useful...

Okay now because every jammer actually has a fixed chance to jam something, NEVER put more than one jammer at a target cycling... I'll try to explain based on an example...
Let's say we are jamming 3 cruisers with multispectral jammers (to keep it simple)...
And let's also say we're using a scorp with 5 jammers.
Now the first thing we would do, is obviously lock all targets, and then put one jammer on each of them...
Assuming we jammed 2 out of 3 targets, we now use the 2 unused jammers to help the 3 used ones (keeping the 3 cycling all the time, one on each cruiser).
So we add a jammer onto the unjammed ship, let's say it's lucky and still doesn't get jammed, so we add another one...
As soon as it gets jammed, we take off everything but one jammer off the ship we just used 3 for... it's because the jammers will stay on anyway, and next cycle, the 1 jammer that is on it, might be enough, and you might need the rest to help jamming on another cruiser.
I'll make a fraps video at one point of this...

The only difference with racials is that if you have a rack of different ones (i'd use some racials and some multis as backups), you just stick 1 racial on each ship of the right race... and help with the multis.

Ryysa
Mission Fail
Posted - 2005.09.28 18:12:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Ryysa on 28/03/2007 14:31:10
Part 5 (the nerd part, skip if you like):

From the math probability theory...
If we have an experiment that can only have two outcomes (a positive, and a negative one) while the chance of the outcomes is always fixed, Bernoulli's formula applies.

Example: What is the chance to jam a ferox with 5 T1 multispectral jammers on a blackbird without any additional skills?

Individual chance per jammer: 4/19 * 100% = 21.05%

The total jamming chance (let's use 21% for convenience):
1 Jammer of 5 hits: 5C1 * 0.21^1 * 0.79^4 = 0.41
2 Jammers of 5 hit: 5C2 * 0.21^2 * 0.79^3 = 0.22
3 Jammers of 5 hit: 5C3 * 0.21^3 * 0.79^2 = 0.06
4 Jammers of 5 hit: 5C4 * 0.21^4 * 0.79^1 = 0.01
5 Jammers of 5 hit: 5C5 * 0.21^5 * 0.79^0 = insignificant
Which would make a total of 70%, as we are interested in options where from 1 of 5 to 5 of 5 jammers hit.
Ofcourse there is a way to do this much easier, but it's less illustrated...
0 Jammers of 5 hit: 5C0 * 0.21^0 * 0.79^5 = 0.31
Opposite chance, 1-0.31 = 0.69, which is 69% and is approximately the same as 70%, previously 70% was achieved due to a lot of rounding upwards
I'd say that 30% chance of not being jammed with 5 multis is pretty good =p

EDIT:
Derived formula:
Because XC0 (where X is a natural number) is always 1 and any number empowered by 0 is also always 1, we can simplify the previous formula.
Jamming chance: (1-(1-([jammer str]/[sensor str]))^[number of jammers])*100%.
This applied to the previous example would yield: (1-(1-4/19)^5)*100% = 69%

Ryysa
Mission Fail
Posted - 2005.09.28 18:12:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Ryysa on 30/09/2005 11:37:05

Part 6 (Ship Setups! YES!):
Scorp fleet setup:
<Removed to make someone happy :|>

Jamming Blackbird setup:
High: whatever you want
Mid: Sensor booster T2, 4 Racial T2, Multispectral T2
Low: Cap relays? 1600mm plate? RCU?.

Explanation: i recommend warping this thing in at range and a bit after all other ships are in, as it can go boom really fast if a battleship decides to give it a nudge with guns.

Tackling/Jamming Blackbird setup:
High: whatever u want (nosf?)
Mid: 4x Multispectrals / 3x multispectrals + AB, Sensor booster, 20km scrambler.
Low: cap relay? rcu? 1600mm plate?

Any other ship setups are welcome :)
For a griffin, i can't really give you anything, since not a lot of people fly it, and it's really fragile...
The only thing i see it doing is:

High: whatever
Mid: AB/MWD, 20km scram, sensor booster, 1x multispectral.
Low: cap relay

Explanation: can't run this for a long time, but can lock quite fast and catch stuff at gates... and then jam them if it gets lucky... so yeah.... get something for your luck :)

P.S. fl0pski is a nub :D

Blazde
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2005.09.28 19:39:00 - [7]
 

Can we assume this magic only takes into account the highest sensor strength a ship has, and hence there's no advantage of fitting a multi sensor backup array (+2 to all sensors) over the relevant racial backup array (+2 to one sensor)?

fl0pski
Viper-Squad
Triumvirate.
Posted - 2005.09.28 19:46:00 - [8]
 

greetings from #eve-o quakenet \o

HippoKing
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2005.09.28 19:49:00 - [9]
 

very nice. shame there's one on the sticky... Rolling Eyes

Ryysa
Mission Fail
Posted - 2005.09.28 19:59:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Ryysa on 28/09/2005 19:59:45
Originally by: Blazde
Can we assume this magic only takes into account the highest sensor strength a ship has, and hence there's no advantage of fitting a multi sensor backup array (+2 to all sensors) over the relevant racial backup array (+2 to one sensor)?

Yes, only the highest strength counts.
Originally by: HippoKing
very nice. shame there's one on the sticky... Rolling Eyes

Time for a new then... or maybe not.... i don't really mind if it gets stickied...
If it's worthy of a sticky, then i'm happy :)

Turfrider
Reikoku
Posted - 2005.09.29 00:41:00 - [11]
 

nice thread, thanks for putting the effort in.

Kyoko Sakoda
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2005.09.29 00:49:00 - [12]
 

Ah good effort, nice thread Cool

Linia
Gallente
Linia Corp
Posted - 2005.10.27 13:57:00 - [13]
 

Ive just got into bomber and I thought that it might be smart to have such ECM - Multispectral I on it to make enemies loose target so I can cloak and get lively away :)

So Im getting into using one atm, you think its smart?
Ive thought of this setup:

hi:
2 x Cruise Missile Launcher
1 x Improved Cloak Device II

med:
1 x ECM - Multispectral Jammer I or II ?
1/2 x Cap Recharger I
1 x Sensor Booster I / II for long range shooting
maybe another ECM?

low:
1 x Nanofiber
1 x MAPC

Dreez
Destructive Influence
Posted - 2005.11.18 12:42:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Dreez on 18/11/2005 12:43:48

I find it outmost ridicolous that a fully trained scorpionpilot
with topnotch skills in EW will only have just over 50% chanse
of jamming another battleship. Is an utter joke, and needs fixing.
If i spend monts training those skills to max, then id expect
to have atleast 80% chanse of an successful jamming.

Before this "new" EW patch if you were packing enough mods, you
could jam anything with a 100% chanse of success.

For example ive heard people jamming amarr ships using gallante
jammers, WTF is up with that. It should not be frikkin possible to
jam another race with the wrong kind of jammer, even if your skills
are elite. Specific jammer for specific race, of multispectrals for
a wildcard, but greatly reduced chanse of jamming.

I had some cals done and appearently , a pilot with topskills in
anything needed to EW, he has a 65% chanse of jamming the weakest
BS in a sorpion ffs !, 65% aint squat. Not to mention that its only
~46% against another scorpion.

The EW needs lookin into and ajdusted accordingly so that the %
chanse is increased when it comes to racial jammers.

I know that jamming happens alot more in "reality" then it shows
on the paper, but it still needs fixing.

Shidhe
Minmatar
The Babylon5 Consortuim
Posted - 2005.11.18 12:58:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Dreez
Edited by: Dreez on 18/11/2005 12:43:48

I find it outmost ridicolous that a fully trained scorpionpilot
with topnotch skills in EW will only have just over 50% chanse
of jamming another battleship. Is an utter joke, and needs fixing.
If i spend monts training those skills to max, then id expect
to have atleast 80% chanse of an successful jamming.




No it isnt - work out the chances of jamming when you apply several jammers - and a scorp can easily have 5. They all have an independent chance to jam. Any better, and EW would become the proverbial 'I win" button. At the moment, the counter measures to EW are seriously underpowered.

Whoot
Posted - 2005.11.18 13:39:00 - [16]
 

Noob question:

How does it works with the Long distance jamming.
U get a bonus to ur optimal jamming range.
Isnt this bad when u try to jam at lets say 15k???

FireFoxx80
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2005.11.18 14:21:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Whoot
Noob question:

How does it works with the Long distance jamming.
U get a bonus to ur optimal jamming range.
Isnt this bad when u try to jam at lets say 15k???



Jammer's don't have tracking. So < Optimal is good.

Phoenicia
hirr
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2005.11.18 14:56:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Linia
Ive just got into bomber and I thought that it might be smart to have such ECM - Multispectral I on it to make enemies loose target so I can cloak and get lively away :)

So Im getting into using one atm, you think its smart?
Ive thought of this setup:

hi:
2 x Cruise Missile Launcher
1 x Improved Cloak Device II

med:
1 x ECM - Multispectral Jammer I or II ?
1/2 x Cap Recharger I
1 x Sensor Booster I / II for long range shooting
maybe another ECM?

low:
1 x Nanofiber
1 x MAPC


Smart thinking, bad choice. A Multispectral jammer will give you one chance to jam; then your capacitor is empty. I would suggest using a dampener instead. At long range, the results are similar.

Ryysa
Mission Fail
Posted - 2005.11.24 18:42:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Dreez
Edited by: Dreez on 18/11/2005 12:43:48

I find it outmost ridicolous that a fully trained scorpionpilot
with topnotch skills in EW will only have just over 50% chanse
of jamming another battleship. Is an utter joke, and needs fixing.
If i spend monts training those skills to max, then id expect
to have atleast 80% chanse of an successful jamming.

Before this "new" EW patch if you were packing enough mods, you
could jam anything with a 100% chanse of success.

For example ive heard people jamming amarr ships using gallante
jammers, WTF is up with that. It should not be frikkin possible to
jam another race with the wrong kind of jammer, even if your skills
are elite. Specific jammer for specific race, of multispectrals for
a wildcard, but greatly reduced chanse of jamming.

I had some cals done and appearently , a pilot with topskills in
anything needed to EW, he has a 65% chanse of jamming the weakest
BS in a sorpion ffs !, 65% aint squat. Not to mention that its only
~46% against another scorpion.

The EW needs lookin into and ajdusted accordingly so that the %
chanse is increased when it comes to racial jammers.

I know that jamming happens alot more in "reality" then it shows
on the paper, but it still needs fixing.


Err, EW is fine.... it's a bit luck based...
You have like 50% chance with 1 jammer... calculate with 2 jammers it's 75% (use my formula), with 3 it's 87.5%....

Have you actually flown a scorp? i often end up jamming 2 BS with just 4 multi t2's fitted :o

Ryysa
Mission Fail
Posted - 2005.11.24 18:44:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Ryysa on 27/12/2005 09:17:48
Originally by: Linia
Ive just got into bomber and I thought that it might be smart to have such ECM - Multispectral I on it to make enemies loose target so I can cloak and get lively away :)

So Im getting into using one atm, you think its smart?
Ive thought of this setup:

hi:
2 x Cruise Missile Launcher
1 x Improved Cloak Device II

med:
1 x ECM - Multispectral Jammer I or II ?
1/2 x Cap Recharger I
1 x Sensor Booster I / II for long range shooting
maybe another ECM?

low:
1 x Nanofiber
1 x MAPC


try in mids 2 sensor boosters and 2 sensor dampeners...
And get skills up for the damps... (all T2 ofc).
Bomber is long-range damage support, so if someone is tackling a hac or BS, then if you warp in at 100 and then damp him with 2 damps he won't be able to lock you, and you'll be able to lock him with 2 boosters...
So you can sit there and pound him while he can't fire back...

[Post RMR Edit]
Forget this setup, damps are useless after RMR...
Use cap battery + multi instead if it fits.

Jana De'Morte
Posted - 2006.01.12 23:12:00 - [21]
 

i got a question about jamming.... what is the result of this jamming? is it that your opponent loses the lock on you or what?

Skidd Chung
Caldari
Euphoria Released
Posted - 2006.01.13 11:09:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Jana De'Morte
i got a question about jamming.... what is the result of this jamming? is it that your opponent loses the lock on you or what?


Using ECM (Electronic Counter Measures) or jamming causes your opponent to lose his locking ability for 20 seconds. So if you successfully 'jammed' him, he will immediately stop firing his guns and missiles, he also lose his ability to warp scramble and web you. Anything that requires him to lock you will be suppressed for 20 seconds when you successfully 'jammed' him.

He will need to wait for 20 seconds before he can lock you again. If you happen to jam him again on your next ECM cycle, then he will have to wait another 20 seconds.

An ECM burst module is a bit diferent though. It is like a smart bomb. It does not cause the target to lose his locking ability, he will just lose his current lock. He can lock you again immediately. Best use if you are being scrambled by pirates and are looking for a way to warp away to safety. Just activate the ECM burst and immediately warp to a safe location away from the pirates. As all the pirates will lose their lock for a brief time and also their scrambling ability with it, until they re-lock you. Best done, when you are allign to your next location and up to warp speed.

There are ways to counter 'jamming' or ECM. If you are a missile user, you can switch to FOF missiles which attacks the nearest hostile without a lock required.

The use of ECCM have been boosted, and it's effectiveness is by 50% more strength on your ship.

Use the ECM modules before he does. In an event where both parties have ECM modules, the one that locks first will have the advantage of 'jamming' his target before he can activate his ECMs. Thus effectively stopping a opponent from using any jamming equipment. (To jam, u need to lock!)

Drones are also an advantage if you manage to lock the enemy first and instruct drones to attack him, before you are jammed by the enemy. Once the instruction are given, the drones will continue to harrass the enemy even if you lose your lock due to being 'jammed' by the opponent.

Note: Jam also taste better with peanut butter.

Whoot
Posted - 2006.01.13 14:34:00 - [23]
 

Mmmm, i asked a question before in this topic bout long range jamming.
Got now me long range jamming skill up to lvl 3 i think.
But it seems a lot harder to jam targets on close range.
Is this fact or fiction?

VeNT
Minmatar
Freelancer Union
Unaffiliated
Posted - 2006.01.13 14:58:00 - [24]
 

fiction

Darkdashing
Posted - 2006.01.20 11:11:00 - [25]
 

Interesting stuff, it seems nicely useful and I've tried using jamming against rats on my miner in .5 and .6 space with cool results. I love seeing that they can't attack me for 20 seconds.

Anyway, is it the case that if you have 2 jammers on one target, it doesnt increase the percentage chance of jamming? Why isn't it 100 percent and why doesn't the description mention percentage?

ookke
GreenSwarm
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.01.20 11:27:00 - [26]
 

A little comparison:

ecm - multispectral jammer ii vs. 'hypnos' multispectral ecm i

optimal/falloff: 36/18km vs. 36/18km
jamming strength: 4.8 vs. 4.8
activation cost: 132 vs. 96(!!)
skill reqs: EW IV, electronics I vs. EW I, electronics I

You will see the same difference on the racial jammers too, why on earth is best named t1 better than t2?



Lithiani
Caldari
Posted - 2006.01.20 11:35:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Darkdashing
Anyway, is it the case that if you have 2 jammers on one target, it doesnt increase the percentage chance of jamming? Why isn't it 100 percent and why doesn't the description mention percentage?


Each Jammer is calculated seperately. There is no longer a 100% chance of Jamming taking effect. The trick to using Jammers effectively is to cycle them on and off. Jamming chance is determined by comparing the Jam Strength and Sensor Strength

Example: You have 2 Targets, we'll call them A and B, and you have 3 Jammers. You already have both locked, and are trying to keep both Jammed. Let's say (just for the sake of the example) that you have 50% chance of Jamming against them.


You try to Jam target A. Your Jam sticks, so you move on to target B

Your first Jam of target B fails, so you turn off that Jammer and use your third Jammer, which works.

You watch the Jam bars for a few moments, until target As bar comes down to 0. At this point the game re-rolls the Jam calc for the Jammer you have active on the target. It fails, so you turn off that Jammer. At this point all your Jammers are either red or green. Target A will be trying to relock you at this point.

The second Jammer (the one you failed to Jam target B with on the first cycle) is available again a few seconds after. You use it on target A, and the Jam takes.

Just after, target Bs Jam bar goes to 0. The game re-rolls the Jam calc from Jammer 3, and the Jam fails. At this point you have no Jammers left available. The next Jammer that's going to come up is number 1, in maybe 15ish seconds. You turn off Jammer 3 and wait, hoping not to die in the meantime.




The reason for turning the failed Jammers off is that otherwise the Jammer will continue to attempt to Jam, even though the target is already Jammed, and have no effect, but will both eat cap and put itself unavailable for another 20 seconds.

Putting 2 Jammers on one target and just leaving them there isn't as effective as cycling failed Jammers in and out. EWar takes a bit of micromanagement to get the maximum possible effectiveness from.

Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2006.01.20 11:39:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: ookke
A little comparison:

ecm - multispectral jammer ii vs. 'hypnos' multispectral ecm i

optimal/falloff: 36/18km vs. 36/18km
jamming strength: 4.8 vs. 4.8
activation cost: 132 vs. 96(!!)
skill reqs: EW IV, electronics I vs. EW I, electronics I

You will see the same difference on the racial jammers too, why on earth is best named t1 better than t2?

They should really remove the increased CPU usage of named damage mods and reintroduce them as they were prior to T2 -> having reduced CPU. (just like every other named module). Is this related to your question? Slightly, yes.

Named modules, especially the best named, are a lot harder to get your hands on than the T2 ones. I think that even in the cases where the best T1 version has no benefit over the T2 version, the best named T1 version tend to be more costly on market.
Simply put, the output of T2 modules is higher than best named T1 modules. There are some such T1 modules, however, that are dropped from several factions as well as a wide variety of ship classes. These aren't as uncommon.

Pojo
Caldari
PartyAnimals
Posted - 2006.01.20 15:36:00 - [29]
 

Another quick question lets say two bad guys are attacking you. One of them jams you so you start the 20's timeout, during that time can you lock the other guy or does this kill your lockon capability completely?

Neutral

Praetor Novak
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.01.20 19:25:00 - [30]
 



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