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Rexy
DarkStar 1
Posted - 2005.10.13 12:55:00 - [1411]
 

This thread is getting really long, can you plz update the starterpost Tux with current and planned changes?

i've been playing with a cyclone on sisi, hoping it would fare better, but with the new emphasis on tanking i feel it has only gotten worse. both ferox and prophecy are good tankers, especially with the new changes, the brutix still seems tricky but at least has the option to deal a lot of damage with blasters making up for the lack of tanking.

I havent tried these myself as i simply cant fly em, but my beef is with the cyclone,wich i can fly. with 4 med slots and a shield boost bonus it is no match for the tanks of the ferox or the prophecy. though undoubtedly nice for npcíng the lack of damage bonuses and gun turrets does nothing for the cylone in pvp. with a shield extender it gets some surviveabilety, but with the upcomming damage mod stacking nerf it would seem a rupture with howwies, lauchers 2 damage mods and grid mods+extenders would perform better then a cyclone at a fraction of the cost.

in short the damage output doesnt nowhere near make up for the lack of tanking the cyclone haS. the odd shield boost bonus it has doesnt do that much for it, because of lack of slots. personally i'm still hoping for a change to more turret boni+points, it's never gonna compete with tanking, might as well follow minny design philosophy and go for more damage.

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2005.10.13 13:23:00 - [1412]
 

Second the suggestion of updating the starting post with the current projected changes (and possibly starting a new thread).

About the Bellicose: most people will agree that it's still a bit too weak. If you don't want to give it an "extra" bonus, how about simply reducing its base sig radius? I know it's already smaller than the other EW cruisers (110 vs 130-150 for the others), but that's not enough to save it with no other defense. How about 80-90? That might give it enough survivability in combat.

Also, I know this is the "t1 ship improvement" project, but since you've already touched the Eagle: any hope of the devs taking a look at the Ares and Raptor at some point? At the moment they are horribly lacking compared to the other interceptors and generally considered ships you only fly if you have no other choice, it would be nice to see them get a real role -- having two races have only one competitive interceptor kind of sucks :/

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2005.10.13 13:44:00 - [1413]
 

"200mm...15% for the mass penalty, 10% more for the basic penalty. So 25% slower, AND far slower to warp.

Aka, suicide."


well, Claw with 200mm tungsten plate goes at 3.65 km/sec or so, ~20% slower than without. Warp difference with 400 mm tungsten was something like 1 sec -- 6 sec vs 5 in identical situation where ships has to spin 180 degree and accelerate all way from full stop.

That's still hard to hit by anything bigger... just vulnerable to non-plated 'ceptors, now.

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2005.10.13 16:26:00 - [1414]
 

Edited by: Maya Rkell on 13/10/2005 16:33:28
Exactly, that's a *huge* margin, J0.

Do the maths...you're making yourself very vulnrable to BS fire because of the MWD sig radius bloom (did you forget that?). It's basically suicide to try ANY sort of closing manouver. Missile ships, well, regardless of the heading you're going to be hit much harder if you try and MWD.

ANYTHING which removes a good deal of speed when you use a MWD is extremely dangerous - to YOU. I've looked, before, in the differences between named and T2 MWD's and there is a substantial difference in vulnrability - and this is FAR more significant than just 25% sig radius and 200m/s under MWD.

A 200mm RT plate is NOT especially effective either, compared to the 400's of today.

Say NO to plate mass. Plate mass makes them sucicidal for frigate-sized ships.

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2005.10.13 16:45:00 - [1415]
 

"Exactly, that's a *huge* margin, J0.

Do the maths...you're making yourself very vulnrable to BS fire because of the MWD bloom (did you forget that?). It's basically suicide to try ANY sort of closing manouver. Missile ships, well, rrgardless of the heading you're going to be hit much harder if you try and MWD."


Well, i didn't really bother with the math, thought practical test would be better ^^

so grabbed a Claw, put the 200mm plate on it along with mwd and the usual stuff, and went on the FFA with it... could pretty much approach anything i wanted no matter what distance i started with, didn't get hit although they tried... no different from usual by the looks of it ^^;


"A 200mm RT plate is NOT especially effective either, compared to the 400's of today."

Aye, you can combine it with the adaptive nano and cap relay in the lows on the Claw though, which altogether with the new skills to passive resistances and increased ability to run the repairer doesn't come out bad at all. Although i'd need to do more testing before can tell how good it is o.O;


"Say NO to plate mass. Plate mass makes them sucicidal for frigate-sized ships."

I'd be tempted to opt for some actual boost to frigate hp and leaving the plates with their current test stats, to be honest. Simply so people don't get locked into single setup option that gives them chance to survive long enough to do something... the weight penalty is quite harsh, but just enough to make you think of maybe fitting something else that'll work just as good as what should be _extra_ hp, not the requirement for survival :/

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2005.10.13 16:50:00 - [1416]
 

Edited by: Maya Rkell on 13/10/2005 16:51:22
Sorry j0, I've done a lot of testing of smaller changes in speed and the effect was noticeable. Unless CCP have changed the way tracking works...getting hits for 200 from a BS where before it was 20-30 is suididal, as I'm sure you'll agree.

And what increased ability to run the repper?

You say boost frigate hp. Why? Plate setups have to sacrifice to boost their hp's. It would make plates even LESS worthwhile, because they would be a smaller total increase. Most frigates don't NEED a bonus to their hit points!

I'll say again...the weight penalty is plain suicide in a situation where the enemy has longer ranged weapons of ANY sort. Or drones. Seen what drones do in the new situation? They're seriously more effective. Drone tracking needs a nerf too if this goes through...

(see my other thread - just revert the armour plate boost allready. They will still be useful, and USED, with the reversion)

PS, There are setups which ALLREADY use the slower speed of plated 'ceptors (Rail Tarranis, for one) to slaughter them. So the speed penalty is allready significant.

Somatic Neuron
Posted - 2005.10.13 16:51:00 - [1417]
 

Have to agree that there is far too much fluff to filter through to get any good information...can you update your original posts Tuxford?

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2005.10.13 17:05:00 - [1418]
 

Edited by: j0sephine on 13/10/2005 17:05:16

"Sorry j0, I've done a lot of testing of smaller changes in speed and the effect was noticeable. Unless CCP have changed the way tracking works...getting hits for 200 from a BS where before it was 20-30 is suididal, as I'm sure you'll agree."

Hmm it could be just luck on my part then, i'll fully accept it's possible. No idea if there's some tracking changes playing factor in there, will need to do some more tests to get better idea how it works out now.


"And what increased ability to run the repper?"

Sorry, probably just my fitting skills (and wrong gun choice) ... with the 400mm plate and the regular close range setup i didn't have room left for power relay. Checking now i see it's possible to actually fit it there so yeah, there's no real gain in that aspect when switching to smaller plate.


"You say boost frigate hp. Why? Plate setups have to sacrifice to boost their hp's. It would make plates even LESS worthwhile, because they would be a smaller total increase."

This is sort of the very reason -- i think the hp gain is currently too worthwile, to the point where it not only easily offsets fitting requirements, but also makes the plate setup one (if not _the_) top choice. If the frigates had better survability out of the box, this would indeed make the plate setup less dire necessity, which in turn could possibly allow to slightly reduce the fitting requirements on them, perhaps? It seems to me it could result into wider range of setup choices that'd be more balanced with one another.

This could be just a stupid idea though, i get plenty of these ;s

keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2005.10.13 17:12:00 - [1419]
 

Originally by: Maya Rkell
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 13/10/2005 16:51:22
Sorry j0, I've done a lot of testing of smaller changes in speed and the effect was noticeable. Unless CCP have changed the way tracking works...getting hits for 200 from a BS where before it was 20-30 is suididal, as I'm sure you'll agree.

And what increased ability to run the repper?

You say boost frigate hp. Why? Plate setups have to sacrifice to boost their hp's. It would make plates even LESS worthwhile, because they would be a smaller total increase. Most frigates don't NEED a bonus to their hit points!

I'll say again...the weight penalty is plain suicide in a situation where the enemy has longer ranged weapons of ANY sort. Or drones. Seen what drones do in the new situation? They're seriously more effective. Drone tracking needs a nerf too if this goes through...

(see my other thread - just revert the armour plate boost allready. They will still be useful, and USED, with the reversion)

PS, There are setups which ALLREADY use the slower speed of plated 'ceptors (Rail Tarranis, for one) to slaughter them. So the speed penalty is allready significant.


Plate mass would work perfectly if only they got rid of the fixed penalty.

Youd get 10% speed penalty for fitting a 400mm steel plate, less for named ones.

I keep saying that, i know, im feeling a like a broken record.

But i refuise to consider plates as balanceable or testable for performance until they get rid of the % speed penalty.

ANd I urge you to do the same ;p

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2005.10.13 17:44:00 - [1420]
 

Originally by: j0sephine
This is sort of the very reason -- i think the hp gain is currently too worthwile, to the point where it not only easily offsets fitting requirements, but also makes the plate setup one (if not _the_) top choice. If the frigates had better survability out of the box, this would indeed make the plate setup less dire necessity, which in turn could possibly allow to slightly reduce the fitting requirements on them, perhaps? It seems to me it could result into wider range of setup choices that'd be more balanced with one another.

This could be just a stupid idea though, i get plenty of these ;s



I'm not disagreeing. I was happy with 1000 armour on my Claw, 1400 is OTT.

The thing is, the simple answer is to revert the plate changes, NOT to add mass - the previous situation was stable and people used the modules heavily in any case. Adding mass introduces a whole new set of problems and as I said unless they change the way MWD bloom works (to real speed), is terrible for their usage.

Mah Kraah
Minmatar
Masuat'aa Matari
Posted - 2005.10.13 20:41:00 - [1421]
 

Originally by: Nyxus
Please give the Maller more than 50 more grid than the ruppie & rax. If the Ruppie and Rax can fit 720's and Neuts with decent setups then the Maller should be able to fit Heavy Beams as well

the rupture can now fit 4 720mmT2 if ur skills are maxed,no plates no mwd no medium rep. isnt the maller perfectly able to fit 4 of the biggest crusierlasers?? + decent tank?
ohh u whant to be able to fit MORE than a ruptur to "balance" it again.
heavy beam t2 use same grid as a 720mmT2 both 275 mw. justyfie ur need for more powergrid, u already have more.
720 do more dammage per hit? ur lasers fire 2.5 times faster with 50% better tracking.

oh , yes, forgot the amarr are the superior race. Maller need to be able to fit 6 of the biggest guns, double t2 med rep double 1600t2 plates and please more lowslots for hardeners coz the resistance on a maller MK2 is sooo weak , please devs ajust the fittings and slots acordingly, thy

Hexlander
Minmatar
Legion of Triumviratus
Stella Polaris.
Posted - 2005.10.13 23:02:00 - [1422]
 

Edited by: Hexlander on 13/10/2005 23:04:56
Originally by: Tuxford
Cruisers

Mining/Logistic
Kind of a combined class of logistic and industrial ships

Augoror

  • 10% bonus to capacitor need of Energy Transfer Arrays



Osprey

  • 10% bonus to capacitor need of Shield Transporters



Exequror

  • 10% bonus to capacitor need of Remote Armor Repair Systems



Ahh.. 10% bonus?? do you mean reduction?!?!

keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2005.10.13 23:11:00 - [1423]
 

Tuuuuuux!

Was discussing this in another thread... why do BCs align so damn slowly? Why didnt they get included in the agility boost? Could you give them one now? I mean, my proph takes longer to warp than many BS i was with when in a group...

And more importantly, if the biggest cruisers have 150m sig, and the smalllest BS has 320, isnt 240-300m for BC a little high?

Tomias Itaraou
Posted - 2005.10.14 00:32:00 - [1424]
 

Another interesting thing - non Caldari Missile Frigates

The inquisitor and breacher are ships that are currently without purpose - they are outmatched by the kestrel.

While I caution against making them kestrels(the kestrel is the better missile spammer), make them strong in there very own forte.

For example, the Inqisitor must be a slow lumbering ship that can fit a mean tank - It should be given a 4th lowslot with another 2 powergrid to boot. This allows it to while outmatched by DOT by the kestrels missiles, be a hardy tanker.

While a 4th lowslot may be overpowered, perhaps it is prudent to give it some form of tanking bonus, such as the +5% to armor resist per level.

The Breacher should be an minmatar missile boat, weaker then the kestrel in firepower and defense, but have enough speed to compensate for it.

Currently the breacher is only 40 m/s faster then the Kestrel, I propose boosting the speed to 320 m/s amd lowering the mass to 1000000 kg, this is slightly above the speed of the new Rifter.

"This frigate is a fragile scrapheap" the speed and defenses of the vessels hould reflect this, the defenses do, but the speed does not.

I also propose removing a highslot and giving it a 3/2/3 slot layout or a 3/3/2 layout, the utility slot is useless.

These changes should make all of the missile frigates useful - while keeping the kestrel the head of the pack for missile spamming.

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2005.10.14 07:48:00 - [1425]
 

Originally by: keepiru
[
Plate mass would work perfectly if only they got rid of the fixed penalty.

Youd get 10% speed penalty for fitting a 400mm steel plate, less for named ones.

I keep saying that, i know, im feeling a like a broken record.



At the risk of adding to the broken record chorus, I totally agree. Please get rid of the static penalty, and adjust the mass penalty until things feel right. The static mass penalty makes the smaller plates useless, while without it they would very much be worth consideration.

Elve Sorrow
Amarr
Celestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2005.10.14 07:51:00 - [1426]
 

Originally by: Mah Kraah
Maller need to be able to fit 6 of the biggest guns, double t2 med rep double 1600t2 plates and please more lowslots for hardeners coz the resistance on a maller MK2 is sooo weak , please devs ajust the fittings and slots acordingly, thy


Now if only we had 6 turrets eh? Rolling Eyes

elFarto
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.10.14 08:32:00 - [1427]
 

Originally by: keepiru
Was discussing this in another thread... why do BCs align so damn slowly? Why didnt they get included in the agility boost? Could you give them one now? I mean, my proph takes longer to warp than many BS i was with when in a group...


Please please please make the BC's a little more agile. I was testing out my corp mates tank on his apoc last night. He then gang warped us to the station, and my prophecy and his apoc entered warp at the same time, and we weren't warp aligned.

Regards
elFarto

CCP Oveur

Posted - 2005.10.14 10:11:00 - [1428]
 

New thread coming up within the next week, we're going over some stats and feedback, show some fresh stats and stuff.

BTW, is this a record? 48 pages, gj Tux Laughing

Eftim S'Jet
Posted - 2005.10.14 11:53:00 - [1429]
 

Hoping that my opinion counts as well...

Being a missile man, I really must object to the KEstrel and Caracal changes.

First of al, Kinetic damage bonus is useless. Who here uses it? Most ships' shields are weak vs EM and their armor/hulls are weak againt Explosive.

Missile Launch rate bonus was the defining trait of the Kessie. Bring it back, bring it back, don't take it away from us, cause you don't knoooow...

On the Caracal: 5 heavy missile launchers (be it standard, named or whatever) will take more than 90% percent of the powergrid. That's preposterous. How is it a missile cruiser if equiping the launchers leaves it with next to no equipment? Instead of a nerf it needs a god boost.

Please, before applying such changes, try to think on how these changes will affect their role. In these two cases, there's not much proof of it.

On the other changes, I will not state an opinion, since I've not flown many other ships (except the Merlin, who needed the boost).

Cheers!

Kai Lae
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2005.10.14 12:32:00 - [1430]
 

Originally by: Tomias Itaraou
Another interesting thing - non Caldari Missile Frigates


The Breacher should be an minmatar missile boat, weaker then the kestrel in firepower and defense, but have enough speed to compensate for it.

Currently the breacher is only 40 m/s faster then the Kestrel, I propose boosting the speed to 320 m/s amd lowering the mass to 1000000 kg, this is slightly above the speed of the new Rifter.

"This frigate is a fragile scrapheap" the speed and defenses of the vessels hould reflect this, the defenses do, but the speed does not.

I also propose removing a highslot and giving it a 3/2/3 slot layout or a 3/3/2 layout, the utility slot is useless.

These changes should make all of the missile frigates useful - while keeping the kestrel the head of the pack for missile spamming.


Breacher is fast enough to be useful now on TQ, speed with an afterburner is about 700 m/s, and it's being increased. More speed wouldn't be bad on top of this but I don't think it's needed. In order to shoehorn 3 standard launchers onto it you need a MAPC, which also gives enough grid for a 280mm - so the turret hardpoint isn't useless. What the breacher needs is simply a 3rd midslot. Currently you can go with an AB + a shieldbooster, or an AB + scrammer, but not both. 3 mids would make for a much more flexible and useful ship.


keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2005.10.14 12:48:00 - [1431]
 

Originally by: Oveur
New thread coming up within the next week, we're going over some stats and feedback, show some fresh stats and stuff.

BTW, is this a record? 48 pages, gj Tux Laughing


O.o nifty yellow highlight function.

Also: yay for new thread ^_^

CCP Tuxford

Posted - 2005.10.14 13:07:00 - [1432]
 

Originally by: Eftim S'Jet
Hoping that my opinion counts as well...

Being a missile man, I really must object to the KEstrel and Caracal changes.

First of al, Kinetic damage bonus is useless. Who here uses it? Most ships' shields are weak vs EM and their armor/hulls are weak againt Explosive.

Missile Launch rate bonus was the defining trait of the Kessie. Bring it back, bring it back, don't take it away from us, cause you don't knoooow...

On the Caracal: 5 heavy missile launchers (be it standard, named or whatever) will take more than 90% percent of the powergrid. That's preposterous. How is it a missile cruiser if equiping the launchers leaves it with next to no equipment? Instead of a nerf it needs a god boost.

Please, before applying such changes, try to think on how these changes will affect their role. In these two cases, there's not much proof of it.

On the other changes, I will not state an opinion, since I've not flown many other ships (except the Merlin, who needed the boost).

Cheers!

I did a nice excel sheet the other day which displayed how long a ship would last given that it would only take one kind of damage. As I recall I checked on some Minmatar ship what damage type I would need to do to kill it fastest. That damage type was kinetic, followed closely by thermal. Of course the difference wasn't really dramatic and the amount of shield and armor you have could change this result but it doesn't change the fact that the kinetic is far from useless.

Compare Caracal with other similar ships with a full rack of their best weapon. Caracal looks pretty good now doesn't it?

Nyxus
Amarr
Fat J
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2005.10.14 13:28:00 - [1433]
 

Edited by: Nyxus on 14/10/2005 13:29:03
Originally by: Mah Kraah
Originally by: Nyxus
Please give the Maller more than 50 more grid than the ruppie & rax. If the Ruppie and Rax can fit 720's and Neuts with decent setups then the Maller should be able to fit Heavy Beams as well

the rupture can now fit 4 720mmT2 if ur skills are maxed,no plates no mwd no medium rep. isnt the maller perfectly able to fit 4 of the biggest crusierlasers?? + decent tank?
ohh u whant to be able to fit MORE than a ruptur to "balance" it again.
heavy beam t2 use same grid as a 720mmT2 both 275 mw. justyfie ur need for more powergrid, u already have more.
720 do more dammage per hit? ur lasers fire 2.5 times faster with 50% better tracking.

oh , yes, forgot the amarr are the superior race. Maller need to be able to fit 6 of the biggest guns, double t2 med rep double 1600t2 plates and please more lowslots for hardeners coz the resistance on a maller MK2 is sooo weak , please devs ajust the fittings and slots acordingly, thy


Look at the numbers again. The Ruppie can fit it's largest guns (720's) AND 2 Heavy Assault launchers. And it's faster, it only has 50 grid less, only 150 less armor, and 125 more shields. Oh yea, it also has a 60m3 dronebay. But it seems to me that is about right for the Ruppie.

The Maller is slower and heavier. It has an extra turret slot to fill than a ruppie, but only 50 more grid to do it with. It has a utility slot but lacks the fitting to utilize it (ah, the irony). It has a defensive bonus, but lacks any dronebay or missile points for frigate/close range defense.

If the other 2 tier 3's can fit thier heaviest weapons with a little grid left over shouldnt the maller since the entirety of it's offence consists of it's turrets and it's greater weaknesses to frigates/close range and Nos?

Truly the Maller should have a bit more grid than the Ruppie. And both Ruppie and Maller should have more grid than the Rax. Currently the Rax can fit a full load of 250's easily and a great tank while still having 100m3 of dronebay since the 250's and Nuets are so much easier to fit than Beams or 720's. I laid out all the numbers about...ahh....15 pages back.

Tux said he was looking at the grid for the Tier 3 cruisers again. The Ruppies and Mallers extra slots while having MUCH smaller (or non-existant) dronebays mean nothing if you don't have the ability to fit the extra slots. Of course this is the problem with utility slots in general, but more particularly Amarr and Minnie as the base grid on thier weapons is so much higher than Rails and Blasers.

There is still the problem with small T2 weapons doing more damage than Medium weapons because they go into constant wrecking mode becuase there is no sig rad cap, but thats another thread. Even with the MK2 changes plated cruisers with small t2 will still dominate the cruiser battlefield.

Nyxus

Derron Bel
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2005.10.14 13:38:00 - [1434]
 

Increase the Maller's grid again and you'll have to increase the Prophecy's grid...again.

keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2005.10.14 13:51:00 - [1435]
 

And thus we go full circle and come to the crux of the matter again:

Why cant ccp adopt a consistent stange in regards to a ship mounting a full rack of its biggest weapons, and how much of its fitting it has left afterwards?

Need to decide wether they can or cant. Mega can, tempest cant, prophecy can brutix cant... decide, apply, then balance.

Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2005.10.14 14:29:00 - [1436]
 

Originally by: Oveur
New thread coming up within the next week, we're going over some stats and feedback, show some fresh stats and stuff.

BTW, is this a record? 48 pages, gj Tux Laughing

Excellent! Less posts to go through for those who wants to post and hasn't bothered following the thred until now.

Say, has this thred really beaten the turret-thred (summer 2004) or the Castor-thred(s) (winter 2003/2004)?

Originally by: Tuxford
I did a nice excel sheet the other day which displayed how long a ship would last given that it would only take one kind of damage. As I recall I checked on some Minmatar ship what damage type I would need to do to kill it fastest. That damage type was kinetic, followed closely by thermal. Of course the difference wasn't really dramatic and the amount of shield and armor you have could change this result but it doesn't change the fact that the kinetic is far from useless.

Compare Caracal with other similar ships with a full rack of their best weapon. Caracal looks pretty good now doesn't it?

Well, there is two things to consider: the first is that almost no ship goes without tank and the other is that people tend to harden their ships.

Was this taken into consideration?

Tank first, then.
It is extremely common that people put a plate (though not an extender) or a form of repairer, altering the hitpoints and making resistance gaps much more pronounced. Repairers and boosters give more hitpoints the longer it takes to kill them while plates and extenders give a fixed value.

Hardening.
The thing with hardening is that there are four races. Three of the races are likely to do thermal damage and three of the races are likely to do kinetic. Amarr and Minnie tend to do either Exp or EM to augment one of the previously mentioned types.
This means that the most logical things to harden against is TH/Kin, even before covering the gap in armour or shield (whichever you are hardening). This offsets a standard resistance excel sheet quite a bit since suddenly TH/Kin are the ones with highest resistance.

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2005.10.14 14:49:00 - [1437]
 

"I did a nice excel sheet the other day which displayed how long a ship would last given that it would only take one kind of damage. As I recall I checked on some Minmatar ship what damage type I would need to do to kill it fastest. That damage type was kinetic, followed closely by thermal."

Considering the shield resistance to kinetic is 2x as large as resistance to thermal, while for armour the 'edge' thermal resistance has over kinetic is much smaller... this sounds strange, to say at least. Kinetic damage becomes better choice over thermal only when the amounts of shield and armour on the ship is like 33:66 i.e. there's at least twice as much armour as shield o.O;


"Compare Caracal with other similar ships with a full rack of their best weapon. Caracal looks pretty good now doesn't it?"

No, she looks pretty sub-par, to be honest. Ships dealing thermal+kinetic damage are more effective due to reason mentioned above, making the hybrid and projectile turret ships superior. Other turret ships of the same tier like Omen still come out favourably, given their 4 turrets are enough to outdamage Caracal's 5 launchers at distances up to 17-30 km depending on exact lasers used.

Caracal is pretty much limited to hovering at long distance (because below 20 km or so ships of similar class outdamage her by large margin, and her tanking abilities are weak) ... spamming her missiles and hoping the target is too dumb to notice they aren't warp-scrambled and plain warp out. How's that looking pretty good, really..?

Hans Fortean
Casting Shadows
Posted - 2005.10.14 15:25:00 - [1438]
 

Will the Thorax at least get the 100m3 added to its cargo hold? You try to load med hybrid charges in any quantity and you can't hold enough loot to make it worth your trouble. Not that anyone actually puts med blasters on a Thorax, but that's a different issue altogether! Smile

Tsual
Minmatar
Posted - 2005.10.14 15:26:00 - [1439]
 

Someone mentioned signature of cruisers was decreased, did the same happen to destroyers?

(Additional who else would like to see a 6 high slots plus 7 slots distributed between low and med destroyer as a new ship?)

Diana Merris
Minmatar
Pator Tech School
Posted - 2005.10.14 15:33:00 - [1440]
 

Originally by: j0sephine
"I did a nice excel sheet the other day which displayed how long a ship would last given that it would only take one kind of damage. As I recall I checked on some Minmatar ship what damage type I would need to do to kill it fastest. That damage type was kinetic, followed closely by thermal."

Considering the shield resistance to kinetic is 2x as large as resistance to thermal, while for armour the 'edge' thermal resistance has over kinetic is much smaller... this sounds strange, to say at least. Kinetic damage becomes better choice over thermal only when the amounts of shield and armour on the ship is like 33:66 i.e. there's at least twice as much armour as shield o.O;


No, that makes perfect sense, Tux said earlier in the tread that he armor tanks minmatar ships since they don't have the mids to shield tank.


Originally by: j0sephine
"Compare Caracal with other similar ships with a full rack of their best weapon. Caracal looks pretty good now doesn't it?"

No, she looks pretty sub-par, to be honest. Ships dealing thermal+kinetic damage are more effective due to reason mentioned above, making the hybrid and projectile turret ships superior. Other turret ships of the same tier like Omen still come out favourably, given their 4 turrets are enough to outdamage Caracal's 5 launchers at distances up to 17-30 km depending on exact lasers used.

Caracal is pretty much limited to hovering at long distance (because below 20 km or so ships of similar class outdamage her by large margin, and her tanking abilities are weak) ... spamming her missiles and hoping the target is too dumb to notice they aren't warp-scrambled and plain warp out. How's that looking pretty good, really..?


Yes, the Caracal is still sub par but not because of grid. Somewhere along the way it seems to have lost one of its slots. Add the 5th mid slot back and it'll be alot better.


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