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blankseplocked Missles, Ravens, Caldari in General. Only minor changes needed
 
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Suze'Rain
Caldari
Posted - 2005.09.19 10:14:00 - [31]
 

I'm a caldari player, and a missile user specifically... I was hit badly by the missile changes, but they were all justifiable for game fairness, so no changes to the mechanics are badly needed - so no whine about missiles here.

however...

a range of ammo types would be superb to tweak missiles - short-range versions which do more damage with a faster expolosion radius (bigger warhead, smaller fuel cell, ingame) or longer range ammo with half the damage and slower explosion radius. (smaller warhead, bigger fuel cell)

the best analogy I can think of is napoleonic era ships, where a cannon could be "double-shotted" with two balls for shorter-range heavy damage, or with more powder, for a long range shot.
it'd allow missile users to tweak up their setup far better for threats, with absolutely minimal art asset cost to CCP, and, I suspect, almost no effort in terms of creating the objects...


Personally, I'd also like to see a BS sized heavy launcher (similar to how the assault launcher with standards is for cruisers), with a 60-80 missile capacity.
That or a cruiser/BS sized rocket launcher - possibly one that launched multiple missiles - Raven with 6 BS sized rocket launchers that hold 240 rockets at a time?



Kelgen Thann
SUBLIME L.L.C.
SMASH Alliance
Posted - 2005.09.19 19:46:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Kelgen Thann on 19/09/2005 19:46:11
Quote:
so no changes to the mechanics are badly needed - so no whine about missiles here.


Wasn't whining about the missles, only offeirng up new changes that are lacking at the moment Razz

Quote:
I'd also like to see a BS sized heavy launcher (similar to how the assault launcher with standards is for cruisers), with a 60-80 missile capacity.


That would be like having a BS sized medium projectile gun that fires 3 times as fast as a normal Medium projectile gun, or BS sized 250mm rails that fire 3 times as fast.

Would be good but would throw the game out of wack. There wouldn't be a role for cruisers.



Suze'Rain
Caldari
Posted - 2005.09.20 00:47:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Kelgen Thann

That would be like having a BS sized medium projectile gun that fires 3 times as fast as a normal Medium projectile gun, or BS sized 250mm rails that fire 3 times as fast.

Would be good but would throw the game out of wack. There wouldn't be a role for cruisers.



was thinking more a single firing heavy launcher - same as an assault launcher, but with a big capacity to exploit a BS's size and powergrid, for heavies. no significant increase in fire rate. (though a assault launcher is 12s to the 15s launch rate of a standard)
double firing rocket would most likely push the balance, though I'd like to go do some playtesting before I scribble down some figures.

Kelgen Thann
SUBLIME L.L.C.
SMASH Alliance
Posted - 2005.09.23 02:17:00 - [34]
 

I hear ya about those Super Heavy launchers but that's the same as a BS sized 250 rail that uses 4 times the Medium ammo.

If you want more capacity I suggest using T2 heavy launchers on a BattleCruiser

Karrihn
Caldari
Black Company
Posted - 2005.09.30 12:34:00 - [35]
 

its looking like I should just train up to Battlecruiser 5.

Grey Area
Caldari
Posted - 2005.09.30 18:56:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: HippoKing
real posts with real points that are not just whine don't get flamed


Oh if only it were true...check THIS out.

Three posts into the thread, and we get an all out attack from the flamethrower, without so much as a spark from me...

I think the turret camp are a little defensive that we haven't gone away yet...

Wrayeth
EdgeGamers
Situation: Normal
Posted - 2005.09.30 21:39:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Sage Fire


What's weird is that earlier today, a friend of mine was doing an agent mission with me. He told me that bigger missiles, when shot at an aligned target (as in, a target not moving across your screen from afar, but moving directly towards you), do normal damage. I was doing 130 damage with heavies against a NPC elite frig (arch angel viper) which then turned to 15 or so when the frig reached me and began its orbit (i.e., not coming at me straight anymore). Now, this might be a clue on your research thing. But I'm no missile guru. Maybe it's in the actual mechanics CCP meant for explosion radius (or whatever it is), or it's an exploit? I don't know what to make of it.
******


Your buddy wasn't quite right about that. Turrets hit best when something's moving directly towards you, but it doesn't matter which direction they're moving for missiles.

The reason your buddy's been seeing his missiles do more damage whent he target is approaching is that many cruisers and frigs MWD to get close, and MWD increases their sig radius, causing them to take more damage from large missiles (as long as they're not going so fast the damage gets reduced). Once a ship takes up orbit around you, it generally does not use its MWD much, so I see how your friend could've reached his original conclusion.

Anyway, it's the MWD and not the fact they're moving in a straight line. Cool

WarRages
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2005.10.01 18:38:00 - [38]
 

The best point made in this thread is the raven is crap in pvp now!!!!!!! All the setups ive seen now after the patch are for PVE and such. Thats exactly most of are points being made why reduce a BS- Battleship dammit to doing nothing effectively but rat hunt and missions. Ive heard alot about making them like turrets and i say plz god no dont do it.

But i do like like the idea of making different missile types for specific range and why not every other BS have ammo specific to range for them, this could really help with this totally screwed up missile job the devs came up with (btw are drugs legal at CCP or something).Twisted Evil

One thing i would really like for the devs to explain is how a homing missile does not hit its target, so it only does crap damage Shocked

Bring back something or do something to put the raven back into PVP and fleet where it belongs. Wink

Vang Vorkain
Posted - 2005.10.02 00:44:00 - [39]
 

well i will say yes that missles have realy been narfed good, by CCP. i have only played for like 36 days so far but i spent time trying to get my skills up to use the heavy missles.

so i get the new heavys and head out, and fig ok rats u been hitting me for 100 damage now my turn! lolrof i let go with a salvo os 3 heavys and i see the numbers come up 18 dam, 20 dam, 21 dam i was like this #$%^^&^ @#SS so i go back put on my light missles and go back out and hit for 80 to 90 dam.

but still think this is funny im running around in a cyclone but have to have light missles to do any dam to the rats! so yes i think missles need to be re done! becouse this is not right!

The Wizz117
Reikoku
KenZoku
Posted - 2005.10.03 11:39:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Vang Vorkain
well i will say yes that missles have realy been narfed good, by CCP. i have only played for like 36 days so far but i spent time trying to get my skills up to use the heavy missles.

so i get the new heavys and head out, and fig ok rats u been hitting me for 100 damage now my turn! lolrof i let go with a salvo os 3 heavys and i see the numbers come up 18 dam, 20 dam, 21 dam i was like this #$%^^&^ @#SS so i go back put on my light missles and go back out and hit for 80 to 90 dam.

but still think this is funny im running around in a cyclone but have to have light missles to do any dam to the rats! so yes i think missles need to be re done! becouse this is not right!


for me its even worse: i fitted a mix of light and heavy missile launchers on my raven, thats a battel ship, even since they nerfed the ship bonus its still more efficient to fit smaller launchers on it.

B0rN2KiLL
MicroFunks
Green Alliance
Posted - 2005.10.04 19:37:00 - [41]
 

t2 damage mods needed, t2 bcu would be nice.. namd bcus cost a hell of a fotune comapred to named turret damage mods.. 30 mil per medium typed bcu, 80 mil for high end named bcu..

Dr Tetrahydrocannabinol
Mercenaries of Andosia
Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2005.10.05 00:56:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Dr Tetrahydrocannabinol on 05/10/2005 00:57:54
ugh

Dr Tetrahydrocannabinol
Mercenaries of Andosia
Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2005.10.05 00:57:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: Dr Tetrahydrocannabinol on 05/10/2005 00:57:43
Well the main problem with missiles is that its only .5 of a race that use them as their main weapons type. Its much easier to cater to majority of eve via turret skills/mods. Its been two years since the game has been out and it looks like CCP is finally getting around to the fact that some people actually use them exclusevely.Im sure a buff is instore sometime in the future however, dont expect it before Kali.

Fredonan
Caldari
State Protectorate
Posted - 2005.10.05 14:45:00 - [44]
 

Pardon my being only 16 days old in this game, but it looks to me like all of you guys are doing is complaining about having to work together.

For reference:
How many American Battleships fought alone in WWII?

What happened to the Bismark? Who fought without an escort, and was sunk by several old bi-planes because their AA guns couldn't traverse that slow.

If you are so worried about small gunships, why don't you just take an escort?
Rig the battleships for heavy damage against Cruisers/Battleships.
And then bring along several Cruisers/Frigates rigged to track down and annihilate smaller vessels.

Just because you're flying a cruiser, doesn't mean you have to equip Cruiser sized weapons. I have a Destroyer right now, and she can make mincemeat of just about any frigate I've met. Most of them are NPC's, but with a ship that small you really can't improve it much.

If you're a solo player, I'm sorry but I learned something real interesting on my first day of playing.
This is a Fleet Strategy Game.
Emphasis on the word Fleet.

There's also a reason why games are called Massively Multi-player Online RPG's.

Now, I'm not saying there shouldn't be fixes to balance issues, I enjoy reading about all these neat little things you guys talk about. But please, quit it with the whining. If you want to see how far whining about changes goes look at UO.
There's a difference between Feedback, and whining. Learn it, please.

The Wizz117
Reikoku
KenZoku
Posted - 2005.10.06 15:08:00 - [45]
 

how would you like it when your brand new car gets nerfed and only drives 60km/h at max and when you bring it back to the dude you bought it from he says: stop whining just adapt your car and put a new engine in it!

Dalts
Posted - 2005.10.06 18:59:00 - [46]
 

OK, now don't go mental at me coz I'm only guessing here, but do the target painters not help increase the missile damage done due to the increase in sig radius???

Also, would it not be better if there was the ability to use light missiles in the heavy and cruise missile launchers, but with the slower RoF that the launchers have???

xenorx
0utbreak
Posted - 2005.10.06 21:01:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Dalts
OK, now don't go mental at me coz I'm only guessing here, but do the target painters not help increase the missile damage done due to the increase in sig radius???

Also, would it not be better if there was the ability to use light missiles in the heavy and cruise missile launchers, but with the slower RoF that the launchers have???


Dalts, the target painters help a little bit but not very much at all. Also, launchers used to be able to fit different size missiles in the past. We have seen a steady nerfing over the last year and a half to where we are now with one missile type for one launcher. Excluding defenders of course.

I really miss the old days when we could fit torps in a heavy launcher. The caracal was a force to be feared. They were paper thin but hit like a train. Same thing with the Kestral. You could fit a single cruise missile in a standard launcher. It was a one shot wonder but man it was a big shot! They were overpowered of course and had to be nerfed. However, it has gone to far and from the looks of it they are not done with the screwing.

I am just glad I had to forsite to train Amarr and gunnery skills up long ago as they are the combat/tank kings now.

Rimhawk
Caldari
Roast and Toast Inc.
Posted - 2005.10.07 09:24:00 - [48]
 

Quote:
They were overpowered of course and had to be nerfed. However, it has gone to far and from the looks of it they are not done with the screwing.


/signed


Darkenral
Posted - 2005.10.08 04:12:00 - [49]
 


Seems to me,

Previously:

Missles > Rails / Projectile / Lasers
Armor Tanking > Shield Tanking

(Making fo an imperfect balace of sorts)

now;

Rails / Projectile / Lasers > Missles
Armor Tanking > Shield Tanking

Absolutely no reason to fly a Raven atm my biggest disappointement in EVE is that I started Caldari b4 I understood the way Caldari ships had been nerfed.

CCP seems to be leaning towards improving defense and in particular there is some armor tanker luv un the dev notes.

The only role that my Raven can perform well atm that the Apoc CANNOT perform better is as the non-tanking BS killing other BS's. Apoc's do EVERYTHING else better.

Kiss all those SP's in Missles away and Train Gunnery / Lasers / Amar BS. Maybe when there are 13k Apocs's Running around CCP will realize that the Raven sucks. Hopefully they will then raise the performace of the Raven not nerf the Apoc.

Dark


greengage
Posted - 2005.10.08 08:03:00 - [50]
 

Now I may have only been playing the game for a year,But all this nonsense about ship balancing has taken its toll on the patience of people (Yes people play this game).
When I first looked into character selection I thought ...Wow ,the Caldari are second only to the Jove...think I'll do that race...Now any race can pulverise the Caldari back to the stone age.
The first point here is that in a game like this there should be inbalances,The races should have Unbalanced ships.Look at the real cold war.N.A.T.O went after the technology edge while the Warsaw Pact was more concerned with numbers,Totally understandable as this was the edge that they had over Germany in WWII.
The way the deavs alter the game is a big problem,Caldari use missiles,The othere races use Turrets.The new turret skills were released as were T2 turret weapons well in advance of the new missile skills.Or the T2 launchers for that matter.
So we have all the other guys using nice weapons while the poor Caldari are left with the same old launchers, which were very nice till they got de-valued.
I think the devs hate us Caldari...................

Wrayeth
EdgeGamers
Situation: Normal
Posted - 2005.10.08 09:02:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Wrayeth on 08/10/2005 09:17:05
Originally by: greengage
I think the devs hate us Caldari


To quote an old dev blog, referring to the shield penalty being removed from MWD: "Some people will say, 'OMGCCPACTUALLYLIKESCALDARI?!!' No, we don't. Amarr for teh win." This was obviously meant in humor at the time, but it's turned out to be all too true.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Things that need to be fixed about missiles:

Heavy missile DPS needs to be increased.

Sig radius penalty needs to be reduced (not removed, reduced).

Cruise missiles need their hitpoints increased so it takes 2 defenders to kill them.

Ballistic Control II CPU needs to be brought in line with Ballistic Control I CPU (turret damage mods do not differentiate between tech 1 and tech 2 CPU needs). Alternately, tech II turret damage mod fitting needs to be increased; however, since turret ships are challenged by powergrid and not CPU, the powergrid need for tech 2 turret damage mods should be increased to the point where they're as difficult to fit on a turret ship as BCU II's are on a siege raven.

Lastly, target painters need to have their effectiveness increased somewhat and have a second version introduced; this second version would be a high-slot module (not a lowslot module, since a target painter is effectively an offensive module). EDIT: If the sig radius penalty for missiles is reduced, then target painters will not need a boost to their effectiveness, though the introduction of a highslot version would still be needed.

The reason for the introduction of the high-slot painter is that turrets have both low and medslot modules to increase tracking, hence they can run one without crippling their armor tank, while shield tankers must cripple their tank to fit a target painter. I would suggest this highslot target painter have a high grid requirement, perhaps 100MW, and a low CPU requirement (i.e. so raven pilots can actually FIT them), perhaps around 15TF, representing a reliance on brute force over finesse in this instance.

Alrighty - all ye trolls may flame away. :P

EDIT: Also, the Caldari ships with a bonus to kinetic missile damage need to have the damage mod reworked into a bonus to all missile damage types for missiles of the appropriate size.

Finally, remove the cerberus' missile flight time bonus and replace it with something...else...like a bonus to launcher reload time (10% reduction/level, so 5 second reload at HAC V?) and also increase the cerb's capacitor to make its tank more competitive with the tanks of ships like the deimos and zealot.


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