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Clyde Sdale
Minmatar
Trade Consortium
Posted - 2005.09.13 14:12:00 - [31]
 

I'm sure it's been mentioned already, but... the "advanced learning skills will help newer players in training that took the vets forever because they didn't have these skills until recently.

Any game you play that doesn't have a cap will have the same situation that Eve has. New players that are behind old players, and whats wrong with that?

When I started Eve, I was far, far, far behind the vets, so what? You are not your skills. You can have fun in this game regardless of how many skill points a vet has.

New players should try to find vets to team up with, as the tactics used will overcome the skill points any day.

I do agree that maybe new characters should get a small boost in the learning skills, but that would also give alts a boost, which the game doesn't need.

Khatred
ReallyPissedOff
Guinea Pigs
Posted - 2005.09.13 14:19:00 - [32]
 

I know that posts on the forum should be constructive, to avoid trolling etc. etc.
But I can't help myself

MWHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH

AHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

ROTFLMAO

Quanteeri
Salty Seaman
Posted - 2005.09.13 14:28:00 - [33]
 

Laughing

A basic fact remains that even if something was done to max out everyones skill points, a point would come not far down the road, maybe another six months, that the new players of that time period would be stuck in the same problematic situation as you're discussing now, that being they are less skilled than older players, with no means of catching up.


FireFoxx80
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2005.09.13 14:28:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Mangus Thermopyle
Look at the new features in this game: dreads, freighters, outposts, tech 2 big ships, pirate implants, and so on. Anyone see a pattern?

It seems like CCP is only improving the game for the oldtimers. If you dont have several billion isk and 20M or more skillpoints, you dont exist. Its as simple as that.

I wonder how long before the new player base discovers this? Bye bye 15k concurrent online players, welcome 5k concurrent online players.


You miss the point dear sir.

What happens when everyone reaches 6m+ SP's after a few months and decides that their current career choice is limited? Look at the lvl60 cap in WoW, players are leaving in droves because there is nothing to stop them leaving once they've reached the maximum point.

mrg29
Minmatar
BarJi
Posted - 2005.09.13 14:30:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Mangus Thermopyle
Originally by: Oriana Fallaci
If you want to help newer players, scrap learning skills.
Agreed. A new player has 2 choises:
1. Skip learning skills and focus on fun skill, but knowing that he does not play the game in the best way.
2. Train learning skills, and spend the first6 weeks or so doing nothing but level 1 missions in his condor.

Its a lose - lose situation, which actually makes the difference between new players and old even bigger (its supposed to be the opposite), since a 6 months old player will usually have spent 2 months or so training learning skills, and need more time before he has regained the time he lost on the learning skills.

If new players started with max in learning skills, then it would help lessen the gap between rookies and the elite.


sorry mate but you are talking *snip*.

i spent however many weeks of my time playing eve training learning skills. why should u or any other new player now get it handed to u just coz u think the gap is too big.

and what is this gap you keep talking about. do u think there are two groups of players in the game - people who have played for over 2 years then people who have only played for 6 months. there is no gap in the player base there are players who are a year ahead og me in game 11 months ahead of me etc etc to plaayers 1 month behind, 2 months behind etc etc.

when will u realise that this game is not a competition - there is no way to WIN the game by being better than anyone else.

edited by eris d, please be respectful of others

Matthew Johnson
Gallente
Johnson Industries
Posted - 2005.09.13 14:31:00 - [36]
 

Ermm...i think noobs have currenlty a much abtter time in eve than 2 year ago. Why? Frigs do matter now in PvE and PvP, plus low minerals now give real cash. Pros get large and expensive toys like dreads, noobs mining equipment like ospreys and barges. Agents in all flavours, for pros in level 4 to noobs in 1er complexes...i think in the last year content for everyone was added. Smile

Simili
Jazz Associates
R i s e
Posted - 2005.09.13 14:35:00 - [37]
 

I like khatred's reply ;)

Shame on me, I haven't read all of the msgs in the thread, but here's what I got to say: when I started playing eve.. people had 5-10m SP more than me and battleships were there... they were big, expensive... I knew I couldn't afford them before a long time, well I just enjoyed the game for what I could afford. Game would not have been as fun as it was if I had been able to use a battleship on the first day.

Roshan longshot
Gallente
Ordos Humanitas
Posted - 2005.09.13 14:42:00 - [38]
 

New players have to start out like all the old players.

It is not our fault that you did not join us in the begining. So why should we get cheated cause a new player feels he is so out classed he can not compete?

It would be saying sorry guys you just wasted several hundred dollars and two years of your life, cause sombody just now got the game and we need to start over.

In all the other games there are "Cheats" "power leveling" and other ways to get a character higher levels. Well Eve-online is not like that. If you dont like that, sorry.

Eve-Online is the only game where in order to get somwhere you really have to work at it. Obtain goals by working, not haveing a 65th level druid power level youConfused

Thanks CCP for a fair and honest game.




dirty thief
Posted - 2005.09.13 14:43:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Mangus Thermopyle
There are lots of things that new players would like, for example:
- arenas for fun PvP
- improved usefulness of middle class ships (cruisers, tech 2 frigates)
- complexes for newbies, for example you cant enter if you are more than 30 days old.
- more and better level 1 missions.
- COSMOS for new players (this is in progress, I know).
- storyline missions that are actually storyline, and not just a courier mission with 'Important' in the text.
- events for new players.
- and so on.

My post might have sounded trollish and provocative, but I think every word I said was the truth. CCP does NOT seem to care much for new and semi-new players.

Or can anyone mention one big new feature that was for new players?


I can name one. EVE.

Before the new player got eve. He couldnt play eve. That seems like a pretty big feature to me.
And we have PVP arenas. They are designated by the red areas on your map.

Altreus
Posted - 2005.09.13 14:50:00 - [40]
 

I wish we could ban these threads or at least sticky one of these with the basic title
"If you don't like the game just leave!"
We "older" players have been through the same growing pains that the younger players have and to be honest you have it a heck of alot easier than we did. We grew up with Eve and had to adapt to its many changes while the new players(6 months or less) are pretty much getting in at a time where alot of the bugs have already been worked out. So shutup already about this. I'm sick of ignorant people whineing about this!!!

KIAHicks
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
KenZoku
Posted - 2005.09.13 14:57:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: KIAHicks on 13/09/2005 15:03:15
Originally by: Mangus Thermopyle
Look at the new features in this game: dreads, freighters, outposts, tech 2 big ships, pirate implants, and so on. Anyone see a pattern?

It seems like CCP is only improving the game for the oldtimers. If you dont have several billion isk and 20M or more skillpoints, you dont exist. Its as simple as that.

I wonder how long before the new player base discovers this? Bye bye 15k concurrent online players, welcome 5k concurrent online players.


Yes it is true,there is no content for the new players. They have no frigates to fly, no cruisers to buy, no battleships to fly, no skills. Oh wait what am I saying, they have LOADS of stuff.

New players don't need new content because of the simple fact that all the content in the game is new to them. They can spend lots of time playing around with frigates/cruisers/battleships, agents, complexes, mining, fighting, trading and anything else. By the time they get bored of that they'll be able to move onto the newer content that CCP has been adding such as Player owned stations, alliances, elite frigs, assault cruisers.....

The only things that really sets new players aside from old-timers is

1) game knowledge - New players will pick this up rapidly if they join a corp with sufficient "old-timers"
2) Flexible skills - Older players may be able to fly more ships than new players. But older players need that to keep the game interesting. As a new player I remember how much fun I had just getting my first real frig and first real cruiser.
I had no interest in flying cruisers from several different races, as one was enough. Its only after playing the game for long enough that you want to move onto new races.
New players can still become as "powerful" as an old player by selective skill training, only in few ship types.

Chucky
HEAVEN'S DEATH DEALER'S
V.I.R.A.L.
Posted - 2005.09.13 14:58:00 - [42]
 

I've been playing off and on for over 2 years and I haven't finished the tutorial yetConfused

Gericault m0id
Gallente Mercantile Exchange
Posted - 2005.09.13 15:00:00 - [43]
 

Join a corp that has an outpost so you can brag about it to your new player friends?

Magnum VII
Caldari
Doomheim
Posted - 2005.09.13 15:03:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Magnum VII on 13/09/2005 15:09:14
Originally by: Mangus Thermopyle
It seems like CCP is only improving the game for the oldtimers. If you dont have several billion isk and 20M or more skillpoints, you dont exist. Its as simple as that.

I wonder how long before the new player base discovers this? Bye bye 15k concurrent online players, welcome 5k concurrent online players.
First off, I am new.
Don't be so doom and gloom.

Man it never fails, there are always these nay Sayers on the online games.

It came in by the ton when I played CoH, holy cow it was a freaking Super Hero game!

You don't make a game where there is this glooming cliff dropoff of nothing to do after playing a while.

If you want particular new stuff for new people then just say so for goodness sakes.

Dreez
Destructive Influence
Posted - 2005.09.13 15:14:00 - [45]
 


The only thing in EVE thats going down the drain is the
PvP part, where you have socalled "Alliances" running from
you even with the numbers on their sides... bores the h3ll out of me Evil or Very Mad.

Andicuri Vas
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2005.09.13 15:38:00 - [46]
 

I am a 40 year old father of 2 with a gut and a smoking habit. I want to play pro football, but I don't like running or working out. I don't want to learn the play book and I don't have time for practice. It doesn't matter to me that Jerry Rice has spent his entire life training and perfecting his skills, I demand that The San Fransisco 49r's put me on the starting roster this Sunday!!!..eh..With a "No-Touch Rule", just for me.

What is with the sudden n00b preoccupation with Uber-ness?

EvE is harsh....get a helmet.



A
V


CCP Eris Discordia

Posted - 2005.09.13 15:39:00 - [47]
 

Please make sure your replies are constructive and respectful.

Thank youSmile

McBane
Gallente
AFK Initiative
Posted - 2005.09.13 15:51:00 - [48]
 

Actually, thinking about this since my last comment…

I think that CCP should over time gradually increase the SP given at start to the learning skills, thus reducing but not removing the gap between new and old players.

This way new players, still start with practically no skills, but train quicker than the older players would have done back when they started and not have to train the learning skills as much, lessening but not removing the gap.

Really, when the advanced learning skills came out, this should have been around the point where new players would start with around level 4 of all basic learning skills.

As an old player its hard to see it truly from a new players point of view since we can never go back to being a new player – even buying a new account, it’s not the same. And to some degree I think a new players experience now is quite different to the one we had.

But, I do remember as a new player the excitement of training new skills and learning new things – those must not be lost. I also remember the feeling of OMG, how can I ever compete with the old timers – this can only be much worse now.
But back then, you could be make money from tech 1 sales and be competitive at PVP in low end ships. I was a master trader in a few months from a new account, but to trade at the same level now I’ve had to train a few million SPs of new skills or I’m just not competitive enough. Back when I started there was no tech 2 kit to use, so you were competitive with the cheap tech 1 kit you had.

So surely new players are losing out with the skills gap – they probably don’t realise this because they are new, but is it making Eve less appealing because the its harder to make it – and requires more skills, training and thus time in Eve now?

The above solution is an easy fix and would not affect old timers at all, but would make it a little bit easier for new players – lessening the time taken to get to a good level.

Basically, what I am saying is raise the level for new players along with the old timers – just not quite as quick. Thus retain a skills gap but lower the rate at which it widens. An ever widening skills gap can't be good for the game as a whole.

Pesky LaRue
Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2005.09.13 16:23:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Mangus Thermopyle
Look at the new features in this game: dreads, freighters, outposts, tech 2 big ships, pirate implants, and so on. Anyone see a pattern?

It seems like CCP is only improving the game for the oldtimers. If you dont have several billion isk and 20M or more skillpoints, you dont exist. Its as simple as that.

I wonder how long before the new player base discovers this? Bye bye 15k concurrent online players, welcome 5k concurrent online players.



is this your first MMOG?

the way this always works is that they give you a game and then, over time, they add new content that is generally aimed at who?

those that have been around longest and are therefore more likely to WANT (or need) new stuff to keep them ingame.

there's already MORE than enough here to keep newplayers busy for a long-ass time, but if you don't take care of older/maturer/longer-time customers, games die as people get bored and drift away (look at SWG for a PRIME example of how to kill a game)

Deadeye Dave
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2005.09.13 16:29:00 - [50]
 

I'm a fairly new Eve player and think that it would be unfair if the newer players were handed all the learning skills to begin with. If this was done all those people that have bothered training learning skills to high levels would feel like they've wasted time.
There is already loads of content in Eve for the newer players to work towards anyway and the content they are adding is good because it gives the older players a reason to keep playing. Also the Civiallian moduales are there for newer players who haven't yet trained higher skills.
I dont see any reason to complain about CCP not giving stuff to newer players. The content that they do add is for everyone, although many people won't have the right skills yet. I think most people agree roughly with what i'm saying.

Spleef
Posted - 2005.09.13 16:42:00 - [51]
 

It can seem like an uphill struggle, but as long little gems like the thorax remain unnerfed, its possible to participate and be effective in PvP with just a few months of carefully chosen skills :)

XKittyX
Serenity Inc
Posted - 2005.09.13 16:49:00 - [52]
 

Basically no-one can be everything. To get access to the high level stuff you have to be part of something. Everyone has a part to play in that. Whining is not helping you. You can achieve things. There's more options open to players nowadays. Back in the old days evryone went down the same route, rushing for a BS after doing lots of mining. So many paths to explore, you can do something you really want to do and you can do it well.


Whoever suggested starting with more skills/attributes as time progresses - thats a very good idea.

And Dave ^^^ that sig is awesome.

Demarcus
Killjoy.
Posted - 2005.09.13 16:49:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Mangus Thermopyle
Originally by: Oriana Fallaci
If you want to help newer players, scrap learning skills.
Agreed. A new player has 2 choises:
1. Skip learning skills and focus on fun skill, but knowing that he does not play the game in the best way.
2. Train learning skills, and spend the first6 weeks or so doing nothing but level 1 missions in his condor.

Its a lose - lose situation, which actually makes the difference between new players and old even bigger (its supposed to be the opposite), since a 6 months old player will usually have spent 2 months or so training learning skills, and need more time before he has regained the time he lost on the learning skills.

If new players started with max in learning skills, then it would help lessen the gap between rookies and the elite.

I have been in game 8 months and am just now getting around to training my learning skills to 5 and starting on the advanced. So quit your baseless *****ing and whining. You want a free pass. You want the benefits without the work, well tough sh*t.

Demarcus
Killjoy.
Posted - 2005.09.13 16:53:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Spleef
It can seem like an uphill struggle, but as long little gems like the thorax remain unnerfed, its possible to participate and be effective in PvP with just a few months of carefully chosen skills :)

A one week old nOOb in a t1 frig with a scrambler/webber can be a huge help in PvP.

Filiberto
Amarr
The Drekla Consortium
Posted - 2005.09.13 17:08:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Filiberto on 13/09/2005 17:10:14
Originally by: Mangus Thermopyle
There are lots of things that new players would like, for example:
- arenas for fun PvP
- improved usefulness of middle class ships (cruisers, tech 2 frigates)
- complexes for newbies, for example you cant enter if you are more than 30 days old.
- more and better level 1 missions.
- COSMOS for new players (this is in progress, I know).
- storyline missions that are actually storyline, and not just a courier mission with 'Important' in the text.
- events for new players.
- and so on.

My post might have sounded trollish and provocative, but I think every word I said was the truth. CCP does NOT seem to care much for new and semi-new players.

Or can anyone mention one big new feature that was for new players?


this is my version:

There are lots of things that old players would like, for example:
- arenas for fun PvP
- improved usefulness of middle class ships (cruisers, tech 2 frigates)
- more and better level 3-4 missions.
- COSMOS for new players (this is in progress, I know).(what are you complaining about then?)
- storyline missions that are actually storyline, and not just a courier mission with 'Important' in the text.
- events for new players.(there is NO age difference in events new players can joinj them just as old players can.)
- and so on.

My post might have sounded trollish and provocative, but I think every word I said was the truth. CCP does NOT seem to care much for new and semi-new players.

Quote:
Or can anyone mention one big new feature that was for new players?

I CAN!!! better and improved tutorial (it was even worse when I started)

MAcheTT3
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2005.09.13 18:05:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Mangus Thermopyle
Look at the new features in this game: dreads, freighters, outposts, tech 2 big ships, pirate implants, and so on. Anyone see a pattern?

It seems like CCP is only improving the game for the oldtimers. If you dont have several billion isk and 20M or more skillpoints, you dont exist. Its as simple as that.

I wonder how long before the new player base discovers this? Bye bye 15k concurrent online players, welcome 5k concurrent online players.


So your suggestion is what? Not to have these things? To only have things for newer players...? What's the problem with having content for veteran players anyway? It's not like there's no content for newer players...

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.09.13 18:11:00 - [57]
 

The other day, I ran into a guy who had just come back. He played 3 months at the start of EVE, and had nearly nothing in terms of skill points and money compared to any veteran.

I spent 3 hours listing things to him that would affect him in just the next few days that had been added or changed.

EVE is not going "downhill." In fact, if you stopped whining and left, it would go uphill even more... Laughing

Pyro Miner
Dutch Powerrr
Posted - 2005.09.13 18:21:00 - [58]
 

the guy is right, the new guys need faster training.. ccp must boost there attribute points to 999-999-999-999-999 so they can train a bit faster then the oldtimers

ccp has done nothing for the noobs.. to repay this mistake give then all a dread or 2 with ability to fly in all security systems

ccp do it now, the noobs are bored, they have totally nothing to do, comon make something for them

Very HappySmileSadSurprisedShockedConfusedCoolLaughingMadRazzEmbarassedCrying or Very sadEvil or Very MadTwisted EvilRolling EyesWinkExclamationQuestionIdeaArrowNeutralYARRRR!!ughugh

Malthros Zenobia
Posted - 2005.09.13 18:23:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Mangus Thermopyle
There are lots of things that new players would like, for example:
- arenas for fun PvP
- improved usefulness of middle class ships (cruisers, tech 2 frigates)
- complexes for newbies, for example you cant enter if you are more than 30 days old.
- more and better level 1 missions.
- COSMOS for new players (this is in progress, I know).
- storyline missions that are actually storyline, and not just a courier mission with 'Important' in the text.
- events for new players.
- and so on.

My post might have sounded trollish and provocative, but I think every word I said was the truth. CCP does NOT seem to care much for new and semi-new players.

Or can anyone mention one big new feature that was for new players?



You remind me of how I thought things worked before I joined CAIN, and spoke/flew with people who've played for months/years. Tech 2 frigs, coupled with the right mods/skills, are crazy. When I was still on my trial account I did a complex in my merlin, and an Eagle came in while I was getting ready to give up. I stuck around and watched it simply dominate the place. Ran a lvl 4 mission in a gang with a cerb tanking, i don't think it ever went under 75% of it's shields, sure I was using 5 heavy launchers from 50km, another guy usied cruise from like 125km or so, but alot of new players vastly underestimate ships simply based on their stats, until they see them in action.


A person with a t2 frig and skills trained up for it trained (sure it'll take a couple months, this isn't world of borecraft), is a force to be reckoned with. A few days ago a corpmate brought an intercerptor to help me with a mission and test its setup. According to him, it sucked, lacked good rof and such, but it was still reaching and killing the drones before my cruiser even got close to being in range.


In short, do as I did. Speak with older players, learn from them, and theed their words. I've picked up invaluble information from many, and by far the most useful was what I was told/shown relating to ships and skills of various levels.


Arenas wouldn't make all that much sense. Are you just asking for the ability to pvp in high sec space against a set person with no inferferance?
Middle class ships are useful as hell already. I'm looking forward to getting myself an eagle or hawk, then a cerb.
Newbie complexes would be interesting, but they'd probqably be weak enough that decent missions would give better rewards.
*skips cosmos*
there is no real 'story' for eve short of what is made by those who play it. Sure some of the 'storyline' missions are weird, like the one I did last night, transporting some financial info, but considering it got me a limted beta neutral boost, which can sell for a good 15mil or so, I'm not going to complain... :P
Events, in general, seem rather spur of the moment. Newbieish ones would be interesting, but would alienate most players probably, or they'd have to log weaker alts.

Oriana Fallaci
Posted - 2005.09.13 18:46:00 - [60]
 

Edited by: Oriana Fallaci on 13/09/2005 18:47:39
Quote:
So would you agree to give the older players retroactive skillpoints for the time periods from before the introduction of Adv.Learning skills?


No, I certainly wouldn't. And, honestly, you completely seem to miss my point. CCP decided that they wanted . learning skills to be introduced later in the game, thus older players did not have the opportunity to benefit from them beginning, and they will never get recompensated for that. Nothing will ever change that, like it or not, you older players were penalized back then.

Now, my proposal does not address that. What I want is that younger players can focus on skills that give them new opportunities ingame, so that they can have much more fun early on. However, all players will be recompensated who did train these skills and did not yet get their SP expenses for them covered.

The time period before adv. learnings has nothing to do with that.

Quote:
I'm sure it's been mentioned already, but... the "advanced learning skills will help newer players in training that took the vets forever because they didn't have these skills until recently.
Any game you play that doesn't have a cap will have the same situation that Eve has. New players that are behind old players, and whats wrong with that?



Well they will help them, but at the expense of a lot of time they have to invest in the beginning, and that just has a very negative impact on enjoying the game. Set them immediately to level 4 or 5, nothing will change in the long run, old players will only lose one month of their lead, but young players will have much more fun in the beginning.

And arenas would just be really cool, one of the prime problems with Eve right now is that it just takes sooo long to get a good fight.


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