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Joram McRory
Caldari
eXceed Inc.
Posted - 2005.09.09 09:22:00 - [1]
 

I am so fed up with all the ASCN vs. NBSI vitriol & hatred. Both groups are my friends and I hate to see them.

a)Making themselves look stupid
b)Continue to deepen and widen the divide between themselves

Here is my personal view. I can resolve being friends with both & I hope others can too.

I speak from a relatively rare position as having been an active member of both E-R and now ACSN.

In the dark old days at the end of the Xetic Alliance I was a member of a small & dieing Xetic corp (Del’Armgo) and seeing the way things were stacking up in the south I decided to cut my losses and Join E-R. This was mainly because a lot of old XF friends had gone to E-R but mainly so I could learn to PvP.

At that time E-R we a stand alone Empire corp who’s only ties to XF were through the social links of ex XF members back into the Alliance. E-R was happily playing with our empire wars and having fun. But we occasionally popped down to Immensia to help out Black Lance, Maza, and the other local Corps to fight off Shinra & ATUK. This was partly because of old loyalties, but mainly for a laugh.

(Incidentally I well remember the night ATUK logged off half it’s fleet to keep things even, and our pod charge for the short ride home afterwards! Good times!)

My understanding (and this is just what I was told my my leadership) of why TMPL & MAZA left the IGA was that E-R had been asked by Xetic leadership to annoy ATUK in Empire & the other two corps decided to come and help too a few days later. An XF Corp even sent E-R 1 billion ISK (more than had ever been in the corp wallet, by a considerable margin) to help prosecute this war!

I cannot see how E-R (who were not XF any way), and the other two can be accused of back stabbing in this as they were only trying to help as best they could. I.e Small corps are better for small scale involvements rather than 0.0 blob wars. OK the XF leadership had asked everyone to relocate further south to concentrate forces, but I still maintain that the typical MAZA/TMPL small mobile fleet was better suited to empire engagements.

Then a week later XF ended and they found that thier home had been traded for CLS/DDC's security. Wouldn't anyone be a little annoyed?

So that is my defence of NBSI actions.

Now on to ASCN:

Xetic was doomed! This has been gone over so many times it’s not worth debating. It was a bloated nightmare of an alliance with very little PvP backbone. The question really was how would it die. It could have gone down fighting with most of everyone’s personal investment in time blown to bits and hundreds of people left running to empire with nothing left to show for months in game. This would have been a noble if strategically naïve end.

Instead CLS/DDC took the bull by the horns and did a deal. This preserved what was good in XF and laid the foundation for the Alliance which built the first outpost in EVE. OK to do this they had to concede something, and naturally it was not their home regions they gave up. Is it a little much to still bear a grudge for this, 6 months later? I think so. Lets be realistic about this Much better 2 well defended regions and relative peace in the south that a long drawn out defeat and nothing left at all.

In summary: Both groups are good guys. I have flown with them both and respect them both. Both groups have some forum flamers – so what, that’s what forums are for. As Josh said in another thread: at the end of the day it is only a game and other than having a good RP reason for wars I think we are all guilty of taking this whole thing way to seriously.

NBSI – let it go, CLS/DDC did the only sensible thing at the time and have achieved a lot since then.

ASCN – try to understand what it is to have your home ‘given away’ and be understanding of how the TMPL/MAZA guys felt.

my 2p^^

Will Fireblade
Minmatar
Maza Nostra
HELL4S
Posted - 2005.09.09 09:25:00 - [2]
 

Joram is Primary... Joram is Primary...

Joram McRory
Caldari
eXceed Inc.
Posted - 2005.09.09 09:28:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Joram McRory on 09/09/2005 11:34:49
Will - I resolved myself to that when I left E-RRolling Eyes


Will Fireblade
Minmatar
Maza Nostra
HELL4S
Posted - 2005.09.09 09:34:00 - [4]
 

eh funny *snip* you still gonna be primary Twisted Evil

Flame Removed.Laurelin

Silvitni
Caldari
In nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti
Posted - 2005.09.09 09:37:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Silvitni on 09/09/2005 09:38:41
Good post Joram Very Happy

Edit: I might come and visit you in the weekend Smile

Liet Traep
Minmatar
Dark-Rising
IT Alliance
Posted - 2005.09.09 10:05:00 - [6]
 

Good post Joram and I appreciate the spirit in which it was meant.

I still think ASCN did their mates dirty the way they founded their alliance. Since they've never taken any steps to make it up to any of the people they wronged and they honestly don't believe they did anything wrong nothing has changed. 1 month later, 6 months later, 2 years later it doesn't matter. Wrong is wrong. And I see no reason to change my feelings on the matter.

I do agree that NBSI AND ASCN have spammed, slandered, insulted and generally been disgustingly mean to each other. And NBSI does try to avoid smack talking these days with varying degrees of success. Best I can see our two groups of players doing at this time is agreeing that we don't get along and leaving it at that.

Just my thoughts. I'm sure some people see things differently and I'm guessing to see who flames my response first.

Gazmus
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.09.09 10:21:00 - [7]
 

Nice post Joram hope all is well.

My opinion is who cares they aint blue lets shoot them and have a laugh Very Happy

Dark Shikari13
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2005.09.09 10:23:00 - [8]
 

I did always wonder why NBSI and ASCN seemed to have so much hate towards each other. It just didn't make any sense.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2005.09.09 10:26:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Dark Shikari13
I did always wonder why NBSI and ASCN seemed to have so much hate towards each other. It just didn't make any sense.


well imho it's like Itchy and Scratchy: everyone needs to have an arch-enemy. not having one it's like rolling stones without the rock, or Abbot and Costello without Abbot(sp?).

..anyways you get the point, and yes, I agree with joram.

Primer Xenius
Minmatar
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2005.09.09 10:29:00 - [10]
 

What should ASCN make up for? The backbone of XETIC which became ASCN, dropped the fat as was illustrated by the fact that XETIC could not hold a single region even though their combined member count was vastly larger than the enemy after the split. Yes, there were pvpers and corps that did fight but the vast majority of XETIC was utterly inactive.

Yet people blame the ASCN corps for what exactly?
Perhaps their to blame for not fighting on while the majority sat in empire and did nothing? Why the hell should they?

Once ASCN cut their deal and made their own alliance, it was XETIC offshoots that time and again attacked ASCN here and ingame. ASCN didn't KOS anyone at first, let people get their stuff and fought on in the war against the coalition in which it won its regions. XETIC, fat and bloated died arrogantly blaming everyone but their own inaction.


Nafri
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.09.09 10:34:00 - [11]
 

Bah, I miss Xetic. The last alliance with a politcal agenda, and real goals to achieve.


Since their doom, nothing interesting happened

Rexthor Hammerfists
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2005.09.09 10:43:00 - [12]
 

good post.

Joram McRory
Caldari
eXceed Inc.
Posted - 2005.09.09 10:57:00 - [13]
 

I missed out a bit of the story above:

How did the hostilities start?

This bit always confused me. E-R were camping somewhere (EC-?? maybe) when we saw lots of ASCN in local. We all got chatting and agreed to keep them at +10. Then in our shared chat we heard that TMPL had CLS & DDC to -10 and after a bit of chatting E-R agreed to align standings with our mates & Lunas told the DDC fleet this. 1 min later ASCN jumped in and attacked us. I got stuck on the gate & lost a Harpy.

All the forum flaming started then.

If only we'd agreed on a 0.0 staus as a compromise I'm sure none of this would have happend.

Note - this is just fo the historical record

Cartiff
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2005.09.09 11:33:00 - [14]
 

NBSI - ASCN war will continue until either 1 of is destroyed (Extremely unlikely as we're over 100 jumps apart) or a huuuge ass evil baddy comes alony and knocks over all the sand castles.

I enjoy our little RP war, it was founded as a means to get revenge and a constantly supply of PVP.

EVE's more fun when (as someone said) you have an arch enemy.
Although NBSI is tiny in comparison, we have heart and a reckless enthusism for PVP. We've been known to suicde ships into enemies cos it was a laugh.

Personnally, i like CLS, you gotta repsect them for building CLS up and ASCN.
DDC and me(E-R) have never got on, doubtful we ever will.
TFD, lovely ladz, and i still miss the old hardcore group of Syncore'rs

to end, as always in my traditional manner....... NBSI 4TW

Joram McRory
Caldari
eXceed Inc.
Posted - 2005.09.09 11:40:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Joram McRory on 09/09/2005 11:43:02
Edited by: Joram McRory on 09/09/2005 11:42:15
Cartiff - Thats exactly why I loved my time in E-R ^^

An excellent attitude - this is a game lets have fun.

It's just when it all get's blown out of proportion and becomes personal that makes me sad. I have no aspirations of brokering a peace between ASCN and NBSI. I just wish the apparently "real" hatred would go away

Fitz Chivalry
Gallente
Vengeance Imperium
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2005.09.09 11:46:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Fitz Chivalry on 09/09/2005 11:46:53
I know that I have no personal ill will towards the NBSI guys, it was fun in the [5] war seeing who would have the highest negative (highest negative, does that make sense? anyway) pvp score between myself and Liet Trap Smile

Since having Joram in our ranks I have come to understand a bit better how NBSI feel, but my own experience of being in ASCN has been a positive one and I feel like they are, generally speaking, an honourable bunch and do try to do the right thing.

I was not in Xetic for that long before it folded but I do remember being really impressed by MAZA and their dedication in the Xetic war (I didnt really know much about Black Lance or E-R (other than the infamous gang member shooting incident Smile)).

I am sure many people in both camps wish that things between the two groups had gone differently post-Xetic collapse but i do remember from that time was that is was pretty chaotic and things moved very very quickly and I am not sure that there was tons of planning involved (I appreciate I may be being a bit naive here but I would prefer to thing the best of people until its proven otherwise (with the exception of ATUK of whom I find its always safest to assume the worst Razz).

I would hope in the future that there can be a bit more friendship going forward - there are lots of people who like to RP the bad guys in this game that everyone could be happy to shoot, without us going after each other.

Anyway, I lok forward to this thread starting off in a positive manner and degenerating into another flame fest around the middle of page 2.

MyFire
Gallente
Maza Nostra
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2005.09.09 12:16:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: MyFire on 09/09/2005 12:27:57
The only think that bothered me (and my corp tbh) in our souther times, was that we were not informed of anything at all, allthough it was planed.

MAZA, PH, E-R, TMPL hold immensea for a long time, with a heavy cost, but noone thought of us. I remember the days that in alliance channel we were blaming the carebears, but when northen XF asked for help, the answer was... "cannot m8's... come to south... we r fighting MASS". So what ? We were fighting [5]+Red's. Much greater threat ! And we couldn't find out the "why's" in a decision that would turn our backs like this.

The way I see it 3 of the biggest corps in XF decided that it was time for XF to disband. And we didn't like that noone asked us anything. We were just "informed".

Soo us a conclusion, in a hypothetical senario that NBSI + ASCN were together in one space, creating a new alliance or just being allies, who was to insure us that in the future ASCN wouldn't "decide" again that it was time "we left" ???

This could happen to anyone ofc, but 2ice by the same guys... too much even to think about it.


Rillian
Caldari
Black Lance
Posted - 2005.09.09 12:24:00 - [18]
 

Well whats got my dander up is that I and some corpmates have a crapload of stuff in immensea that I can not retrive or place up on escrow cause the ships have mods on them. I know should have removed my crap from immensea but I thought we could hold , then all hell broke loose and things cascaded into a cataclysmic collapse of xetic. Have even asked politly of (5) and ASCN but we basically got told to get stuffed. Twisted Evil


So I hold grudges YARRRR!!

by the way Nice post Joram Cool

Joram McRory
Caldari
eXceed Inc.
Posted - 2005.09.09 12:32:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Joram McRory on 09/09/2005 12:32:25
Rillian - yup I still have stuff in The Vale too Sad I think the new remote repackage function might help us both here & allow the kit to be put on escrow.

Elenia Kheynes
Caldari
Avatars of Doom
Apocalyptica.
Posted - 2005.09.09 13:06:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Elenia Kheynes on 09/09/2005 13:06:12
Originally by: Cartiff
I enjoy our little RP war, it was founded as a means to get revenge and a constantly supply of PVP.

EVE's more fun when (as someone said) you have an arch enemy.



you spoke my mind m8 Very Happy


There is one thing I don't understand tho... Do you really need a thread to realize it's just Roleplay if people call ASCN backstabbers, traitors or greatest alliance in the universe ?

As for the "xetic was doom" comment, I'd like to point the CLS+DDC could the most democraticly in the universe kick most inactive corp out of xetic. This was true before the war, it was still true during it (both of them had majority of votes). Thing is, they wanted the war against [5], they got it, then realized it was too big for them. Since they couldn't be arsed to do a full cleaning during war time and also realized they were gonna loose the war anyway, they prefered to create their own alliance.


There is only 1 lesson to remember from xetic: recruitement for 0.0 alliances must be extremly selective but once corporations are in, alliance should get rid of them if their activity is lowering.




Cartiff
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2005.09.09 14:25:00 - [21]
 

VIRII come to NBSI peeps, olyyy, we miss you man

Your great ladz.

And in the theme of dungeon keeper...

Come with us, join us
Come with us, join us
Come with us, join us
Come with us, join us
Come with us, join us
Come with us, join us
Come with us, join us
Come with us, join us
Come with us, join us
Come with us, join us
Come with us, join us
We will teach you things

Joshua Calvert
Caldari
Rule One
Posted - 2005.09.09 14:39:00 - [22]
 

I have no clue what olyyy just tried to say.

Fitz Chivalry
Gallente
Vengeance Imperium
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2005.09.09 14:46:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Joshua Calvert
I have no clue what olyyy just tried to say.


I think it was:

DDC and CLS are very autocratic corporations.

Rather than get rid of the corps that were letting Xetic down and keep Xetic intact they thought it would be easier to simply form ASCN and pull out of Xetic.

Alliances in general should be careful about recruiting corps into their ranks as there are many that will take a lot and give little in return.

Angelus X
Caldari
NibbleTek
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2005.09.09 14:49:00 - [24]
 

Nice post Joram Very Happy

Personally, I think there's nothing better than having atleast one "arch-enemy". You know if an NBSI fleet comes to the south, or ASCN space, you can garuntee we'll have around 50% extra people comming out ready to fight Laughing

As for the whole hatred issue. Some people hate more than others. Even though it's a game I don't see the harm in that hatred, as long as it stays in the game (which imo, the forums are just an extension off).

MAXSuicide
Caldari
Core Impulse
Posted - 2005.09.09 15:01:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: MAXSuicide on 09/09/2005 15:01:56
Originally by: Cartiff
NBSI - ASCN war will continue until either 1 of is destroyed (Extremely unlikely as we're over 100 jumps apart) or a huuuge ass evil baddy comes alony and knocks over all the sand castles.


i used to spend ages at the beach building cool sandcastles, then there was always some nub that would come running along and trample it down.

Mad

Rei Storm
Amarr
SuperCell.
Posted - 2005.09.09 15:17:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: MAXSuicide
Edited by: MAXSuicide on 09/09/2005 15:01:56
Originally by: Cartiff
NBSI - ASCN war will continue until either 1 of is destroyed (Extremely unlikely as we're over 100 jumps apart) or a huuuge ass evil baddy comes alony and knocks over all the sand castles.


i used to spend ages at the beach building cool sandcastles, then there was always some nub that would come running along and trample it down.

Mad


You can see the emotional scarrs... Evil or Very Mad

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2005.09.09 15:20:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Grimpak on 09/09/2005 15:20:53
Originally by: MAXSuicide
Edited by: MAXSuicide on 09/09/2005 15:01:56
Originally by: Cartiff
NBSI - ASCN war will continue until either 1 of is destroyed (Extremely unlikely as we're over 100 jumps apart) or a huuuge ass evil baddy comes alony and knocks over all the sand castles.


i used to spend ages at the beach building cool sandcastles, then there was always some nub that would come running along and trample it down.

Mad



damn them noobs Evil or Very Mad

Timos
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2005.09.09 15:24:00 - [28]
 

*snip* Posting with an unidentified character and characters in NPC corporations in this forum is prohibited. If you wish to participate in the discussions here, be sure to have your corporation and or alliance status ticked in your forum settings. -Wachtmeister ([email protected])


thelung187
Caldari
Guiding Hand Social Club
Dystopia Alliance
Posted - 2005.09.09 15:33:00 - [29]
 

ASCN > NBSI any day of the week, for two reasons:

1. ASCN actually have pvp skill (versus NBSI, who put 4 ravens and a megathron in a pos against my hac and two others)
2. ASCN don't smack the bajesus out of you and act like they are the best thing since vagina. My god, the tripe from NBSI would make you think that we should all cancel ours subs because Game Over just popped up on our collective screens from their leet tech1 frig usage.

ATUK may smack, but we back it up.

HehatesUsall
Gallente
Euphoria Released
Posted - 2005.09.09 15:47:00 - [30]
 

*snip* Posting with an unidentified character and characters in NPC corporations in this forum is prohibited. If you wish to participate in the discussions here, be sure to have your corporation and or alliance status ticked in your forum settings. -Wachtmeister ([email protected])



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