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Rexthor Hammerfists
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2005.08.22 13:30:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Rexthor Hammerfists on 22/08/2005 13:32:20
Is pure caldari i have only poor gunnery skills - and would to have something like a t2 kestrel, with af resistances.

i read some days ago bout an idea to change the hawk highslot layouts, to 4 turrets and maybe 1 empty one.

to b able to fit 4 standards the pg and cpu on the hawk might have to b changed,
other numbers and details would have to worked out, same for the bonuses.

instead of the merlin, a kestrel skil would b nice too ;)

ig uess not many would miss the hawk, as its the step brother of the harpy, and theres no reason to take a hawk over the harpy - only isk maybe, which isnt balance relevant.

Justin Cody
Caldari
T.A.L.O.N. Company
B4D W01F
Posted - 2005.08.22 18:14:00 - [2]
 

I agree, make the Hawk a missile boat with a RoF bonus or flight time bonus, but a damage bonus is not needed.

Aldelphius
Carbide Industries
Posted - 2005.08.24 11:09:00 - [3]
 

I like the hawk. too bad its uses are limited because of the high slot layout. making it a missile ship would be in line with the caldari theme of 1 missile boat in each ship type.

Jacob Majestic
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2005.08.24 19:37:00 - [4]
 

Just make it have 3 turret slots and 3 launcher slots so you could fly it either way...?

Tobiaz
Spacerats
Posted - 2005.08.25 12:14:00 - [5]
 

Many people like the Hawk because you can buy two of the for the price of one Harpy.

Rexthor Hammerfists
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2005.08.25 13:31:00 - [6]
 

like i said above alry,
the price is player made, and doesnt have anything todo with balance.

Rexthor Hammerfists
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2005.08.25 13:31:00 - [7]
 

atm the caldaris have 2 "rail" afs, both with bonuses to guns.

but with one rail and one missile assault frigs, more ppl could use the afs

theRaptor
Caldari
Tactical Operations
Posted - 2005.08.25 13:55:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists
atm the caldaris have 2 "rail" afs, both with bonuses to guns.

but with one rail and one missile assault frigs, more ppl could use the afs


Train up rail skills maybe. The amount of people that only have missile skills is vanishingly small. Seriously caldari that whine about having to train rails make as much sense as Gallente that whine about having to train anything other then drones.

Rexthor Hammerfists
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2005.08.25 15:34:00 - [9]
 

id fly a harpy if i would train up my gunnery skills,
current hawk does nuthin better thena harpy so why not change it abit?


theRaptor
Caldari
Tactical Operations
Posted - 2005.08.26 06:58:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists
id fly a harpy if i would train up my gunnery skills,
current hawk does nuthin better thena harpy so why not change it abit?




Like most Assault frigs. Rolling Eyes

There is the good assault frig, and the "PVE" assault frig. Personally I use hawks because they are cheaper then harpies and still good enough to OMGBBQ Intys. But I prefer the Ishkur now.

Rexthor Hammerfists
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2005.08.26 15:04:00 - [11]
 

Price = Demand,

guess why the harpy,
altho it takes the same to make like the hawk,
so much more expensive then the hawk, cause all want the harpy instead of the hawk.

and having one good and one bad af doesnt make much sense ;)

the gallentes have a drone af, and a turret one, as example.

FalloutBoy
Posted - 2005.08.28 06:54:00 - [12]
 

hawk is a great gate tackler...proper setup will grab any ceptor in the game no matter what (requires good sklls and reflexes)

Rexthor Hammerfists
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2005.08.28 15:49:00 - [13]
 

another higslot layout wouldnt make it a a less good tackler,

and for the frig killing, currently the harpy can do it much better,
and if u use a missile setup with rails on it - ud like a pure missile setup much more id guess ;)

Crellion
Parental Control
Merciless.
Posted - 2005.08.29 23:56:00 - [14]
 

I have trained rails II and love my harpy. Still, having trained them, I see no reason to use the Hawk, whatsoever. It a silly useless ship imo and the original post is SIGNED with much affection.

Malachi Nefzen
Caldari
Insane Decision
Anarchy.
Posted - 2005.08.30 02:06:00 - [15]
 

hawk ftl

MAKE IT A KESTREL!

Kyozoku
Posted - 2005.08.30 06:01:00 - [16]
 

I don't see how it would work because the hawk has to inherit its range bonus from the merlin just like all afs inherit their t1 bonus. If anything I'd like to see the missile bonus dropped for a second shield tank boost like - shield booster cap need or a bonus to booster speed.

Kai Lae
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2005.08.30 23:17:00 - [17]
 

Stated by me several other times elsewhere - make the hawk have 3 launcher and 2 turret hardpoints, and add a 5th midslot. Actually the vengance and jaguar also need another slot but that's a different topic.

theRaptor
Caldari
Tactical Operations
Posted - 2005.08.31 00:44:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists
Price = Demand,

guess why the harpy,
altho it takes the same to make like the hawk,
so much more expensive then the hawk, cause all want the harpy instead of the hawk.

and having one good and one bad af doesnt make much sense ;)

the gallentes have a drone af, and a turret one, as example.


Yes and the Enyo is the price of a Harpy, while the Ishkur is the price of a Hawk. Thats because most people in this game at least want to be the best soloer possible. And if a ship is 5% more powerful then another they will take it.

Vex Seraphim
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2005.08.31 14:21:00 - [19]
 

On one hand, i'd love it if they would give hawk 4 missile slots.
on the other, i don't want a 100% increase in pricing :/

SpeedoMan
Caldari
Posted - 2005.08.31 16:01:00 - [20]
 

The hawk definitely needs a change, and the point is well made that it doesn't fit in with the design of other AF's for other races, or the Caldari racial characteristics. Right now, Caldari have 1 "bad" AF and 1 "good" AF. Really, the Harpy is a specialized AF, and thus much more useful than the more versatile Hawk. The only bonus is that it's cheap. The other races seem to have 2 AF that each specialize in something different, Ishkur & Enyo being a good example of 2 AF embracing a races's specialties.

Harpy is a specialized mini-rail platform, which makes perfect sense & follows one of the Caldari race archetypes perfectly. The Hawk, however, falls short. The other Caldari archetype is missiles, and it stands to reason that the 2nd Caldari AF should be a missile platform descended from the Kestrel.

The Merlin has a 4/3/2 slot layout, with 2 turret, 2 launcher hi-slots. 150cpu/35grid. 300shield/225armor. Bonuses to 5% shield HP, 10% hybrid range.

The Harpy then properly inherits the 10% range bonus for frig skill (really 50%), drops the 5% shield HP bonus, gains another 10% range bonus per AF skill, and 5% damage bonus. 5/4/2 layout, 4 turret, 1 launcher. 175cpu/50grid. 625shield/325armor, and of course the mad kin/therm resists.

The Kestrel has a 4/3/2 slot layout, with 4 launchers, 0 turrets. 125cpu/30 grid. 250shield/200armor. Bonuses to 5% kinetic missile damage & RoF.

The Hawk, currently, has a 4/4/2, with 3 turret, 2 launcher. 180cpu/40grid. 665shield/275armor. Bonuses for frig skill of 5% missile RoF (the deceptively static kin/therm resists), and AF skill bonus of 10% hybrid range and 5% shield boost.

...whoopeedo, less overall HP than the Harpy, 1 less hi slot than the Harpy, same med slots. That wonderful 5% shield boost bonus, even at L5, is only 25% total. When you're talking about having a small shield booster II (+30 shield), that's all of 7.5 meager points. A final boost of only +37.5 hitpoints. That's nothing at all worth training the AF skill 1.5 months to L5 to attain. CCP needs to put on a REAL bonus instead of that "afterthought" 5% shield boost bonus. When your overall shield is going to be ~750 with good shield compensation skill, 37.5 is a drop in the bucket, and statistically no different from 30.

IF... the hawk were to be a properly kestrel derived T2 AF, however, we could expect something like this:
5/4/2 layout, 5 launcher, 0 turret. 145cpu/43grid. 521shield/289 armor. Caldari Frig skill bonus of to 5% kinetic missile damage (and the kin/therm resists). AF skill bonus of 10% RoF, 10% velocity. It'd be a lot like a mini-Caracal, like the Harpy is a mini-Moa. Makes sense!

10% RoF bonus you say? That's not normal, it should be 5%, right? WRONG. Much like the pathetic current 5% bonus for the Hawk shield boost, grab your calculator and punch in 25% (L5 AF skill) of 10-12 seconds, for a std missile launcher with good skills. What's that you come up with? Right... only 2.5, meaning ~8sec RoF now. Not much. Now 10% would give -5 sec bonus, so you'd end up with about a 5sec RoF on std missiles at L5 assault frig skill. Now that might actually begin to be worth it ;)

Alternative slot layouts for the Hawk include 4/5/2 instead, with ~10 more CPU added on, to lower offense but enable more EW/shield. Another would be 5/4/2 slot layout, same as Harpy, but with 3 turret & 3 launcher slots allowing for proper flexibility in choice of missiles vs. rails per the current Hawk description.

Keep in mind, of course, that with std launchers taking 8 grid each, 8*5 = 40, so that's pretty much completely crammed full & allowing for no other mods, on my proposed "Kestrel T2" setup. With the "5/4/2 - 3/3" Hawk/Merlin setup, also, the grid is still too low on that ship to really equip a full hi-slot load for most players, and thus "balanced" against too much offensive power. Even if the Hawk stays 4/4/2, it needs 3x launcher, 3x turret slots.

Magnum VII
Caldari
Doomheim
Posted - 2005.09.01 07:56:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Magnum VII on 01/09/2005 08:01:14

I love the Hawk because it can have 2 Launchers and 2 turrets and great shields for its size.

This layout is my style and I love it.

Missle's and Gun's together, that's Caldari to me, and I am Caldari.

Plus all my girlfriends love riding in it. When I open the door to let them in and they see the blue dome light go on, they'er like butter!!!

It's got a great mp3 player and XM Radio in it too... Sporty!!!Cool

Add a Kessi AF if you wan't, just leave my Hawk alone.

Tobiaz
Spacerats
Posted - 2005.09.01 08:57:00 - [22]
 

A 5th midslot would be a cool way to balance it though.

Chi Prime
Black Omega Security
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2005.09.03 12:19:00 - [23]
 

I'd very much welcome a meager extra launcher point (or two) and changing the turret bonus.

(An extra med slot would be sweet, but too much to hope for I think.)

Paul Tibbets
Secret Intelligence Service
Posted - 2005.09.04 17:08:00 - [24]
 

Just look at the Caldari HAC's
Eagle = railgun specialist
Cerberus = Missile specialist

I decided on the hawk becaus of the extra missile slot but i still think it whould be more missile oriented.


Algorithm
Posted - 2005.09.09 12:34:00 - [25]
 

bump

Crellion
Parental Control
Merciless.
Posted - 2005.09.12 13:16:00 - [26]
 

Fix Hawk and Caldari HACs now (!!!)orI ll leave the game and donate all my stuff to CAREBEARS Evil or Very Mad

[This HAS to work ugh]

Jacob Majestic
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2005.09.12 14:54:00 - [27]
 

I vote in favor of keeping the bonuses how they are and changing the ship to a 4/5/2 slot layout and a 3/3 turret/launcher layout. Steal that mid slot from the extra high slot of the Harpy, it's not like anyone uses it anyway ugh

Mangus Thermopyle
Divine Retribution
Daisho Syndicate
Posted - 2005.09.13 12:15:00 - [28]
 

Going from ceptor to AF usually means one more slot of the appropriate type. But not so for caldari, where you:
1. Dont have a real turret ceptor
2. Dont have a real missile AF

Going from for example taranis to enyo works like a dream (or from enyo to taranis). Why should caldari ceptors and AFs dont work that way?

Besides, Hawk with 4 launchers and 1 empty high slot would still have the lowest DPS of all AFs.

Suze'Rain
Caldari
Posted - 2005.09.13 17:57:00 - [29]
 

a missile boat AF, to mirror the Ceberus for HACs would be nice.
hell, as a lover of kessies, you'd hear my manical laughter around the globe Twisted Evil

perhaps CCP should have a backstory of the hawk being withdrawn from service and a replacement on the kestrel hull launched.
(personally, I'd love to see that sort of evolution - and people keeping hold of their old out-of-service ships.)

not sure it'd be easy to implement, however...

Yazoul Samaiel
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2005.09.16 02:54:00 - [30]
 

I agree with the original poster hawk realy needs soem loving and if it is turned to a T2 kessi that would be UBER


PS: Excelent analysis speedo man


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