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Elemental Shadow
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2003.07.22 23:02:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Elemental Shadow on 22/07/2003 23:24:38
Ever since I started playing Eve, I've been wondering how the ships can traval as fast as they do. While warping, my ship travels at 2.0 au/s, which is approximately 1000 times the speed of light (I did the math). Since faster-than-light travel is not possible with today's technology and causes all kinds of paradoxes, I wanted to know how the ships in Eve work. Then I found this article about warp drives that explains a lot of the details:

[url=http://www.npl.washington.edu/AV/altvw81.html]The Alcubierre Warp Drive[/url]

Klydor
Minmatar
Posted - 2003.07.23 00:49:00 - [2]
 

In the main menu you'll find POTW, Stories and Articles. In the articles section is a nice explination about stargates, warp drives, jump drives etc :) well worth a read.

Jack Hayden
Gallente
Doomheim
Posted - 2003.07.26 08:41:00 - [3]
 

An intersting paradox with faster than light travel is weather information can travel faster than light or not.

If information cannot travel faster than light, but you are traveling faster than light, you can look in a mirror and not see your own reflection because that information is basically "behind you" trying to catch up.

Just one of many intersting issues.

If I am not mistaken, a few peeps managed to make a laser travel faster than liget by running 3 highenergy lasers paralles and then letting the one in the middle use energy from the two alongside it thusly permitting to travel faster than ligt.

I can't seem to find that article anymore..

Skillz
Amarr
Posted - 2003.07.29 15:18:00 - [4]
 


Einstein diden't say energy can't travel faster than light. Mass can't however since the relative mass grows towards infinity as the velocity approaches light speed.

Elemental Shadow
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2003.07.30 02:32:00 - [5]
 

The whole idea behind a warp drive is that you don't travel faster than the speed of light, you "warp" the space around you such that where you are and where you want to be are not very far apart, and you can move from one to the other in a short period of time at regular speeds. Changing the shape of space requires tremendous (planet-sized) amounts of energy, which is why in the year 2003 we haven't figured out how to do it.

The Jez
Posted - 2003.07.31 14:18:00 - [6]
 

Besides that scientists experiementing with vaccuums and light have been theroising that light can be made to move at 3 times the speed of light... which is always interesting.

EaglesFire
Gallente
ARK-CORP
SATRAPY
Posted - 2003.08.06 04:09:00 - [7]
 

Quote:

If I am not mistaken, a few peeps managed to make a laser travel faster than liget by running 3 highenergy lasers paralles and then letting the one in the middle use energy from the two alongside it thusly permitting to travel faster than ligt.

I can't seem to find that article anymore..


Using lasers, and they used high energy mircowaves to energize the laser light, which would could give the laser more energy, therby making it go faster than light. (not proven yet)Wink

Grandorr
Caldari
Posted - 2003.08.06 14:08:00 - [8]
 

Shocked I think my brain just exploded. Lets not think about how its done, lets just play with the aftereffects of it getting done. Razz

Kelewan
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2003.08.07 23:32:00 - [9]
 

IF you want some scifi to blow your mind read this http://www.sg1archive.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=15&t=1070&s=602f6a4a37954a72fa361986cd832c43

Rancid Mare
Caldari
Posted - 2003.08.08 11:55:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Rancid Mare on 08/08/2003 11:57:13
"Einstein diden't say energy can't travel faster than light"

the brainy man said Nothing can travel faster than the speed of light.
that whould be nothing as is NOTHING....

energy isnt actualy anything is it ?
you cant transport energy....
it would be what ever is holding the energy that is traveling... IE. particles or waves.


there was however one proven theory for instant data transfer over infinat distances.
its to do with Quarks....which are the tiny little wheeny things. it was shown that quarks can come in pairs. and they also have a position (up or down) it was shown that if you turn one quark in the pair then the other will also turn at the same time. this is reguardless of the distance between the quarks.

hence in theory you could use a pair of quarks on different sides of the universe to communicate instantly... thus surpassing the speed of light.

however as the brainy bloke said Nothing can travel faster than light.

the current understanding is that information is not passed from one quark to the other instantly over vast distances, but instead it is considered that these quarks do not actualy adhear to time as we do. and that they are effected as much by future events as they are by past events (summit to do with the laws of causailty)

hence when you flip one quark...it still takes loads of time for the effect to reach the other quark...but becasue the other quark is effect by future events it appears to flip at the same time as the other quark.
in effect the 2nd quark is reacting at the same time as the first even thouhg it will not actualy recive the information from the first for many light years to come.

now if that dosnt make your head hurt........
you ante got a brian...

i been reading this stuff for many years now.
even now i still dont understand any of it.
but dosnt stop me reading does it.

KrashOmnis
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2003.08.08 18:37:00 - [11]
 

Well actually you can transport energy, well, not directly, but think of it in terms of heat. Heat is nothing but kinetic energy on a molecular scale correct? So If you caused an object to transfer (not sure if thats the correct word here) heat to another object, you in turn transported energy. But I guess since something like a calorimiter (sp?) is macro sized maybe its not so much energy as it is something of a product of energy and something else. Of course this is limited to my understanding of physics. I do know that theres a theory about wavicles, (wave + molecule) so in effect maybe heat isnt JUST energy. Which if thats the case, negates my theory. But I do think its a start. Very Happy

Rancid Mare
Caldari
Posted - 2003.08.09 12:05:00 - [12]
 

heat is dodget example...

transfer of heat is more linked to chaose theory. where as if you take a hot summit and a cold summit (this is called ordered) and then put them together they will become un-ordered in that the hot and cold will mix until there is uniform heat acorss both of them.

any other method of transfering heat will have to be forced in which case you have to apply some sort of force...and you cant apply any force faster than the speed of light.

as for you comment " I do know that theres a theory about wavicles, (wave + molecule)"

your making my head hurt......
this is a big issue and has been for a long time, as in light for example can behave as both a paritcle and a wave and only aussume one or the other when you actualy try to mesure them. or summit like that. most confusing.

for you that prefer your mp3's to text books have a listen here.
http://www.mchawking.com

much funny.

Marcus Grisbius
Gallente
Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe
Posted - 2003.08.18 19:01:00 - [13]
 

A really simplistic model can be helpful in understanding warping. And I know that this won't by any stretch cover all the theories of space-time continuum but it's the basic idea.

Take a piece of paper and fold it in half. On the outside of the paper, mark a spot on each side of the paper. One spot could be your current location and the other your destination. If you spread out the paper the dots are several inches away from each other. However if you made a hole through each of the marks when the page is folded they would be next to each other. Sort of like digging a tunnel to China is shorter than traveling around the outside of Earth. :) This is why you can warp through planets and stars, although, i'm still not sure how I can fly through the walls of stations. Laughing

SpawnOfEvil
Gallente
Doomheim
Posted - 2003.08.24 14:02:00 - [14]
 

Quote:
This is why you can warp through planets and stars, although, i'm still not sure how I can fly through the walls of stations. Laughing


prob warp interferanceSmile

ChaoticGhost
Minmatar
Firestorm Tactical Industries
Posted - 2003.08.24 16:24:00 - [15]
 

Quote:

hence when you flip one quark...it still takes loads of time for the effect to reach the other quark...but becasue the other quark is effect by future events it appears to flip at the same time as the other quark.
in effect the 2nd quark is reacting at the same time as the first even thouhg it will not actualy recive the information from the first for many light years to come.



Light Years are distance not time, though i suspect it was just a typo, as your knowlage on quantum physics (at least i THINK thats quantum physics) is impressive.

RuHa
Minmatar
RuHa Corp
Posted - 2003.08.25 11:07:00 - [16]
 

I think he ment Light Years alright...
It's distance but its also time. If you refer something 1000 LY away you are also refering to something that happened 1000 years ago from your point of view...

So...if you "remove" the time factor the distance becomes "nothing".

Horgeig
Posted - 2003.08.25 18:32:00 - [17]
 

1. A Warp drive shortens the way between two points in space. It's possible with an ring of negative Energy around the ship. The Problem is that til today noone knows how to produce negative energy and that it uses a lot of energy and no one wants to put off the sun for a single warp. Maybe one day its posible to create neagtive energy by a mechanism using virtual particles.

2. Waves (and Light is one) can travel faster than Light. But the Information coded in the Wave can't. So its possible to tunnel a Signal on a distance of about 20cm with a speed of 4 times the lightspeed. It's allso possible to teleport a particle. However both Methods (which are proved) cant't transmit Information faster then Light cause the Wave is phased so the Signal, it codes, is delayed and the teleport needs a reference signal which transmit the operation which has to be performed to complete the Teleport.

Horgeig
Posted - 2003.08.25 20:21:00 - [18]
 

3. An addition to the linked Quants for Hyperspeed Transmissions. U can cross to Objects (Quants are only an example, it works with nearly everything, even with groups of atoms). U have two Particle in Hyperposition, which means that it has two states at the same time. The only thing u know ist that these two Particels have a different state (crossed). They keep this state if they are seperatet from each other (maybe lightyears away). If u look at it one Particle takes a random state, while the other Particle takes the other (remember they are lighyears away). The Problem is that if u set a state the Hyperposition is destroyed, so that it can't be used for a Hypercom, cause u have to transmit your state via conventional line. But u can use it to teleport the states of a Photon (see Posting before) with two pairs of crossed Photons (Jepp the state of the original Photon is destroyed). Allso u can use it for a ultimate Encryption, cause every Sniffer will destroy the Code.

QBall
Caldari
Xtreme Intruders
Posted - 2003.08.26 22:06:00 - [19]
 

Here's food for though, a blackhole aka Gravity well warp's space and time around it, Connect 2 points of a blackhole and you just made a wormhole.

Now take that concept apply it to a warp drive you warp space to two connection point in space and you get instantainous travel not this 2AU a second stuff, like Im on the left side now im on the right side.

Well thats warp theory.

Now on another note, look at antimatter. Yes antimatter is real, and if you combine undeluted anti matter with antimatter technically you will end up with nothing. But since perfect antimatter is impossible to produce, if you combine antimatter with matter you get one hell of an explotion.

Right now if you took a gram of Antimatter and made it to cause a chain reaction you could blow up the entire planet and then some.

BTW, it's been so long that I studied this crap I may be mistaken, it's been known to happen more than once.

Oh and don't forget that E=MC^2 takes light speed as being a constant. Some current study's are showing that Light Speed may NOT be constant, and if that's true then that forumla is really not applicable in all case's anymore.

Also another note, blackholes exert enough force to keep light from escaping, so wouldn't that mean that light would indeed have some kind of mass.

A theory is only a theory until it's proven wrong, just look at the only theory of earth = CENTER of the universe. That used to be leading edge science only a thousand or so years ago, now we transfer information at the speed of light with fiber optics.

So who know's what mankind will accomplish in the next 1000 years assumeing we don't blow ourselves up that is.

Angry Sheep
Amarr
Aur0ra
Posted - 2003.08.27 00:11:00 - [20]
 

If your space ship is travelling faster than light, and you turn the headlights on!!

will you see any thing

:)

QBall
Caldari
Xtreme Intruders
Posted - 2003.08.27 06:34:00 - [21]
 

yes you will see it do to your relative position, if you use the spaceship as a point of reference.

That is anothe reason why speed of light create a paradox.

Entroph
Caldari
Daikatana
Posted - 2003.08.27 08:49:00 - [22]
 

I kinda faded out for the last few posts there... But anyways... There are four dimensions. X, Y, Z and Time. The energy cap on the universe is the speed of light, can't remember the exact figures now. X, Y and Z are spacial dimensions. Ie if your travelling in a straight line along one axis, your using a certain amount of energy in that direction. If your travelling diagonally between axes, then you are using energy to propel you in two axes. The time dimension is always taking from the energy cap, so upon reaching the speed of light along, say, the X-axis of space, Time is quite literally standing still. Which causes all kinds of paradoxes. Bottom line is there is no way to breach the boundary that is the speed of light. The concept behind warp drive, as a few of the guys said, is not that an object moves faster than the speed of light, but that the fabric of space is folded, using a force not unlike gravity, to make a destination closer to a starting point. Its all very complex stuff. And I don't think that quarks get involved at all really... Btw this "theory" has been pretty much proven by accelerating particles to close to the speed of light, then watching their decay rate(Or whatever they do that shows time passes) and comparing it to particles that are stationary. Tra la la...

Entroph
Caldari
Daikatana
Posted - 2003.08.27 08:52:00 - [23]
 

Ooo I just thought of a really nice light speed paradox... A spaceship travelling at the speed of light is holding a family of people. Two kids find a ball in the corridor, and one throws it to the other person. At the ships current speed, the ball is already travelling at the speed of light, so the question is whether or not the ball will move forward, for the second child to catch, or stand still in space and make funny noises...?

Jnex26
Posted - 2003.08.27 10:58:00 - [24]
 

There has been many theorys about FTL travel one theroy is that you create two gravitational sigulariys front and rear of the vehicle.
the front a negative gravitational force and the rear a positive. IN THEORY. this would create a force loop. the faster the vehicle travels the faster the singularity travels and the more acceleration is applyed. HOWEVER this just does not confirm to current laws of thermodynamics and you would eventually reach a maximum speed. based on velocity.

another perceived method is creating a warp Bubble. this is a feild created around the ship that traps EVERY thing inside it. and sepearting the ship from Open space. then you move the bubble (That's made of energy) though space at light speed.

Antoher method is Phasing this involes createing another bubble around the ship but to push matter & Energy around the bubble (See how Song magnetic feilds can effect light) and doing that with matter that would give the object a theortical mass of 0 in real space the hardest point is propelling the vehicle. and not pulling the ship to peices creating the feild.

Anthoer method of space travel is FOLDING space as described earlier. this involves using singularitys to PUNCH a hole though space to your desired location however the energy required to do this would be emense.

Doriam Gaulith
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2003.08.29 10:36:00 - [25]
 

Quote:
Edited by: Rancid Mare on 08/08/2003 11:57:13
"Einstein diden't say energy can't travel faster than light"

the brainy man said Nothing can travel faster than the speed of light.
that whould be nothing as is NOTHING....



Actually, Einstein said that nothing could _accelerate_ to the speed of light. The warp theory concludes that the ship itself never accelerates to the speed of light. But actually compresses the space itself in front of the ship, expanding it behind, thus not accelerating relativitaly to the surrounding space. Confusing?

NASA are investigating the possibilities of faster-than-light travel.

For interesting reading of warp theory and conclusions, check out:
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/PAO/warp.htm

Horgeig
Posted - 2003.08.29 23:41:00 - [26]
 

Quote:
Ooo I just thought of a really nice light speed paradox... A spaceship travelling at the speed of light is holding a family of people. Two kids find a ball in the corridor, and one throws it to the other person. At the ships current speed, the ball is already travelling at the speed of light, so the question is whether or not the ball will move forward, for the second child to catch, or stand still in space and make funny noises...?


The trick is that u can't travel with light. So u can travel allways a little bit faster. If we assume that u fly with 99.9999% lightspeed the time stands nearly still for the Family. For a viewer outside the ship the ball needs (nearly) endles time to travel from Kid 1 to Kid 2. For a viewer inside the ship the Ball need only a few seconds.

Horgeig
Posted - 2003.08.29 23:50:00 - [27]
 

Quote:
Here's food for though, a blackhole aka Gravity well warp's space and time around it, Connect 2 points of a blackhole and you just made a wormhole.

Now take that concept apply it to a warp drive you warp space to two connection point in space and you get instantainous travel not this 2AU a second stuff, like Im on the left side now im on the right side.


Yepp ure Right, but this is how a Jumpdrive (or Jumpgate) operates, not a Warpdrive.Wink

Deadzone
Caldari
Phoenix Propulsion Labs
Dara Cothrom
Posted - 2003.08.31 10:46:00 - [28]
 

I think some people are criss-crossing warp travel and space folding.

In short, warp travel is creating a vacumn bubble around an object and moving that 'bubble' through space at faster-than-light speeds. In relation to Einsteins theory, the object with mass cannont move faster than light. The bubble has no mass, but the ship does. In theory, the ship inside the 'bubble' would travel slower than lihgt, but the 'bubble' would travel faster than light.

With space-folding, this is where you have two points anywhere in given space, and you the take space and actually fold it parallel to each point, and then move from point A to point B. and then space would then revert back to its normal state. This is the 'fold a piece of paper in half with 2 points marked on it' example someone was using.


Lethargy
Posted - 2003.09.02 17:48:00 - [29]
 



I thinkyou'll find the brainy man was talking about the speed of light in a vacuum, which is constant. The speed of light through any other medium is not constant, light can be affected by other things (gravity is a great one) that doesnt mean it doesn't travel any faster or slower, it's moving in a different direction.

QBall
Caldari
Xtreme Intruders
Posted - 2003.09.03 22:21:00 - [30]
 

Quote:
Ooo I just thought of a really nice light speed paradox... A spaceship travelling at the speed of light is holding a family of people. Two kids find a ball in the corridor, and one throws it to the other person. At the ships current speed, the ball is already travelling at the speed of light, so the question is whether or not the ball will move forward, for the second child to catch, or stand still in space and make funny noises...?


All Depends where your viewing it from. If the theory of relativity holds true, Everything inside the ship would appear to be normal. But if you are viewing it from somewhere say on earth with a SUPER TELESCOPE you would probably see all kinds of impossible stuff.

But hey I'm no physicist just read a couple books but other guys that think they are smarter than I, and probably rightly so.


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