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Benni
Posted - 2005.08.06 18:58:00 - [1]
 

I have been playing Eve for sometime and have been enjoying it. However I am puzzled over recent events particularly the Missile rule changes. I have tried to ascertain why these changes were made and the only real explanation was that some people were unhappy that the Raven had become the level 4 mission ship of choice for solo players. I would point out that it was also considered a very poor choice for PVP so it had strengths and weaknesses.
But the point I wanted to make was that you changed things. This is a GAME and as such we are the players and in a way we own it. The people flying Ravens on level 4 missions did so because that is what they wanted to do in the GAME. I do not chose to PVP, I have no objection to a war but not just PVP.
When you start to change things so that players cannot do what they enjoy doing then you are trying to stop people enjoying the game. When you do that you will drive them away - loose word of mouth recommendations - loose business - this leads to knee jerk reactions to keep customers - this results in updates that are not fully tested in order to placate the customers - leading to the end of EVE. If you are not careful...................

Take care you have a good product - not as good as it was, but remember it is our game as much as yours, and we pay to play.

If you had improved the other weapons rather than nerfing the missiles - no problem but in my mind you chose the easy and bad option.

I look forward to playing but you have started me thinking about other games and options.Sad

RedClaws
Amarr
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2005.08.06 19:20:00 - [2]
 

well no this won't be the end of eve. Ppl still love it just like they will do even after ccp messes something up.

I did lvl4's in my apoc but i realised i can't do them all solo anymore (just like ccp said in the beginning) and i chose to go to 0.0 and ravens are still by far the king of 0.0 hunting and its equally fun as doing missions.

But please be sensible : the missle nerf was necesarry and its all balanced out more like it should. Many of my mates fly ravens and most ofthem are still pleased with their ship and some even agree that they raven was to powerfull with the kill-all-torp.

I'm just saying that imo eve has become a better world since the missle nerf to the raven (i don't know enough to say that about the smaller ships like inties/AF) , I do find it sad i can't do lvl 4's alone anymore but i'll just switch careers or find a friend to do them together.

Joshua Foiritain
Gallente
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2005.08.06 21:02:00 - [3]
 

I only read the first line of your post and it looks like just another missile whine so No;
This is not the end of eve. Please donate all your isk and assets to some random newbie and unsubscribe, just because you lack the skill to cope with a minor game change doesnt mean the world will be ending for the rest of us.

Missile change (OLMGOHNOESIRNOSKILLSSOITBEANERF) made eve better.

Wow sounds like your kinda game btw.

Ps: You are the 1643th person to whine about how the change prevents you from grinding missions while being AFK.

theRaptor
Caldari
Tactical Operations
Posted - 2005.08.06 21:57:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Benni
The people flying Ravens on level 4 missions did so because that is what they wanted to do in the GAME.


No they did it because you could make *BIG ISK* doing level 4's, and the Raven made them a cake walk. I will tell you a little secret. Most level 4 Raven runners were 0.0 combat pilots. Some people wanted level 4's nerfed just so they could get more combat pilots back out to 0.0.

Every single person I knew was doing level 4's at that time, and most of them in Ravens. They couldn't be balanced because Ravens could kill any frig in a salvo, while the other BS struggled.

If people could make that amount of money knitting they would do it.

RedClaws
Amarr
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2005.08.06 22:33:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Joshua Foiritain
I only read the first line of your post and it looks like just another missile whine so No;


Please don't post if you're to lazy or arrogant to read somebody's post.

Benni
Posted - 2005.08.07 06:36:00 - [6]
 

My point was not so much the fact of the missile nerf rather that it was an attempt to prevent players doing what they wanted. That this is a game and that if you try and prevent players doing what they want they will go elsewhere. It will be a lonely galaxy with only two people in it and the rest NPC's.
As an aside if the missile nerf ha to be done I feel players should have been fully informed of the effects and formula involved after all I had been flying a Raven for 6 months using missiles and all of a sudden I do not even know how many missiles it will take to negate a frigate or cruiser, information I had made a point of knowing before. If the game has to be changed for play balance and it now takes 15.234876492 times longer to mine with a Converter then those who have been using them for months should at least be made aware of the precise change after all they should be considered expert miners and allowed to benefit from the knowledge.

Zyrla Bladestorm
Minmatar
Foundation
R0ADKILL
Posted - 2005.08.07 08:13:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Benni
My point was not so much the fact of the missile nerf rather that it was an attempt to prevent players doing what they wanted. That this is a game and that if you try and prevent players doing what they want they will go elsewhere. It will be a lonely galaxy with only two people in it and the rest NPC's.
As an aside if the missile nerf ha to be done I feel players should have been fully informed of the effects and formula involved after all I had been flying a Raven for 6 months using missiles and all of a sudden I do not even know how many missiles it will take to negate a frigate or cruiser, information I had made a point of knowing before. If the game has to be changed for play balance and it now takes 15.234876492 times longer to mine with a Converter then those who have been using them for months should at least be made aware of the precise change after all they should be considered expert miners and allowed to benefit from the knowledge.


The changes were listed in a sticky thread in the ships and modules forum and on the test server for testing for going on two months before they were implemented.

Velios
M. Corp
M. PIRE
Posted - 2005.08.08 16:34:00 - [8]
 

Just get a different setup, adapt and move on. Ravens were TOO powerful against NPC's in their old form (even I could kill the toughest 0.0 rats with leisurely torp spam ease) This game is bigger than Mission runners, this game is about balance and multiplayer activity. For every happy go lucky raven pilot spamming the missions there was an equally unhappy CEO or director who was wondering why his once functional corp had all of a sudden started playing a 1 player agent running game in their ravens.

In my experience as a CEO, also I saw many members get so hooked on these agent missions that they quickly marginalised themselves as agent runners and once the appeal had gone after they had their uber faction BS's... they quickly left the game.

So... disregard the missile nerf, the raven in its old form was unbalanced and was tilting the style of play towards areas that would be more suitable in a single player game.

SpeedoMan
Caldari
Posted - 2005.08.08 16:55:00 - [9]
 

Yes, the missile nerf was bad. Yes it affected far too much aside from just the Raven. No, the Raven was not all that imbalanced and "uber" for L4. Any other good tier2 BS could do just the same job of it.

The problem was not missiles; the problem was not the Raven. The problem was the ease of L4 missions versus their payout.

Part of all of this is necessary to cater to the casual, lone player, which is a significant part of EVE. Because CCP hasn't put in L5 agents as "group missions" accordingly, they should have increased difficulty of L4 and lowered payouts a bit. This would have gone much farther towards unclogging agents and L4 mission running, while also keeping more players happier; than a game wide missile nerf and caldari ship nerf. (Hurt minnies a bit as well, but not nearly as much).

Bobby Wilson
Gallente
Posted - 2005.08.08 20:16:00 - [10]
 

The only problem with the nerf was that it was too long coming. Raven was king of the level fours for months, to the point were ppl started thinking they'd never need to train anything else.

I must admit, I actually trained up from zero caldari ship skills and low missile skills soley to see what all the fuss was about, and needless to say I found out quick that Raven was overpowered. So I sold my megathron, put my Dominix into storage and did missions in my Raven (or Caracal for lvl 2 and 3s). Now my Raven is in storage, I've built another Megathron, and I'm at the point of proposing marriage to my Dominix.

The morale of the story isn't to let players use whatever they find to be uber (balance is needed) but rather to nerf stuff QUICK when it's overpowered, rather than waiting until hundreds of ppl put hundreds of thousands of skillpoints into the uber ship of the game. They will of course be annoyed if they waste so much training time on a ship that then is nerfed into the stone age.

When I think about this nerf, I remember the similar nerf with the Tempest. That dirty beast was the king for awhile due to a number of issues, most signficantly that wrecking hit calculations didn't used to take shot quality into account, so every shot has a %age chance to wreck (which with 1400 arty is bad news). So the 1400 would come up with these insane shots, like a interceptor MWDing at 1KM orbit of the Tempest being missed, missed, missed, WRECKED INTO A POD.

That one too was too long being nerfed. And a lot of POed ppl were muttering as they'd just spent a month or more training up the uber ship of the day. I actually was caught a few weeks away from being able to fly one when the nerf came through, but I knew ppl who'd got Minmatar BS5, etc and felt totally alienated.

I suspect similar screaming would take place if ppl nerfed the speed of the Vagabond in September or so :P

BW

Astarte Nosferatu
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2005.08.14 09:47:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: theRaptor
Originally by: Benni
The people flying Ravens on level 4 missions did so because that is what they wanted to do in the GAME.


No they did it because you could make *BIG ISK* doing level 4's, and the Raven made them a cake walk. I will tell you a little secret. Most level 4 Raven runners were 0.0 combat pilots. Some people wanted level 4's nerfed just so they could get more combat pilots back out to 0.0.

Every single person I knew was doing level 4's at that time, and most of them in Ravens. They couldn't be balanced because Ravens could kill any frig in a salvo, while the other BS struggled.

If people could make that amount of money knitting they would do it.


I hate missions.

lasergazer
Posted - 2005.08.21 01:35:00 - [12]
 

yah for all the folks sayin eve aint dead....ive played the game for 2 years and was in a corp with over 100 people....95% of them have left eve now...not just because of last patch but because of continued nerfs on ships and no way in the world for new players ever to have a hopee against the other guys

anyway imo ccp keep goin the way u are and eve surely will die
u are loosing players daily as far as i can see but prove me wrong if u will and if im wrong fair enough but i see a big downfall comin real soon for eveWink

Kaylana Syi
Minmatar
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2005.08.21 02:16:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Benni
My point was not so much the fact of the missile nerf rather that it was an attempt to prevent players doing what they wanted. That this is a game and that if you try and prevent players doing what they want they will go elsewhere. It will be a lonely galaxy with only two people in it and the rest NPC's.
As an aside if the missile nerf ha to be done I feel players should have been fully informed of the effects and formula involved after all I had been flying a Raven for 6 months using missiles and all of a sudden I do not even know how many missiles it will take to negate a frigate or cruiser, information I had made a point of knowing before. If the game has to be changed for play balance and it now takes 15.234876492 times longer to mine with a Converter then those who have been using them for months should at least be made aware of the precise change after all they should be considered expert miners and allowed to benefit from the knowledge.


You can't cater to 1 group in a MMOG... hence the first M .. Massively... meaning Many...

I have been absolutely furious at some changes... and discontent... and even quit once. But I was patient and found every other MMO to share the same headaches and EVE is still my game 2 years strong.

Missiles imho are better now. They are fun, require training, and aren't an instant win button. End of EVE? Nope I don't think so.

Kaylana Syi
Minmatar
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2005.08.21 02:19:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: lasergazer
yah for all the folks sayin eve aint dead....ive played the game for 2 years and was in a corp with over 100 people....95% of them have left eve now...not just because of last patch but because of continued nerfs on ships and no way in the world for new players ever to have a hopee against the other guys

anyway imo ccp keep goin the way u are and eve surely will die
u are loosing players daily as far as i can see but prove me wrong if u will and if im wrong fair enough but i see a big downfall comin real soon for eveWink


???

The game is growing... check the numbers. And newbs have it easier than vets in many respects. We have tons and tons of skills that for atleast a year had little focus or specialization. Newbs can come in and specialize and within a few months be making big bux. How is it people don't see this? Blind with fury... thats why. So you lost friends... ever MMO does... boo hoo.

dantes inferno
Caldari
Posted - 2005.08.21 12:09:00 - [15]
 

yes, if ccp do continue to make massive changes without full testing them, and spoliing the way the game is played for to many people. it could meant the end of eve, to many things are nerfed in this game, and you continuosly see cries for more and more to be nerfed. the missile change was needed, but apart from that you have a vald point

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.08.21 16:14:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: dantes inferno
yes, if ccp do continue to make massive changes without full testing them, and spoliing the way the game is played for to many people. it could meant the end of eve, to many things are nerfed in this game, and you continuosly see cries for more and more to be nerfed. the missile change was needed, but apart from that you have a vald point

They tested the missile changes for MONTHS on SiSi. You just chose not to pay attention.

EVE is growing, and none of the new players think missiles are gimped. They think the system makes perfect sense--and it does.

Every missile whiner that leaves EVE is a victory for those of us who wish to actually play the game.

Kaylana Syi
Minmatar
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2005.08.21 20:30:00 - [17]
 

2005.08.21 16:14:00 combat Dark Shikari's Post II perfectly strikes Dantes Inferno's Post, wreacking for 2200 damage
Dark Shikari's Post II perfectly strikes Dantes Inferno's Post, wreacking for 2200 damage

dantes inferno
Caldari
Posted - 2005.08.21 21:35:00 - [18]
 

They tested the missile changes for MONTHS on SiSi. You just chose not to pay attention.

EVE is growing, and none of the new players think missiles are gimped. They think the system makes perfect sense--and it does.

Every missile whiner that leaves EVE is a victory for those of us who wish to actually play the game.

wasnt refering to missile changess i meant in general. there are so many nerfs and major changes in so short time im worried that it will eventualy damage the game.the missile nerf dosent affect me as i dont use them. and im unable to get on to sisi, so i could not have a look on any change ever.

"2005.08.21 16:14:00 combat Dark Shikari's Post II perfectly strikes Dantes Inferno's Post, wreacking for 2200 damage
Dark Shikari's Post II perfectly strikes Dantes Inferno's Post, wreacking for 2200 damage"

Grow up child if you have nothing sensible or constructive to say go back and play in your sand box

Juniper
Posted - 2005.08.21 22:05:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Benni

Take care you have a good product - not as good as it was, but remember it is our game as much as yours, and we pay to play.


Actually, just to play devils advocate, but it is CCP's game entirely. Not ours. They can do whatever the hell they want with it, and we can either like it, get used to it, or leave. CCP are better than most (any?) though at taking player ideas and thoughts on board when designing parts and fixing bugs... and you'll find that other MMORPGs are owned entirely by the publisher / designer rather than the player as well.

We might pay to play, but they can pull the plug or change anything any time they want and it's nothing to do with us.

See that load of legalese mumbo-jumbo that appeared the first time you ran it (or after every patch) that you have to click 'I agree' to? That's the EULA, and that's ultimately what its about.

NaZguL
Gallente
Posted - 2005.08.22 02:43:00 - [20]
 

people cried "end of eve" in the very begining, and they still do but,

EVE lives on

i stopped playing this game many months ago but,

EVE lives on

Caldess
Posted - 2005.08.22 02:59:00 - [21]
 

They removed an easily attainable I Win button for Caldari pilots/missile users, I don't see what everyone is crying about. My only ship skills are in Caldari, and it dealt me a blow I won't soon forget, but actually seeing my shields dip below 50% every once in awhile while NPC'ing in 0.0 is much more entertaining than having six I Win modules in my high slots. My only complaint was that the release of the missile skills forced me to make an empire run for new skillbooks, something dangerous and sometimes costly.

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.08.22 03:52:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: dantes inferno
im unable to get on to sisi, so i could not have a look on any change ever.


Why? Everyone else can get on just fine...

But if you think this is a lot of nerfs, you haven't been around long enough.... Laughing

dantes inferno
Caldari
Posted - 2005.08.22 05:16:00 - [23]
 

i have no idea..i opy eve to speerate folder ,it tells me to insatal katest patch...when i follow the link and try..it says ive already gpt that version (Yes it is the sisi folder im d/l it to..which is on a seperate drive)

The Wizz117
Reikoku
KenZoku
Posted - 2005.08.22 11:58:00 - [24]
 

i fully 100000000000000000% agree with bennie!

Zaldiri
Caldari
Automated Industries
Posted - 2005.08.22 13:06:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: lasergazer
yah for all the folks sayin eve aint dead....ive played the game for 2 years and was in a corp with over 100 people....95% of them have left eve now...not just because of last patch but because of continued nerfs on ships and no way in the world for new players ever to have a hopee against the other guys

anyway imo ccp keep goin the way u are and eve surely will die
u are loosing players daily as far as i can see but prove me wrong if u will and if im wrong fair enough but i see a big downfall comin real soon for eveWink


Yes lossing players daily... EVE isn't going through one of its biggest periods of growth is it.

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.08.22 14:28:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: dantes inferno
i have no idea..i opy eve to speerate folder ,it tells me to insatal katest patch...when i follow the link and try..it says ive already gpt that version (Yes it is the sisi folder im d/l it to..which is on a seperate drive)

You have to get the test patches Rolling Eyes

There's a nice set of instructions around if you look for it.

Kaylana Syi
Minmatar
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2005.08.22 21:04:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: dantes inferno

Grow up child if you have nothing sensible or constructive to say go back and play in your sand box



The old sandbox routine eh? Rolling Eyes

Taking offense of someone who offended you... in a game... is quite... big of you. I wish I could show my age better than you but you omgpwnt me.

Stepping Razor
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2005.08.23 00:16:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Zaldiri
Originally by: lasergazer
yah for all the folks sayin eve aint dead....ive played the game for 2 years and was in a corp with over 100 people....95% of them have left eve now...not just because of last patch but because of continued nerfs on ships and no way in the world for new players ever to have a hopee against the other guys

anyway imo ccp keep goin the way u are and eve surely will die
u are loosing players daily as far as i can see but prove me wrong if u will and if im wrong fair enough but i see a big downfall comin real soon for eveWink


Yes lossing players daily... EVE isn't going through one of its biggest periods of growth is it.


You're kidding right? Over 12K players online at one time most of the week-end is a problem? That's not far off our peak, and that's during a holiday period where a lot of players are away from home on vacation and not logging in.


Mr Popov
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2005.08.23 02:20:00 - [29]
 

The end of eve already came and went. Zombie won the game when they beat Concord in Yulai See Here



sonofollo
Caldari
Doomheim
Posted - 2005.08.23 12:32:00 - [30]
 

lets see almost 14k players online now - more signing up raven pilots still doign level 4 solo or in small groups - nope cant see any mass exodus going on here from eve u must have youre games mixed up its WOW that everyone is leaving mostly for eve.


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