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blankseplocked For those saying freighters WOULDN'T ruin the economy. You were wrong
 
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UglyBugly
Posted - 2005.08.05 09:53:00 - [121]
 

The roes are a special case too, btw. As the volume for sale is immense.

There are not many routes out there like that, if any. Most others popular routes would flatten before the floor of the freighter was even filled.

I predict that goods not previously handled due to volume issues will get freighter visits.

Al those newbie problems predicted are pure nonsense. There are TONS of routes out there for the low isk trader. It boggles my mind how anyone can claim that they will be destroyed.

Jorev
The Scope
Posted - 2005.08.05 09:53:00 - [122]
 

I am surprised that so many ppl are defending an alt account doing afk runs for 650m without taking any risks.

Yeah, way to go, what a smart player, learn and adapt, and all that....

Sad. This should make people scream. Where's the outrage ppl????

Deja Thoris
Invicta.
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2005.08.05 10:00:00 - [123]
 

Originally by: sonofollo
frieghers are large industrials - dreads are POS destoryers.




What is "industrial" about buying an item that has no utility whatsoever except to sell it somewhere else?

UglyBugly
Posted - 2005.08.05 10:02:00 - [124]
 

For your information, the origin of the debated good is in low sec.
So if he afk's it I am pretty sure someone will take interest in that freighter. Someone trodding the dark path of Eve life.
So lets kill that one.

sonofollo
Caldari
Doomheim
Posted - 2005.08.05 10:09:00 - [125]
 

my guess is he got lucky hauling back into empire - but even those with industrial ships relative to their time and ISK in eve can make good healthy % profits - alternatives like mining and NPCing and Missions are also good ISK generators.

My feeling is those that are hurting are those that dont do differenttrade routes across regions and low sec to high sec and vise versa - the routes are there but most are dare i say to lazy to look around.

UglyBugly
Posted - 2005.08.05 10:14:00 - [126]
 

Edited by: UglyBugly on 05/08/2005 10:16:01
I will not argue against that some routes could need a tweaking of volume vs. profit pr. unit vs. risk.

To say that it is all perfect would insane.

But I think one very specific example is taken by envious wannabe freighter owners to an extreme that is totally unnecessary. An extreme backed up by several claims that demonstrates a very limited knowledge about the possibilities on the market.

As one making lots of isk NPC trading I am even willing to debate the existance of the market at all.
But that is not the debate here.

sonofollo
Caldari
Doomheim
Posted - 2005.08.05 10:47:00 - [127]
 

well a haphazard market implemented by CCp early on is in place and there is rigid price movement - but static supply and demand.

Freighters will simply boost volumes and lower profits on .... some runs but not all.

There are literally hundreds of combinations if not thousands within the game and thats just high sec - low sec of course is even mroe complex but rewarding but to get the devs to look at the NPC goods market (sometimes missions with manufacturing and marketing agents) require u to find large amounts of trade goods - for that reason they should be left in game.

Butthe ones making the statements obvioulsy havent tried the low sec and even 200% return runs in places like syndicate - the forge etc. Probably wont freighters are pressuring them into diversifying their ingame activities or low sec and they arent liking that but its happening - high sec is less busy now.

Rawne Karrde
Bre-X Interstellar Shipyards
Ejectile Dysfunction
Posted - 2005.08.05 10:50:00 - [128]
 

This thread is hilarious, one person manages to beat a bunch of others on the long limbed roe route and the economy is falling apart. Seriously if you guys can't compete with him too bad. Either get your own freighter and 12 bil isk to buy up the orders like he did, or sit in maut and blow him up.

My gosh quit with all the freighter envy, just buy one already.

As for those who argue that insta's make their slow speed a non-issue, well if you owned one you'd realize that ccp did think of that. The nasty big brick of a ship takes 2-3 minutes just to align for warp, and then goes 0.6 au while in warp. It takes a good 5 minutes just to make one jump with an insta.

Anyways adapt, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen, or maybe just think a little. I did some research and found about 3 or 4 other routes with different goods that are totally worthless if you can't haul 800 m3 of them at once.

STEP AWAY FROM THE LONG LIMBED ROES!!! it appears that being around them too much causes one to forget that they aren't the only thing that makes up the eve economy.

sonofollo
Caldari
Doomheim
Posted - 2005.08.05 10:57:00 - [129]
 

perhas u could all sit along the route and suidicde frig or cruisers with smartbombs sit in a group of 20 track the frig players and when they come along let ripe all at once and blow them up. It helps empire miners because with each freighter blown up there is more and more mineral demand) use cheap ships as concord will own u sooneror later in high sec.

But yeah the speed thing is the offset - do different routes im still looking at emipre NPC goods data and most havent changed lol - get into low sec (ok dont go into low sec u can make to much ISK that way) leave those routes for me and my buddies even though we cant influence prices that much making 30-40M ISK over a hour period is to much good with an iteron 3 :)

Most newbies dont want that they want to feel safe and poor ISK generation

As for the roes well there are what 100-200 trade goods in the game lol

Perhaps u should all put youre energies into pressuring CCP to do something about the pathetic state of smuggling professions.

Vaaliant
Posted - 2005.08.05 11:03:00 - [130]
 

Um you guys do know quite often the buyer stations or so for quite a few trade goods now will only buy at the best prices a couple of weeks at a time (especially for roes) which means if a person or group of persons supplies the entire stations demand for the commodity then the buying price at that station will be lowered until supply is no longer satisfying demand, which in turn is basically a simple yet somewhat effective dynamically controlled system.

Nyxus
Amarr
Fat J
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2005.08.05 15:52:00 - [131]
 

Dear lord.....guys you have to think on a larger scale here. It's obvious that most of you don't have a clue about trading. THIS TOPIC IS NOT ABOUT ROES. Roes are merely used as the example brought up. This is about ALL trade routes.

Repeat after me; "Whatever a Badger can do, a freightor can do better." Hold it in your mind a minute. Think. Whatever a nub can haul, a freightor can haul more, and more volume, faster. This is a fact. Volume is largely irrelevent because through the use of remote buy orders the freightor owner can simply exhaust the volume buying it up day after day till he has a decent haul. And since the profit p/u can be SO MUCH LOWER BECAUSE OF VOLUME the nub will never get a chance at it.

Now let's talk about specifics.
Quote:
Why didnt this guys flatten the market before and ship it in indys, if he had the isk and it was so profitable?


Please reread how trading works. Before I could by 12 billion roes, but could not haul them in great enough volumes to seriously effect the price. With Freightors hauling 2.7 billion, PER TRIP, and someone able to perform that trip literally several hundred times a day during the optimal pricing window and they only need 2.7 billion liquid capital to start with......yea. They tanked the market in a matter of days.

Quote:
The roes are a special case too, btw. As the volume for sale is immense. There are not many routes out there like that, if any. Most others popular routes would flatten before the floor of the freighter was even filled.


Yet even one of the largest volume trading goods in the Eve Universe was decimated in a matter of days by less than 5 Freightors. Can you see the problem? And yes, most other routes would flatten faster, but with remote buying orders buying it up long after it ceased to be profitable for a nub in a badger II the price will never fall back down.

Where hundreds of people ran the route before, now 2 or 3 people are making 650+ million an hour in high sec with no risk. Am I jealous? Hell yes if I had gotten a hold of a freightor fast enough I would have done it too. However, the overall issue of noobs and young folks no longer having a trading profession is the problem. And we are talking strictly npc as very very few nubs would have enough game knowledge to effectively trade pc good - that's left to us professional haulers. Cool

Quote:
This thread is hilarious, one person manages to beat a bunch of others on the long limbed roe route and the economy is falling apart.


You are missing the point entirely. If it was just one route it would be no big deal, but this is just one example of the hundreds of routes being destroyed. This is a good example because no matter how much isk you had laying around, you couldn't destroy the market because of hte volume. If fewer than 5 freightors can destroy this previously healthy route, whats to stop them from doing it to all the routes? *hint.....it's already happened.

Very soon, like within the next 10 days, the only people who will be able to do trading as a profession are Freightor owners because the market will have tanked because of the volumes traded. This in turn means that only those who can trade in huge volumes on extremely thin margins will be able to trade. Ipso Facto; Freightor owners.

I don't want freightors nerfed necessarily. But CCP needs to address the issues on volumes originally set for Indy's on trading suddenly have to endure 5 times the haul volume. You cant just adjust trade volumes up, as freightors will just gobble that up as well. The only fix I see would be that all trade items get the "Can't be put in a planck compressor" flag and freightors work like a secure container, i.e. putting trade items in a freightor destroys the item. This would allow them to move player made compnents and trit, but not npc goods.

Otherwise you may as well call the Trader Profession dead.

Nyxus

Demarcus
Killjoy.
Posted - 2005.08.05 16:41:00 - [132]
 

Taking over a whole market on a single commodity is short bus easy in just a badger 2. Stop whining.

Bobby Wilson
Gallente
Posted - 2005.08.05 16:46:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: Avon
Freighters, as I understood it, were meant to help with the logistics of POS, capital ship construction, and the seeding of 0.0
None of those things require access to 0.5+, and restricting that access would have avoided these problems.


Um. You seem to be unaware of the 100K m3 starbase components, sold by NPCs in secure empire, that are needed to build a starbase platform. Freighters are 100% required for them, there is no other way to transport them, and no stations sell all the ones needed in one spot to build an outpost platform. Since a few hundred of these are needed for an outpost, there's lots of work for a freighter to build just one of these.

The issue here is not freighters, it is the NPC tradegoods market. And that is what needs the nerf.

Freighters have an important place in the player economy of all levels of security. Taking them out of high-sec is not the answer, especially for a problem that is obviously best resolved by modifications to the NPC market.

The nerf to tradegoods could just be quantity sold. If only smaller quantites were available, it wouldn't be worth a freighters time to do it.

BW

Talthrus
EdgeGamers
Situation: Normal
Posted - 2005.08.05 17:13:00 - [134]
 

Quote:
I don't want freightors nerfed necessarily. But CCP needs to address the issues on volumes originally set for Indy's on trading suddenly have to endure 5 times the haul volume. You cant just adjust trade volumes up, as freightors will just gobble that up as well. The only fix I see would be that all trade items get the "Can't be put in a planck compressor" flag and freightors work like a secure container, i.e. putting trade items in a freightor destroys the item. This would allow them to move player made compnents and trit, but not npc goods.


I completely agree. I believe the root problem being freighters is the fact that they can run the trade routes and gobble up entire regions of goods. If a system is put in place where freighters are prevented from moving trade goods, this entire problem is solved.

Alerce
Posted - 2005.08.05 17:33:00 - [135]
 

So when do miners get a freighter sized ship to mine complete belts?
slots for like 10 a 15 stripminers on 1 ship?

Skarsnik
Caldari
DarkArch Corp
Posted - 2005.08.05 17:45:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: Talthrus
Quote:
I don't want freightors nerfed necessarily. But CCP needs to address the issues on volumes originally set for Indy's on trading suddenly have to endure 5 times the haul volume. You cant just adjust trade volumes up, as freightors will just gobble that up as well. The only fix I see would be that all trade items get the "Can't be put in a planck compressor" flag and freightors work like a secure container, i.e. putting trade items in a freightor destroys the item. This would allow them to move player made compnents and trit, but not npc goods.


I completely agree. I believe the root problem being freighters is the fact that they can run the trade routes and gobble up entire regions of goods. If a system is put in place where freighters are prevented from moving trade goods, this entire problem is solved.


Theres only one small problem with your intended solution - if you ban frieghters from hauling trade goods - then the vast quantities they are intended to haul for outpost construction and POS fuels will be invalidated and hence the major use for them crippled although not all together out of the picture...

Nyxus
Amarr
Fat J
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2005.08.05 19:12:00 - [137]
 

Quote:
Theres only one small problem with your intended solution - if you ban frieghters from hauling trade goods - then the vast quantities they are intended to haul for outpost construction and POS fuels will be invalidated and hence the major use for them crippled although not all together out of the picture...


Set all NPC Trade Items so they can't be compressed by planck compression or they are destroyed. Set all freightors to planck compression similar to a secure can.

Unless you are hauling 100km3 of Exotic dancers, Quafe, and a few janitors to clean the mess then it shouldnt effect most outpost construction. Or just set the appropriate POS fuels to a "can be compressed" state.

Ahh.....thank you Occam, your sharpness always cuts to the heart of the matter.

Nxyus

EDIT- Maybe ASCN and [5] get an exemption....there parties are the only one who may need dancers in that volume. Or janitors.

Nikko Forte
Amarr
Dead Flesh Corp
Posted - 2005.08.06 04:53:00 - [138]
 

;/

Sobeseki Pawi
Minmatar
Insurance Claim Services
Posted - 2005.08.06 04:55:00 - [139]
 

Bring on the Light Freighters.

MrPops
Caldari
Foundation
Sodalitas XX
Posted - 2005.08.06 06:59:00 - [140]
 

Welcome to EVE folks. Sink or swim. All the people complaining here would be doing the same thing if they had a freighter. Envy is a four letter word Twisted Evil

Who wants to start a website to place bets on how the market will not be ruined. How about 100 million to start? Wanna bet?

Lets think about the author's key operative phrase "I just went to my usual little trade route Maut -> Villore" SO some guy disrupts anothers "usual" morning coffee and the sky is falling. Twisted Evil

Like a lot of you around here like to say. Adapt or leave Cool

Raindrop
Aliastra
Posted - 2005.08.06 07:59:00 - [141]
 

Aparently someone had the ship and the isk to buy stuff in large quanteties.

If you can do it, do it. It's an open market. Live with it.

Eve is an ever changing universe get used to it and adapt. And sometimes you will miss the boat. Get on the next one.

sonofollo
Caldari
Doomheim
Posted - 2005.08.06 08:04:00 - [142]
 

Ive been thinking a bit more - more sales tax on large nPC orders over a certain volume or amount
Tweak enhance and improve the NPC goods trade market
Players to get into low sec and 0.0 NPC areas to trade for more profit
More rewards for hauling agents (manufacturing and marketing) you still ned NPC trade goods for most of those missions ie bring 2000 hydrogen batteries back to me and ill give you x LP and ISK.

But allow freighters through empire the main ones whining are those that wont get into low sec and make a killing where freighters dare to tread.

Kerby Lane
ZER0.
IT Alliance
Posted - 2005.08.06 08:52:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: Olivin
Basically CCP nerfed highways and established NWO in order to promote regional markets development. CCP also implemented outposts and sovereignty in order to develop 0.0. For this purpose, CCP introduced capital ships. Freighters to help supply POS, build outposts and improve 0.0 logistics and dreads to destroy POS and freighters. Dreads are not allowed above 0.4. POS are not allowed above 0.4. Outposts are not allowed above 0.4. See the pattern? Freighters should not be allowed above 0.4.




Freighters cant directly supply POSes. They are station to station only.
Freighter can be destroyed by small fleet of battleships with 1*20km distruptor.

Hovewer to build dread and any capital construction parts people need trit in large quantaties and markets for it is in high security.


sonofollo
Caldari
Doomheim
Posted - 2005.08.06 09:01:00 - [144]
 

the only way to create markets in low sec for low end minerals is to start shifting other high end equipment - implant and other items into low sec - where hte markets are the players migrate except for the carebear in which case they stay in empire.

MOS DEF
0utbreak
Posted - 2005.08.06 11:25:00 - [145]
 

Originally by: TIO 101
how many suicide kessy's would it take to kill a freighter >:]

Rephrase: How long would the server node last before breaking down while you try this?
Laughing

Vilsix
Posted - 2005.08.06 11:36:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: MOS DEF
Originally by: TIO 101
how many suicide kessy's would it take to kill a freighter >:]

Rephrase: How long would the server node last before breaking down while you try this?
Laughing


How many Gankageddons would you need?

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2005.08.06 12:42:00 - [147]
 

Edited by: Maya Rkell on 06/08/2005 12:43:55
Any trade route that's too profitable gets changed.

Seen it before. *shrugs*

Professor McFly
Posted - 2005.08.06 20:39:00 - [148]
 

It's an unfortunate side effect of the freighter, but it's not as big a problem as it's made out to be. It's kinda like saying that when Mining Barges came out it would be the end of the game for any other miners. But clearly that's rubbish. Although I do think the 650mil per day should be looked into, and possibly adjusted, that does sound a bit out of whack.

Vaaliant
Posted - 2005.08.06 21:12:00 - [149]
 

Originally by: Professor McFly
It's an unfortunate side effect of the freighter, but it's not as big a problem as it's made out to be. It's kinda like saying that when Mining Barges came out it would be the end of the game for any other miners. But clearly that's rubbish. Although I do think the 650mil per day should be looked into, and possibly adjusted, that does sound a bit out of whack.


Professor what all these other whiners are not telling you is that the market makes it damn near impossible to even ATTEMPT 650 mill a day and that is simply because it doesn't cycle that fast. With regards to the roes route go ahead and watch it...its not cycling that fast. You may make a great 650 mill run a week or even every 2-4 days. You aren't going to make per day thats for sure.

Fidelis Deus
Posted - 2005.08.06 22:00:00 - [150]
 

What has happened here is that a veteran player takes adaantage of his wealth and knowledge to be able to conquer the market. While this is not illegal, it is quite a bit unfair.

The NPC trade market is designed for newer players who need the system to make isk, it's designed for people with low SP running trade routes.

What should be done is that the market should scale down, it should be made so that you a station will only buy so many goods before the price drops extremely low, this scale should make it possible for frieghters to still make a profit, but a comparatively small one which does not unbalance the game.

While most trade routes are like this, I believe that all routes should be like this, to make it a bit more fair and balanced.

it is possible for a freighter to make a profit hauling 100km3 of goods, but not enough to desstabilize the indys who only carry 15k m3 of goods.

For newer people flying indy's, the profit remains the same, and the NPC market remains a vital way of making isk.


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