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Kerby Lane
ZER0.
IT Alliance
Posted - 2005.08.04 15:39:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Harry Voyager
Edited by: Harry Voyager on 04/08/2005 15:32:03
Originally by: Jacque Custeau

I would support the current situation if it meant more trading content. It was one thing that Elite was very good at, and unfortunately lacking in EvE. Dynamic NPC markets tied to storyline events would be awesome (e.g. tobacco demand increases due to outbreak of conflict...)


We have dynamic markets!

Does noone remember the Great Northern War, when Zydrine quadruped in price, as the Northerner Zydrine miners killed eachother over ideals?

Does noone remember the Rebirth of Stain, when billions worth of Megacyte suddenly flooded the market, and billions of Tritanium were bought out of season, when Stain rebuilt its battleship fleet to challange Curse' domination of Estoria?

Does noone remember the Monopoly of Fountain, when Fountain's industrialists bought out the entire Cap Charger II BPO set, and started selling them at 10m a pop?

Does noone remember?


WTF are u takin about ?

It is not topic abou real player made economy of EVE. Is is about AFK trade grind.

Harry Voyager
Jolly Codgers
Posted - 2005.08.04 15:44:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Kerby Lane
Originally by: Harry Voyager
Edited by: Harry Voyager on 04/08/2005 15:32:03
Originally by: Jacque Custeau

I would support the current situation if it meant more trading content. It was one thing that Elite was very good at, and unfortunately lacking in EvE. Dynamic NPC markets tied to storyline events would be awesome (e.g. tobacco demand increases due to outbreak of conflict...)


We have dynamic markets!

Does noone remember the Great Northern War, when Zydrine quadruped in price, as the Northerner Zydrine miners killed eachother over ideals?

Does noone remember the Rebirth of Stain, when billions worth of Megacyte suddenly flooded the market, and billions of Tritanium were bought out of season, when Stain rebuilt its battleship fleet to challange Curse' domination of Estoria?

Does noone remember the Monopoly of Fountain, when Fountain's industrialists bought out the entire Cap Charger II BPO set, and started selling them at 10m a pop?

Does noone remember?


WTF are u takin about ?

It is not topic abou real player made economy of EVE. Is is about AFK trade grind.


I am trying to show people that there is a world out there beyond grinding the NPCs, that is just as dynamic as anything they are asking for, and just as profitable.

There is a Player Trade Market, and it is everything people are asking for in the NPC trade market.

Harry Voyager

Olivin
Gallente
Aquarium
Posted - 2005.08.04 15:47:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Kerby Lane
Originally by: Olivin
Give me a break! Regional markets should be based on local industrial and trading hubs, not on imported ships/goods from Yulai. BTW, thanks for another nail against freighters in Empire.


I just wondering if you trick me or really dont have a clue ?
Try to speak with t2 manufacturers before talking about regional markets and nailing freighters. BTW Yulai is not the hub of T2 equipment and in had never been.



Try to avoid topic switching. You were talking about ships (repackaged cruiser = 10000m3 and r BS = 50000m3) and I replied to you. Now you are suddenly talking about t2 manufactures? Please, feel free to enlighten me about high sec Empire space, t2 manufactures, regional markets and freighter capacity dependency in this content.

Originally by: Kerby Lane
I dont thing whole empire logistics ( both goods and minersl) should be nerfed because
you are not satisfied with NPC markets. Better nerf the NPC as should not be so profitable in high sec anyway.


Empire logistics was just fine before freighters. Freighters needed to develop and improve 0.0. There is nothing to improve in Empire high space.

Olivin

Are you sure you mean logistics and not NPC trading ?



Yes, I was answering to your comment about Empire logistics.

Olivin

Harry Voyager
Jolly Codgers
Posted - 2005.08.04 15:55:00 - [64]
 

Empire Logistis is *not* just fine, and hasn't been for a very long time. As I keep trying to get through to you, Tritanium sells for 3+ isk a unit in the hub systems, but a mere 6 jumps away, drops to 1 isk a unit.

A three fold price difference over such a short distance indicates a severe logistics problem.

Harry Voyager

Kerby Lane
ZER0.
IT Alliance
Posted - 2005.08.04 15:57:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Olivin
Originally by: Kerby Lane
Originally by: Olivin
Give me a break! Regional markets should be based on local industrial and trading hubs, not on imported ships/goods from Yulai. BTW, thanks for another nail against freighters in Empire.


I just wondering if you trick me or really dont have a clue ?
Try to speak with t2 manufacturers before talking about regional markets and nailing freighters. BTW Yulai is not the hub of T2 equipment and in had never been.



Try to avoid topic switching. You were talking about ships (repackaged cruiser = 10000m3 and r BS = 50000m3) and I replied to you. Now you are suddenly talking about t2 manufactures? Please, feel free to enlighten me about high sec Empire space, t2 manufactures, regional markets and freighter capacity dependency in this content.




Basiacally there are T1 and T2 cruisers.
t2 are not produced in every region and still have repackaged size of 10000m3.
Battleships could be produced everythere but they are usually sold in secure space and you need freighter to transport them in bulk.

So to satisfy the demand for cruisers (t2 in this case) in different region industrials are a bit small. To move battleships to 0.0 industrals are a bit small too. Option to contract empire freighters is irrelevant because there is no such service widely available in timely fashion.

Ace Garpy
Caldari
hirr
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2005.08.04 16:07:00 - [66]
 

Oh the drama!

A common market and the player with the freighter makes a huge hit of money. Fair enough I say!

I only have a Badger II but I don't see this as an exploit at all. Just some guy who has worked hard, made a lot of money and is now turning that into even higher profit. Well done him I say! No loophole there..just a market working similar to real life!

Majin Buu
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2005.08.04 16:13:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Harry Voyager
Empire Logistis is *not* just fine, and hasn't been for a very long time. As I keep trying to get through to you, Tritanium sells for 3+ isk a unit in the hub systems, but a mere 6 jumps away, drops to 1 isk a unit.

A three fold price difference over such a short distance indicates a severe logistics problem.

Harry Voyager


thats what you get from people being lazy. If theres such a price diff between hub systems and other systems 3 jumps away then why isnt everyone buying this trit at 1 isk/unit and then moving it 3 jumps and reselling at 2 isk/unit?


Nikko Forte
Amarr
Dead Flesh Corp
Posted - 2005.08.04 17:24:00 - [68]
 

I think alot of people here are misunderstanding the topic's main point.

1 Man in a freighter has taken the livihood of around 100 others.

I myself used to do this trade route quit commonly... Since monday it has been impossible for anyone to do it because that 1 person is the only one able to now. He controls the NPC market on long limb roes :D

And if you say "that doesnt effect the player economy at all" well yes it does. The fact that 1 person is getting 650mil from this each time he does it is feeding a huge amount of isk into eve. And even if he does somehow lose it to a fleet of suicide ravens or something, by then he will have enough to buy 50 more of the freighter. Oh, btw I talked to the guy who is doing it and yes he is in a NPC corp. He is an alt.

Hllaxiu
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2005.08.04 17:56:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Harry Voyager

Does noone remember the Monopoly of Fountain, when Fountain's industrialists bought out the entire Cap Charger II BPO set, and started selling them at 10m a pop?



Which fountain corp has/had the cap recharger 2 bpo?

Amaron Ghant
Caldari
Black Thorne Corporation
Black Thorne Alliance
Posted - 2005.08.04 17:57:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Nikko Forte

1 Man in a freighter has taken the livihood of around 100 others.
.


And that my friend is what we in the west like to call "capitalism"

Good luck to him whoever he is.


Nikko Forte
Amarr
Dead Flesh Corp
Posted - 2005.08.04 18:01:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Amaron Ghant
Originally by: Nikko Forte

1 Man in a freighter has taken the livihood of around 100 others.
.


And that my friend is what we in the west like to call "capitalism"

Good luck to him whoever he is.




We also call them monopolies, which get broken up by our government.

Amaron Ghant
Caldari
Black Thorne Corporation
Black Thorne Alliance
Posted - 2005.08.04 18:17:00 - [72]
 

Edited by: Amaron Ghant on 04/08/2005 18:18:26
Adapt or die, its up to you


Jezala
Repo Industries
R.E.P.O.
Posted - 2005.08.04 18:52:00 - [73]
 

hehe I recommend busting his monopoly. A team of 8-10 battleships (insured please) should be able to do it. Just catch him after he jumps. Be sure you have some freighters near by to pick up the loot. The loot should help offset the cost of losing the battleships.

Vanesa Garcia
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2005.08.04 18:55:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Majin Buu
Originally by: Harry Voyager
Empire Logistis is *not* just fine, and hasn't been for a very long time. As I keep trying to get through to you, Tritanium sells for 3+ isk a unit in the hub systems, but a mere 6 jumps away, drops to 1 isk a unit.

A three fold price difference over such a short distance indicates a severe logistics problem.

Harry Voyager


thats what you get from people being lazy. If theres such a price diff between hub systems and other systems 3 jumps away then why isnt everyone buying this trit at 1 isk/unit and then moving it 3 jumps and reselling at 2 isk/unit?




Nobody lazy, just Harry exaggerating a little and not taking on account that one freighter will fill trit demand in one run. Freighters are good to make billions selling NPC trade gods. That is the fact.



Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2005.08.04 18:57:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Hllaxiu
Originally by: Harry Voyager

Does noone remember the Monopoly of Fountain, when Fountain's industrialists bought out the entire Cap Charger II BPO set, and started selling them at 10m a pop?



Which fountain corp has/had the cap recharger 2 bpo?


Yeah, I'm kinda curious about that one as well.
The silence is a bit deafening.

Nyxus
Amarr
Fat J
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2005.08.04 19:02:00 - [76]
 

Here is how NPC trading works for those who comment without ever doing it or any firsthand knowledgeRolling Eyes. We will use the Roe example since its been brought up.

Price p/u starts at 2544-->it slowly drops over a 30hour timeframe to, say, 2350---->then it pops back up suddenly to 2544 and starts over. Got that? Good.

The lowest price in the cycle is dictated by the volume that was traded during that cycle. So a bunch of people trading roes meant that it "popped up" at 2400 rather than falling. This is the balancing factor.


A couple of points:

1) Prior to frieghtors, a single person with a bunch of money could not effect the market significantly. They could buy, but not transport them fast enough to make a significant impact. I know this for a fact as I with several other associates would buy *billions* worth and move them. Extremely tedious, but for those with market knowledge and a spreadsheet it was effective.

2)Because a freightor moves roughly 2.7 *billion* worth of roes in one move, and it trades the *entire* amount in one shot, and it makes this run a couple of hundred times a day it forces the "popup" price to rise.....dramatically. In fact, within roughly 9 days of seeing the first frieghtor on this route it was destroyed. Where before literally hundreds of players could trade this and not destroy it, now maybe 5 or less players have destroyed the market as the price now pops up at 2480.

3)This is not an isolated incident. Examine the other smaller trading routes. Mangled by freightors who literally make 750m+ isk an hour (not an exaggeration) without traveling through low sec (or at most one) while in noob corps.

It's sad because it completely forces newer players (and older ones without a frieghtor) out of trading. And this was a REALLY good profession for new folks because it there was a low sp requirment and it taught them how to read and use the market, as well as travel around the universe.

Please understand that the trade routes are being destroyed by....roughly what 20 or 30 freightors in empire? If 30 people stripped every belt in all the noob systems within a 10 day period and left no roids would there not be an outcry and a hotfix? How is this any different?

Nyxus


Olivin
Gallente
Aquarium
Posted - 2005.08.04 19:11:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Nyxus
Here is how NPC trading works for those who comment without ever doing it or any firsthand knowledgeRolling Eyes. We will use the Roe example since its been brought up.

Price p/u starts at 2544-->it slowly drops over a 30hour timeframe to, say, 2350---->then it pops back up suddenly to 2544 and starts over. Got that? Good.

The lowest price in the cycle is dictated by the volume that was traded during that cycle. So a bunch of people trading roes meant that it "popped up" at 2400 rather than falling. This is the balancing factor.


A couple of points:

1) Prior to frieghtors, a single person with a bunch of money could not effect the market significantly. They could buy, but not transport them fast enough to make a significant impact. I know this for a fact as I with several other associates would buy *billions* worth and move them. Extremely tedious, but for those with market knowledge and a spreadsheet it was effective.

2)Because a freightor moves roughly 2.7 *billion* worth of roes in one move, and it trades the *entire* amount in one shot, and it makes this run a couple of hundred times a day it forces the "popup" price to rise.....dramatically. In fact, within roughly 9 days of seeing the first frieghtor on this route it was destroyed. Where before literally hundreds of players could trade this and not destroy it, now maybe 5 or less players have destroyed the market as the price now pops up at 2480.

3)This is not an isolated incident. Examine the other smaller trading routes. Mangled by freightors who literally make 750m+ isk an hour (not an exaggeration) without traveling through low sec (or at most one) while in noob corps.

It's sad because it completely forces newer players (and older ones without a frieghtor) out of trading. And this was a REALLY good profession for new folks because it there was a low sp requirment and it taught them how to read and use the market, as well as travel around the universe.

Please understand that the trade routes are being destroyed by....roughly what 20 or 30 freightors in empire? If 30 people stripped every belt in all the noob systems within a 10 day period and left no roids would there not be an outcry and a hotfix? How is this any different?

Nyxus




And I thought we will never see sense comments regarding freighters in secure space. Thanks you!

Olivin


Bobby Wilson
Gallente
Posted - 2005.08.04 21:14:00 - [78]
 

Secure empire trade routes suck. Demand or supply for all items should be low-sec only, so that freighters can't do them without a substantial risk of death.

Don't nerf freighters, nerf stupid secure empire, afk-able trade routes.

BGW

Allen Deckard
Gallente
Roadking Hawg's
Posted - 2005.08.04 21:39:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Kerby Lane
Are NPC goods economy of EVE ?
Prove me wrong but I always thought that player made economy is the true EVE economy ?
Freighters in empuire are very good for player made economy.


Exactly how are freighters good for player made economy?
I thought that making regions separated by all these jumps basically isolating them was good for the economy?
Now indroducing a ship that basically joins these markets back together again is good for the economy.

You guys need to make up your mind.

Allen Deckard
Gallente
Roadking Hawg's
Posted - 2005.08.04 21:42:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Harry Voyager
Empire Logistis is *not* just fine, and hasn't been for a very long time. As I keep trying to get through to you, Tritanium sells for 3+ isk a unit in the hub systems, but a mere 6 jumps away, drops to 1 isk a unit.

A three fold price difference over such a short distance indicates a severe logistics problem.

Harry Voyager


You need to tell me where it sells for 1 isk per unit. If you can show me someplace ANYPLACE in empire that it sells for 1 isk per unit I will buy it up to and including 400mil units. I fly everywhere and call you out say your full of crap.

Allen Deckard
Gallente
Roadking Hawg's
Posted - 2005.08.04 21:44:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: UglyBugly
Edited by: UglyBugly on 04/08/2005 08:21:14
If he has the money to flatten the marketbefore he moves, then he had the money to do it before also.
That part the freighter didn't change. So if he does it now and not before he must have been quite daft.

The only thing is that he can move the whole lot in one trip now. That much I grant. Giving him time to hit other markets or do other stuff.

But the economic outcome for him and you should still be the same.

And remember: He's doing the trade route too. And he is apparently not ****ed. He is just better than you. And here I am talking about the char - not the player.





Quit repeting the same thing over and over. I can buy every npc product in an entire region that is low but if I can't move it it doesnt mean crap. just having the isk to buy it means nothing.

OffBeaT
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2005.08.04 22:21:00 - [82]
 

well, in truth if you dont wont them too own your markets, then you need too go too war with them i guess.

if they can do that kind of market damage too you then you need too start thinking of them as a real competive thret in your home systems. start shooting at them then maybe they wont come around you hope. Smile

Grey Area
Caldari
Posted - 2005.08.05 00:10:00 - [83]
 

Am I missing something here?

I don't trade in this way, but...

This guy buys all the stuff in one go, leaving no stock. Fair enough. Can't other traders put in buy orders for the roes at that point? And won't the highest price buy order fill first? I dunno what the price is, but if you want to continue your market, be prepared to pay a bit more for your stock. If this guy has placed a buy order, then you can see it on the market and all you have to do is bid 0.01 higher...so why is your trade "destroyed"?

From what I can see, it's not his problem, it's yours. Welcome to the world of market forces.

UglyBugly
Posted - 2005.08.05 00:12:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Nyxus
Here is how NPC trading works for those who comment without ever doing it or any firsthand knowledgeRolling Eyes.



Equally represented on both sides, thank you.

Show me ANY trade route that can be traded hundred times in a day by a freighter or even an indy without flattening, and I'll hand you 100 mil right there. And If he can fly back and forth hundreds of times each day, then where is it you can't get into that market?
He cant have bought for hundreds of 2,7 billion loads before starting. Or tens for that matter. So somewhere in there must be holes where other traders can enter.

Avon, Olivin and Nyxus for that matter:
Why didnt this guys flatten the market before and ship it in indys, if he had the isk and it was so profitable?
He wouldnt have to worry about shipping speed if he was the sole player on the market.
I would REALLY like to hear your thoughts on this.

Btw: Funny as you claim to have authority on something where you by your own claim is being outmaneuvered.

And as far as noobs go: The trade routes noobs can touch with their wallets, serious traders wouldnt touch. Plenty of goods and opportunities.

without
Posted - 2005.08.05 01:10:00 - [85]
 

no trade route should make more than 5mil an hour without going into 0.0
make it possible for a freighter to make 500mil, going 10jumps through 0.0
that would make it a good way for the medium to small PVP corp to make isk
protect their frieghter through 10 0.0 jumps and make half a bil

perhaps even sell low end minerals in NPC stations at base price (in stations that dont have factories) thus anotehr use for freighter also a nice isk sink

but no trade route should be remotely profitable without going into unsecure space, and only 0.0 routes should have the good profit

Rawne Karrde
Bre-X Interstellar Shipyards
Ejectile Dysfunction
Posted - 2005.08.05 01:21:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Nikko Forte
I think alot of people here are misunderstanding the topic's main point.

1 Man in a freighter has taken the livihood of around 100 others.

I myself used to do this trade route quit commonly... Since monday it has been impossible for anyone to do it because that 1 person is the only one able to now. He controls the NPC market on long limb roes :D

And if you say "that doesnt effect the player economy at all" well yes it does. The fact that 1 person is getting 650mil from this each time he does it is feeding a huge amount of isk into eve. And even if he does somehow lose it to a fleet of suicide ravens or something, by then he will have enough to buy 50 more of the freighter. Oh, btw I talked to the guy who is doing it and yes he is in a NPC corp. He is an alt.


Ok So what your saying is that 100 people used to do this route bringing in 650 mil intot he game. Now one person is doing it and getting the 650 mil. How is that feeding anymore isk into the game than before? This thread topic needs to be changed to "someone beat me out in the long-limb roe market" Hate to say it but thats capitalism baby, adapt.

Bhaal
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2005.08.05 01:32:00 - [87]
 

Quote:
Ok So what your saying is that 100 people used to do this route bringing in 650 mil intot he game. Now one person is doing it and getting the 650 mil. How is that feeding anymore isk into the game than before? This thread topic needs to be changed to "someone beat me out in the long-limb roe market" Hate to say it but thats capitalism baby, adapt.



I agree 100%.

If combat PvP is going to be as ruthless as it is in this game, so should every other form of PvP...

Chiralos
Merchant Princes
Posted - 2005.08.05 01:42:00 - [88]
 

It appears that the predicted flattening of NPC trade routes has occurred (or is occurring). The money to do it was always around, its just that no-one bothered because the hauling cost was too high to make it worthwhile.

I'm not sure this is "ruining the economy" - some sectors of the economy are presumably really getting a boost from freighters. It does seem that it is allowing a few players to capture a large amount of the potential NPC trade profit.

I can't honestly say people shouldn't be able to do this though. But ... c'mon, let's see you guys flying in player corporations, and let's have some decent trade wars. It'll be fun.

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Deja Thoris
Invicta.
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2005.08.05 01:44:00 - [89]
 

This is wrong.

Its taking advantage of poor game mechanics to make a profit not commesurate with the skill or effort required.

This is the trade route equivalent of farming complexes.

Bhaal
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2005.08.05 01:50:00 - [90]
 

Quote:
This is wrong.

Its taking advantage of poor game mechanics to make a profit not commesurate with the skill or effort required.

This is the trade route equivalent of farming complexes.


Same damn thing the T2 lottery does, yet CCP has had that in game for over a year...

Just another form of monopoly in EVE, the DEV's seem to like it that way, so rock on Freighter-Traders!


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